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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 2:05:32 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
Edited to add: From what I saw on fetlife, this thing has exploded into a giant drama fest to the point that a new fetish was created to pick on the women who runs Scarlet Moons... any particular reason you felt it necessary to spread out the drama more by bringing it here?


Yeah, actually, she's the one fueling the drama. The originator of the term has posted the origin and meaning of what the code is that she is claiming is a hate group against her. It's a pretty straight forward explanation of where the term started.


In case anyone else is curious, read the OP and the response by MasterGreyCO https://fetlife.com/groups/364/group_posts/3844050


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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 2:14:38 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
But, in at least one case, they met the man at her party and the hostess "sold" the man in question.

All this says to Me is that she observed him playing safely in her home. Not what he does outside of it, which may not have been what she knew about.


quote:

Some venues in our community will temporarily not allow someone to attend an event while they contemplate an an accusation. In which case, both sides are out until the organizer had heard both sides and any background evidence.
Yes, that is generally a request that happens on both sides. We've had that happen up here on a smaller issue. (There was a person who specifically was going out of their way to bring drama to the community dungeon and made it known they were going to confront the other party via phone prior to the event. Gotta love speaker phones.)

Might just be a case of different phrasing. Banned is a word that I tend to use in a permanent sense.



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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 2:21:49 PM   
kalikshama


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A BDSM blacklist

A Facebook-like site for kinksters stops users from naming alleged abusers, sparking debate over justice and safety

[fetlife] Terms of Use

...Prohibited Conduct

You agree that, while using BitLove’s Products and Services, you will not:

- Make criminal accusations against another member in a public forum.

Should Online Dating Sites Prevent Users From Naming Abusers?

[The comments were interesting]

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 3:27:41 PM   
petitespot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

I don't know if I'd label it as immaturity. The problem is, if these women are new to WIITWD, they may not realize that what he's doing is inappropriate or that they can say no.

They don't know any better when someone tells them, "If you were REALLY submissive, you would do XYZ". They live in fear that they are doing it wrong, that they will be rejected from the new life that they have just discovered and get labeled as not really submissive within the community. It's gets used as a form of emotional blackmail. They end up feeling like they can't say "No". It's for that very reason that many of the predator types go looking for novices. (It's also for that reason that many novices leave WIITWD after their first experience)





I almost always agree with what you write.
I don't agree with this. These women are all over 18.
Personal responsibility for who one chooses to let into their comfort zone.
I had no problem on my first day of crash landing into this lifestyle telling a dickhead to fuck off.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 3:46:36 PM   
evesgrden


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quote:


These women are adults. If they get into trouble then they learned a good lesson.


I generally like what you have to say and the way you think...... but frankly this sounds like rape is educational?

I would truly like to know what good lesson someone can learn from "getting into trouble"....(I'm from the era where "getting into trouble" meant being an unwed mother, not a euphamism for rape)

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 5:41:17 PM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: petitespot


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

I don't know if I'd label it as immaturity. The problem is, if these women are new to WIITWD, they may not realize that what he's doing is inappropriate or that they can say no.

They don't know any better when someone tells them, "If you were REALLY submissive, you would do XYZ". They live in fear that they are doing it wrong, that they will be rejected from the new life that they have just discovered and get labeled as not really submissive within the community. It's gets used as a form of emotional blackmail. They end up feeling like they can't say "No". It's for that very reason that many of the predator types go looking for novices. (It's also for that reason that many novices leave WIITWD after their first experience)





I almost always agree with what you write.
I don't agree with this. These women are all over 18.
Personal responsibility for who one chooses to let into their comfort zone.
I had no problem on my first day of crash landing into this lifestyle telling a dickhead to fuck off.

Well, bravo to you for having it all figured out on day one. Not everyone is so lucky.


The only thing that saved me from making some very foolish mistakes was that I tend over analyze things. (Keeping in mind that I was doing this before the internet was in every home) I had met up with a man who was very much like the guys that prey on women in the community (talking about real life, now) Respected, experienced, smooth talking. Luckily, I never got to the point where we were in a private environment, so leaving was easy. Let's also add that telling someone to "fuck off" face to face in an intimate environment is much more difficult than saying it online or at a coffee meeting.

I'll agree with being responsible for who you let into your comfort zone, but I also understand the feeling that you've been on the outside not fitting in, finally finding something that seems to fit and feeling like you have to conform to stay.





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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 5:57:26 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

Let's also add that telling someone to "fuck off" face to face in an intimate environment is much more difficult than saying it online or at a coffee meeting.



So because it's harder, it's okay not to set boundaries, let somebody push you too far without making that clear, and then ruin their life by blaming it on them?

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 6:04:59 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
From what I saw on fetlife, this thing has exploded into a giant drama fest to the point that a new fetish was created to pick on the women who runs Scarlet Moons... any particular reason you felt it necessary to spread out the drama more by bringing it here?


I brought it here to get some perspective on my own thoughts. That's all.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 6:39:12 PM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

Let's also add that telling someone to "fuck off" face to face in an intimate environment is much more difficult than saying it online or at a coffee meeting.



So because it's harder, it's okay not to set boundaries, let somebody push you too far without making that clear, and then ruin their life by blaming it on them?
Never at any point did I say it's okay. What I said is I understand how it happens. I understand "peer pressure" even if it's only perceived. Honestly, the only thing that saved me from making some truly horrible mistakes is that I'm a prude at heart.

And considering that no one here can claim an absolutely mistake free foray into WIITWD, we shouldn't be really quick to point fingers.


Yes, if a submissive fails to hold boundaries, they hold blame....but so does the person that ignores those boundaries.




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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 6:55:30 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden

quote:


These women are adults. If they get into trouble then they learned a good lesson.


I generally like what you have to say and the way you think...... but frankly this sounds like rape is educational?

I would truly like to know what good lesson someone can learn from "getting into trouble"....(I'm from the era where "getting into trouble" meant being an unwed mother, not a euphamism for rape)


It's not a euphemism for anything. When I said got into trouble, I meant they decided to not say no and continued for whatever reason. And then complaining it was rape afterwards when it really wasn't. It was just her having second thoughts afterwards about what she did. That's what I mean by trouble. Unfortunately this happens a lot in bdsm and with young women in particular and "newbies" <which I just don't understand this whole "newbie" thing>.

ETA: After reading that thread, all I can say is I felt like I was back in high school "Let's wear pins to show how much she doesn't like us" I mean, really?? Seriously? Is everyone 12 years old in that group?

Everytime I read such threads it makes me even happier that I am not a part of any groups whatsoever. They all become like this eventually and it just makes me laugh and shake my head.

Why would anyone want to be involved with so much drama??? Unless they like that drama......


< Message edited by littlewonder -- 5/4/2013 7:05:40 PM >


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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 7:33:57 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

And considering that no one here can claim an absolutely mistake free foray into WIITWD, we shouldn't be really quick to point fingers.




My mistakes are my own. As should everybody else's mistakes be their own.

I have little tolerance for people who make their mistakes other people's problem.



< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 5/4/2013 7:37:21 PM >


_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 7:58:53 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Any thoughts or suggestions?

My thought. I think you are a good man, Steven. I think you will do what good men do.


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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 8:32:53 PM   
OttersSwim


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Steven,

My opinion is that the event in question has been negatively compromised by having this person present. My advice would be to pass on the event and find other events where you can enjoy yourselves without compromising yourselves to be there. I would also advise not involving yourself in trying to warn anyone away from this person. There are others who have taken up that banner and you are not Batman.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 9:02:03 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


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Steven, if you believe these women accusing him, than I would work on getting them to report it to the police, than worry about warning future women.
I've seen a lot of good advice from a lot of women.
I wish it were on record, because I'm not convinced or willing to crucify someone, based on net statements. M

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 11:47:07 PM   
LadyPact


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The heck with that. It's threads like this that make Me glad I'm not a male top.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 12:29:39 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

The heck with that. It's threads like this that make Me glad I'm not a male top.


For me, they mostly remind me why I stay away from the local community.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 5:58:06 AM   
evesgrden


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden

quote:


These women are adults. If they get into trouble then they learned a good lesson.


I generally like what you have to say and the way you think...... but frankly this sounds like rape is educational?

I would truly like to know what good lesson someone can learn from "getting into trouble"....(I'm from the era where "getting into trouble" meant being an unwed mother, not a euphamism for rape)


It's not a euphemism for anything. When I said got into trouble, I meant they decided to not say no and continued for whatever reason. And then complaining it was rape afterwards when it really wasn't. It was just her having second thoughts afterwards about what she did. That's what I mean by trouble. Unfortunately this happens a lot in bdsm and with young women in particular and "newbies" <which I just don't understand this whole "newbie" thing>.

ETA: After reading that thread, all I can say is I felt like I was back in high school "Let's wear pins to show how much she doesn't like us" I mean, really?? Seriously? Is everyone 12 years old in that group?

Everytime I read such threads it makes me even happier that I am not a part of any groups whatsoever. They all become like this eventually and it just makes me laugh and shake my head.

Why would anyone want to be involved with so much drama??? Unless they like that drama......


quote:

When I said got into trouble, I meant they decided to not say no and continued for whatever reason. And then complaining it was rape afterwards when it really wasn't.



Devil's in the details. My understanding is that they did indeed say no and the continuation was not consensual. If I heard that repeatedly from a number of people, I'd start thinking "10,000 flies can't be wrong".

What really happened? I dunno..wasn't there. I've since seen the fetlife thread and don't get this wear-a-pin thing. I don't do public play, I'm not in the community. Went to BR and TES and such a few times years ago... like over 10 years ago. I have no patience for drama, or temper tantrums, or egos or any of that crap.

But I digress.

I'm inferring then that you don't consider rape to be a good lesson to learn.

Ok, so hypothetically, if half a dozen women you knew said that they had started to play with this cool guy they had recently met, and then changed their minds when they saw/experienced the direction play was taking and revoked consent (during a first meet/play session) and ignored their safewords etc, would you endorse him to others? Be silent when someone you know is new is charmed by him? What's the right thing to do or not do? I could give a rats ass about pins and circles ... this isn't even about kink or the community or social groups.

Which error are you willing to risk. Type I or Type II error: doing something when you shouldn't, or not doing something when you should.



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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 6:08:56 AM   
Duskypearls


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Any thoughts or suggestions?

My thought. I think you are a good man, Steven. I think you will do what good men do.



I second this, Bita.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 6:12:55 AM   
Wendel27


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Steven I haven't read all of the posts in this thread so it's possible that my reply is going to redundant. Personally I think that if you have genuine worries about an individual and have reasonable suspicion tht there may be a serial rapist that you know of, however tangenitally, then you should go to the police and report all you know. It's not you or indeed anyone else's responsibility to ''investigate'' this individual. Either you think the claims are spurious in which case i'd do nothing or you think there's some merit to them in which case, in my opinion, you are beholden to act. Remove the fetish element [which I appreciate is not at all easy] of this story. You have a man accused of raping lots of women. Is warning some individuals who may come into contact with him about rumours regarding his crimes satisfactory? I'd suggest not and so if you believe there is any truth at all in this matter go to the authorities.

I understand, particuarly if you are form America, that you may have some trepidation in doing so i'm not advocating this move as entirely risk free. I'm just giving you advice as to what I would do in your difficult situation.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/5/2013 6:24:26 AM   
LafayetteLady


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Rape is a horrible crime and no one deserves it. That is first and foremost.

So what to do with someone new charmed by someone who might not be great? First of all, make sure they realize that playing on a first date is a bad idea. As someone who is new, they don't yet have the tools or knowledge to make informed decisions. I get the concept of "sub frenzy" but I don't believe that should be an excuse for irresponsible behavior.

I don't know what happened in the situation here. I also don't get involved in public play, so often it can be difficult to understand why people throw caution to the wind and jump in with both feet in these things.

What I do know from being on here for about 8 years in one incarnation, and reading various articles regarding date rape is the media and some groups have really muddied the waters where defining rape is concerned. Hence we have college girls trying to absolve themselves of responsibility for getting black out drunk and having sex by crying rape when they wake up the next day and realize they behaved badly. I have seen many women on this site say they were raped, yet when they describe the events, it is clear that while they may have been manipulated, they weren't raped. They simply involved themselves in situations where they shouldn't. They were new, and use the "I didn't realize I could say no" or "he told me this was how it worked," going on to say that it was only later, when they learned a bit more about BDSM that they realized they were raped.

So simply *thinking* that this isn't what you agreed to, or that this isn't what you *thought* was going to happen, doesn't mean you were raped. Does it mean that the top in question behaved in a completely appropriate manner? Not necessarily. But it does mean that you can't claim you were raped. Every time a woman has sexual conduct that after the fact she realizes she didn't enjoy, or many didn't even want, it doesn't mean it translates to rape.

So what do you do? You better inform new people of safe play practices. You make sure they understand that they ALWAYS have the right to withdraw consent and expect that withdrawal to be respected. You make sure that they know they need to clearly withdraw that consent with more than a simple "no," in BDSM settings, since often "no" can be considered part of the scene. You make sure they understand that tops who tell them safe words are for sissies or not needed are not people they should play with. Finally, you make sure they know that if they ignore all of these safety precautions, they are putting themselves in situations where things can very likely not turn out how they want, but they are not necessarily in a position to call rape afterwards.

You don't bad mouth other tops based on rumors and innuendo when you have no facts. Sadly, you can't simply take a woman's word for things in BDSM situations because far too often, they seem to not understand that silently engaging in behavior they don't want is not withdrawing consent.

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