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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 6:41:45 AM

MAINEiacMISTRESS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Thanks for your concern, but I'm not worried about a lawsuit. Defamation is brutally hard to prove, my sub is a damn good lawyer, and three women made written claims on Fetlife that he's raped them.

If that many women have been raped by him, they should be going to the police about it...although sadly, given the circumstance, they may feel the court would consider it "consensual" since kink was involved. It's difficult to prove rape in many cases--and skilled predators are able to manipulate a situation so that any evidence is so obscured by certain details as to appear that they are blameless.
I feel the host of this place is purposely endangering her guests, at the very least it's negligence by her allowing him to continue to "hunt" there. If she is so blind to not one but SEVERAL accusations of rape, then she's showing lack of integrity by allowing him continue attending. Gee whiz, if the guy was RUDE to people he'd probably be kicked out...but rape several women, oh yeah let's KEEP him at the risk of destroying everything we've worked to create.

Isn't SAFETY one of the core values of the BDSM community?

Far too many women I know in the vanilla world have been raped by men they dated while everyone around them KNEW the man's past but didn't WARN them...which makes these people an accessory. Victims later are left wondering why everyone just let it happen, furthering the sense of betrayal, and making it even harder to ever trust again.
Personally Steven, I wouldn't keep My mouth shut about this. I have thrown Myself into the fire to for situations like this in the past, FUCK MY POPULARITY, if it makes people aware I'm willing to make that sacrifice.

However, I do see Your point about the possibility of the entire group imploding and the effect on the local community...have you considered talking privately with other veteran members who attend to see if enough people can unify on this matter to pressure the host?

(in reply to DarkSteven)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 6:52:04 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wendel27

Steven I haven't read all of the posts in this thread so it's possible that my reply is going to redundant. Personally I think that if you have genuine worries about an individual and have reasonable suspicion tht there may be a serial rapist that you know of, however tangenitally, then you should go to the police and report all you know. It's not you or indeed anyone else's responsibility to ''investigate'' this individual. Either you think the claims are spurious in which case i'd do nothing or you think there's some merit to them in which case, in my opinion, you are beholden to act. Remove the fetish element [which I appreciate is not at all easy] of this story. You have a man accused of raping lots of women. Is warning some individuals who may come into contact with him about rumours regarding his crimes satisfactory? I'd suggest not and so if you believe there is any truth at all in this matter go to the authorities.

I understand, particuarly if you are form America, that you may have some trepidation in doing so i'm not advocating this move as entirely risk free. I'm just giving you advice as to what I would do in your difficult situation.

This reply gave me a lot of insight.

First, I am convinced that something unsavory is indeed happening.

Second, while I do have a desire to protect the community, I have far less of a stake in this than others do. Should they decide to press charges, they can. But it's their call, not mine. This applies to the women that have alleged rape, as well as several who are vociferously condemning both the man and those in the community that are not shunning him.

Third, if someone asks me my take on the man, I will tell all I know, factually. If I'm not asked, it's not my place to volunteer information.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Wendel27)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 7:04:14 AM

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Steven if you're convinced something unsavoury is happening but don't want to directly get involved might I reccomend another option? Make an anonymous call [use a payphone] and tell someone about your suspicions and the reasons for them and leave it at that. If this man is a serial rapist for all anyone knows the police are already searching for him and your tip might be a part of the puzzle that eventually deals with him. This way you don't have to pressure anyone to do anything they don't want to, you don't have to place yourself into anyone's line of sight and you'll have discharged any moral obligation to protecting future victims if this man is indeed a heinous criminal.

If you want to remain anonymous do make sure to use a payphone rather than any personal lines though. Either way I don't envy you your position, it's not at all easy.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 7:13:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wendel27

Steven if you're convinced something unsavoury is happening but don't want to directly get involved might I reccomend another option? Make an anonymous call [use a payphone] and tell someone about your suspicions and the reasons for them and leave it at that. If this man is a serial rapist for all anyone knows the police are already searching for him and your tip might be a part of the puzzle that eventually deals with him. This way you don't have to pressure anyone to do anything they don't want to, you don't have to place yourself into anyone's line of sight and you'll have discharged any moral obligation to protecting future victims if this man is indeed a heinous criminal.

If you want to remain anonymous do make sure to use a payphone rather than any personal lines though. Either way I don't envy you your position, it's not at all easy.

No way.

He is not on the run and hiding from the law. He is a regular attendee at play parties.

And I haven't seen a pay phone for years.

Like I say, if the accusers won't file charges, why should I?

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Wendel27)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 7:21:17 AM

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It's possible the accusers won't file charges because they're too intimidated to or traumatised to. Again this what i'm suggesting is only applicable if you have a genuine belief or suspicion this individual is guilty of the crimes he's being accused of. A serial rapist is likely to have more victims. If you feel he is then i'd urge you to say something to the police Steven.

I'm aware he's not on the run from the law but it's quite possible there are rapes being investigated [or possibly even other crimes] where the perpetrator is not known...and it could be him. Your tip might make all the difference. Then again it will probably be completely incedental but still better safe than sorry. Though I have to keep stressing only if, as you say, you reaaly feel there might be something behind the accusations.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 7:23:56 AM

Level

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Yeah, if something really happened, THEY need to step up.

_____________________________

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Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to DarkSteven)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 7:47:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
Edited to add: From what I saw on fetlife, this thing has exploded into a giant drama fest to the point that a new fetish was created to pick on the women who runs Scarlet Moons... any particular reason you felt it necessary to spread out the drama more by bringing it here?

Yeah, actually, she's the one fueling the drama. The originator of the term has posted the origin and meaning of what the code is that she is claiming is a hate group against her. It's a pretty straight forward explanation of where the term started.

I don't really care who's fueling the drama. I just noted that there was drama, and I'm wondering why it's being brought here.

I would guess it is because Steven is an actual nice guy who does not want women to be hurt, so he put it here to get opinions. I sincerely doubt him being jealous had anything to do with his questions. He has never done anything that I have seen to indicate he is anything but a straight up man.

_____________________________

yep

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 8:43:49 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wendel27

It's possible the accusers won't file charges because they're too intimidated to or traumatised to. Again this what i'm suggesting is only applicable if you have a genuine belief or suspicion this individual is guilty of the crimes he's being accused of. A serial rapist is likely to have more victims. If you feel he is then i'd urge you to say something to the police Steven.

I'm aware he's not on the run from the law but it's quite possible there are rapes being investigated [or possibly even other crimes] where the perpetrator is not known...and it could be him. Your tip might make all the difference. Then again it will probably be completely incedental but still better safe than sorry. Though I have to keep stressing only if, as you say, you reaaly feel there might be something behind the accusations.

Wendel, the only evidence is testimony. If the women don't want to testify, then I won't do them any favors by going to the cops and naming the women. And if I don't name them, there's nothing to say.

I have a genuine belief that something's up, but I don't know what. While saying "No" clearly indicates lack of consent, there are some gray areas. I suspect that there's a lack of clear consent such as saying "Yes", but that it's murky. I wasn't there, but I have to assume that five separate accusations must have something behind them.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Wendel27)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 10:00:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
Wendel, the only evidence is testimony. If the women don't want to testify, then I won't do them any favors by going to the cops and naming the women. And if I don't name them, there's nothing to say.

I have a genuine belief that something's up, but I don't know what. While saying "No" clearly indicates lack of consent, there are some gray areas. I suspect that there's a lack of clear consent such as saying "Yes", but that it's murky. I wasn't there, but I have to assume that five separate accusations must have something behind them.

And that's the problem, right there. It's also what would be concerning Me. Even just what's been posted, it's gone from consent/non consent, to rape, to now criminal serial rape where there are suggestions to contacting authorities to "tell them what is known" because now people think the guy might have unsolved rapes that he's guilty of.

That's just what's happened here on this thread in 24 hours. I've seen the other threads/journals on Fet and while there is more information there about what is happening in the community, the knee jerk reactions are astounding.

I do want to applaud the folks in the area who are organizing the classes for new folks about education surrounding rape and related issues. To Me, that is a good step in the right direction. I hope there will be a lot of people supporting that.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to DarkSteven)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 10:18:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden

Which error are you willing to risk. Type I or Type II error: doing something when you shouldn't, or not doing something when you should.

That choice isn't as black and white as you're put it here.

For starters, in the "not doing something when you should" option, the thing that SHOULD be done is convince these women to go to the cops, NOT warning other people without evidence.

Secondly, in the "doing something when you shouldn't" option, if you assume that the "doing something" thing is warning other women away from him, the cost of making a mistake there is larger then not doing something and making a mistake.

This guy isn't being accused of being a violent serial rapist who forcefully drags women of the street at gun point, this guy is being accused of making the line between consent and non-consent too blurry for his own safety, and the mental health of others. That means that any woman who he plays with who takes HER responsibility to draw her own lines is fine. So if you're wrong, and this guy hasn't committed rape, and you destroy his life and reputation by contacting strangers to inform them he's a rapist, the cost of that mistake is far larger than the cost of another woman putting herself into a situation where she's not clear about the boundaries that are HER responsibility to be clear about, learning a valuable lesson, and making the community at large a safer place.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to evesgrden)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 10:23:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wendel27

It's possible the accusers won't file charges because they're too intimidated to or traumatised to.

Bullshit!

People to intimidated and traumatized to speak about a rape don't tell their friends, their community, and post stuff about it online.

The ONLY people that haven't been told about this are the cops. No rape kits where done, no hospital visits even made. And yet the story is easily told to people OTHER THAN the authorities that should be dealing with this event.

That tells me that it's more than likely that it isn't a trauma or intimidation that makes them fear to speak out, but the fact that they know that they where less than clear about not consenting to whatever they claim after the fact to not have consented to.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to Wendel27)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 10:32:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Third, if someone asks me my take on the man, I will tell all I know, factually. If I'm not asked, it's not my place to volunteer information.

That I think is a very healthy and good position to take.

Combine that with educating newbies when you can about the fact that it's very much ok to ask questions to a large variety of people to establish a top's reputation before playing with them, as well as reenforcing that establishing consent is as much the sub's as it is the top's duty, (things I know you're not shy about doing) and you are actually protect your, instead at aiding it in falling apart more.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to DarkSteven)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 10:37:02 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

I would guess it is because Steven is an actual nice guy who does not want women to be hurt, so he put it here to get opinions. I sincerely doubt him being jealous had anything to do with his questions. He has never done anything that I have seen to indicate he is anything but a straight up man.

I don't think jealousy had anything to do with him asking the question either, but I do feel that if there are hints of jealousy in him, it's more important for him to realize it will be harder for him to be perfectly unbiassed in this matter... because by the mere fact that he's annoyed/jealous/frustrated at this guy, he is emotionally involved in this matter.

As far as the drama goes. The question could have been asked leaving 75% of the details not relevant to the essence of the question "should I warn other people about rumors I heard about a person's reputation?" out, leaving all the drama where the drama was, and focussing on the thing he actually sought advice on.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to JstAnotherSub)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 10:42:18 AM

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I believe what I am saying is being misinterpreted. I have no idea whether this man is a rapist or not. The advice I have given is for Steven to decide himself whether he believes there is merit in the accusations or not. Steven indicated that he is of the opinion that something has happened. In that case Steven believes there is a reasonable chance that this individual is a serial rapist. Again I have no idea what this information is based on. Given the preceding I would advise anyone with such a belief to appraise the authorities of their fears. That's it. There is no knee jerk reaction as I have no reaction to the man in question. I'm not commenting on whether or not he is guilty, I have no way of knowing, i'm just asking Steven what he thinks and then saying what I would do in the same, difficult situation based on that. It is not up to the ''community'' to ''police'' itself it's up to adults to be responsible nothing more. If rumours are flying round noone has any business propogating them as they are just heresay. If however there is more than that, then equally, disqualifying someone from a party whom you believe to be guilty of multiple rapes and washing one's hand's of the business scarcely seems appropriate.

It's not bullshit to suggest that rape victims might not want to go through the ordeal of an examination, interview and possibly trial yet be able to tell other people about it Ishtar. It's entirely plausible. It's also credible that this is all so much codswallop and simply malicious sniping. I have literally no idea. I am basing my response on Steven's own interpretation of the matter as he asked for advice.

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 10:51:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wendel27

It's not bullshit to suggest that rape victims might not want to go through the ordeal of an examination, interview and possibly trial yet be able to tell other people about it Ishtar.

Ah, that's absolutely plausible.

However, that has got nothing to do with being too traumatized or intimidated to talk to the cops, which is what I called bullshit on.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to Wendel27)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 10:56:36 AM

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These women are adults. If they have not been willing to file a report, then a man completely uninvolved other than hearing rumors (which is what this is) has NO business calling the cops and giving them the man's name and the women who are blathering all over the internet to anyone who will listen that they were raped.

The concept that these women are so traumatized they can't talk to the police has two sides. Have you considered that maybe they don't want to file a report because they KNOW they have responsibility in this as well? While many will take this as a "blame the victim" stance, it is reality. If you consent to sex, and to BDSM activities but lack the ability to know what you are consenting to, you are responsible for the outcome, just as much as a college girl who is blackout drunk is responsible for having sex with the campus geek, regardless of regret after the fact.

And yes, you have indeed implied this man is a serial rapist who the police might be interested for unsolved cases. Quite frankly, your willingness to ruin someone's life over rumors is astounding.

(in reply to Wendel27)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 10:58:59 AM

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Some people do though Ishtar i've experienced this professionally. People react in different ways to something like rape and it's not uncommon for people to be absolutely loathe to speak to the police, with all that that can entail and yet feel comfortable enough to tell their friends. I don't know but i'd guess an online format would make things even easier. That doesn't mean this isn't drivel plennty of people won't talk to the police because what they are saying is tripe aimed at maligning someone who has offended them for whatever ridiculous reason. I'm just saying it's not beyond the pale to envision reasons why these women might both be telling the truth and simultaneously refuse to tell the authorities.

I would never, ever reccommend someone to act based on heresay... particuarly in this scene. My advice is that if you have an honest held belief that a man is a rapist then, in my opinion, the best course of actions is to inform the police whether the gesture proves futile or otherwise.

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 11:05:04 AM

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How have I implied this man is a serial rapist Lafayette? I asked Steven whether he thought the accusations were true or just mudslinging. He thinks what is being said sounds true. I'm not implying anything I have no idea I am going soley on what I am being told. I don't know where you have got the idea that i'm willing to ruin someone's life over rumours. I have gone out of my way in nearly every post to condemn the idea of acting based on heresay. Twice I have stated that the ''community'' has no business ''policing'' itself and the people who attempt it are ususally woefully illequipped for the task. I simply asked Steven if he believed it and then gave what I consider sound advice accordingly. If I believed a man had raped five women I would consider it remiss of me not to inform the police. I appreciate that is not everyone's view and that is fair enough but my position seems to be being grossly misrepresented.

(in reply to Wendel27)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 11:07:30 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wendel27

Some people do though Ishtar i've experienced this professionally.

You're professionally involved with rape victims, yet you advice a third party to make an anonymous call in order to out rape victims to the police while at the same time speculating that they are too traumatized to be able to handle speaking to the cops?

Really?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wendel27

People react in different ways to something like rape and it's not uncommon for people to be absolutely loathe to speak to the police, with all that that can entail and yet feel comfortable enough to tell their friends.

Since when is "loathing" synonymous for "traumatized" and "intimidated"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wendel27

I would never, ever reccommend someone to act based on heresay... particuarly in this scene. My advice is that if you have an honest held belief that a man is a rapist then, in my opinion, the best course of actions is to inform the police whether the gesture proves futile or otherwise.

Anonymously informing the police based on rumor IS acting on hearsay.

The only action available not acting on hearsay, besides doing nothing, is counseling the women to talk to the cops themselves.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 5/5/2013 11:08:22 AM >

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to Wendel27)

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 11:11:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

There is a monthly party called Scarlet Moons. It's primarily for spanking. Tasha and I love going there and playing with each other there, and with others.

I have been mentoring for a program called the Colorado Mentors Program. Recently, the program came under fire for having a mentor who was accused of rape by at least five women in the community. Obviously, mentors should have good reputations, and his was crap. Although he is no longer with the program, the way the leadership responded has pissed off a major chunk of the community and inflamed feelings.

This guy, who I'll call B, has been attending Scarlet Moons for a couple of years. He doesn't play much, but he comes to socialize, sell his implements there, and show off his harem, which currently consists of two or three lovelies but has been as many as five or six in the past. I have seen him bring women into his harem there, and he can do it very quickly - he's damn good.

He is a good friend of the woman, D, who runs Scarlet Moons. She sent out an email saying that he is her friend, and will continue to be a guest there, and anyone who cannot deal with that and keep drama out of the party is not welcome.

Naturally, there are some in the community that claim that she is "harboring" B and that party attendees are "supporting" an accused rapist. I have no problems with ignoring that - I attend where I want.

My issue is that Fetlife shows party attendees ahead of time. I could easily pick off the attendees-to-be that he would be interested in, open up conversations with them, and warn them of B. I want to head off any possible issues for them. If I do this, word will get out, and I will be made a central figure in a shitstorm. Tasha and I will also get banned from the parties. Since we're well known and liked there, it will cause the community to implode further.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Before reading the ongoing debate that I am sure this thread created I am going to give my opinion of the OP.

I wouldn't attend, period. And, I would be very fucking vocal to others as to exactly why I would not attend. I won't be supportive of people or organizations that support activities I view as illegal, wrong, immoral, etc.. I also wouldn't want to count among my friends anyone that would.

To ME, it's a wussy play Steven. That whole, "well I really want to do XYZ and I really want to hang out with other people who love to do XYZ so I can do XYZ.so I am going to create whatever line of bullshit I can sell myself to make my support of this group okay to my own moral compass....etc etc etc." It's lame at best.

Either you own up to supporting this guys alleged behaviour so you can keep getting your groove on, or you take a higher road.

Edited to add...I realize my first bit was a bit harsh. I'm looking at the situation through some rather clouded glasses. I've seen too many similar situations where there were people that selfishly 'minded their own business'. Citing various reasons but when they were all stripped away, at the core it was selfishness..........even on my part. And people got hurt that didn't have to.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 5/5/2013 11:23:53 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to DarkSteven)

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