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RE: NSA leaker comes forward - 6/10/2013 5:18:04 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

How far America has fallen.


Democracy not your thing then?

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: NSA leaker comes forward - 6/10/2013 5:29:01 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

How far America has fallen.


Democracy not your thing then?


WTF are you talking about?

WHAT DEMOCRACY?

The only democracy we have in america is the ability to choose a new dictatorial regime between the bought and paid for socialists and commies after that its out of our hands.






_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: NSA leaker comes forward - 6/10/2013 5:31:42 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
I disagree. That question, as it stands, is misleading.


What question was that Jeff?


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(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: NSA leaker comes forward - 6/10/2013 5:39:34 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
I disagree. That question, as it stands, is misleading.

What question was that Jeff?

The question I'd like to ask (and I'm thinking I need to actually, so I need to find some time to start putting together a write up) would be a fairly worded question which started with a basic assessment of ALL of the domestic surveillance programs and then a graphic example of the capabilities of those systems. In other words, if they fairly asked the US public about what they are doing.

I just don't think Americans would go with it one iota if they were told even 50% of the truth.

edited to add
asking about it one piece at a time is a sort of divide & conquer strategy. But data analysis doesn't work like that. It's the aggregation of data that becomes massively powerful. Even the most trivial details suddenly shed amazing insights. Even the gaps in the data tell you a lot.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 6/10/2013 5:41:09 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: NSA leaker comes forward - 6/10/2013 5:58:00 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:


Considering that the NSA program was designed to seek out any foreign operators who might be planning an attack on Americans at home and considering that for the most part these operators have been in recent history associated with the Islamist Fundamentalist groups it seems pretty clear who is receiving aid and comfort from the disclosure of the program.

Again, an honest question as I try to get my head around this: What aid and comfort did folks get from Snowden's revelations?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: NSA leaker comes forward - 6/10/2013 6:23:50 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

It's a weird day when the lefties, here, agree with The Donald. LOL I never thought I'd live to see it.

Interesting times.

Yahoo gathered some intriguing reactions.

http://news.yahoo.com/20-different-opinions-nsa-famous-people-181622847.html

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: NSA leaker comes forward - 6/10/2013 7:15:57 PM   
dcnovice


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I found this overview helpful and thought others might too:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/113427/nsa-spying-scandal-one-leak-more-damaging-other

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: NSA leaker comes forward - 6/10/2013 7:33:04 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
So, he wants the evil gummit to shut down the evil spy program.



It saddens me to see you posting the strawman attack of a stooge, Vince. There are good reasons for such activities under President Obama, just as President Bush had good reasons to get the things rolling up in a post 9/11 environment.

It saddens me also, yet without the faintest bit of surprise, to know that some of those who defend such activities are doing so, not because they have thought-out rational positions, but because that's how they keep their mouths wrapped around Obama's scrotum and testicles. If this had come to such light under Bush, those same individuals would be howling for blood and impeachment.

Mr. Snowden's position, if someone could be bothered to watch the Guardian interview, is that the public needs to understand just how deep and broad the surveillance state has become, and to point out that the use of such information is governed only by secret policies, policies which can be changed with the equally secret twitch of a pen, and not by a body of public laws, spelling out the clear protections essential to the survival of individual liberty.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: NSA leaker comes forward - 6/10/2013 7:44:06 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Must we indulge your fantasy that anyone called for shrub`s impeachment?


As well, aren`t normal folks allowed to and entitled to make distinctions between the patriot act and shrub`s torture/forced confession program and criticize one without the other?


Massage to the bushies........shrub was not vindicated......and will never be.


And it`s the retard party that constantly calling to impeach the President for something......anything.....nothing.




< Message edited by Owner59 -- 6/10/2013 7:45:24 PM >

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(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: NSA leaker comes forward - 6/10/2013 7:44:49 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

But I do think intention may be a factor in determining whether Snowden's actions meet the constitutional criteria for treason.



DC, there isn't any doubt whatsoever that this guy has committed federal felonies by doing what he has admitted to doing. If he is brought to trial on such charges, a jury can, (and certainly should, in my rarely humble opinion) consider whether his actions were of greater good than harm to our nation.

I think it's interesting that he looked at what he had access to, and did his best to sift carefully for what he passed to the press. It sets him apart from that vile little punk, Manning.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: NSA leaker comes forward - 6/10/2013 7:55:10 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Do you think he strokes his shrivelled little cock, while waiting for me to post?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: NSA leaker comes forward - 6/10/2013 7:55:34 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:


Considering that the NSA program was designed to seek out any foreign operators who might be planning an attack on Americans at home and considering that for the most part these operators have been in recent history associated with the Islamist Fundamentalist groups it seems pretty clear who is receiving aid and comfort from the disclosure of the program.

Again, an honest question as I try to get my head around this: What aid and comfort did folks get from Snowden's revelations?

It is a one sided presentation about the dangers and evils of the government's surveilence system without a discussion of the congressional and inspector general checks and without a discussion of the rules that govern the technicians sitting at the computers. Snowden says he had the 'authority' (highly doubtful at his level) more likely meant the capability to look at anyone's emails. Well, any employee at Google has the capability to look at g-mails and read them. We know our electronic correspondences are not in a lock box. But we trust that Google has laid down rules prohibiting such intrusion by its employees. However, Snowden doesn't mention that he would probably be breaking protocols by reading private emails. He leaves the impression that he has carte blanc to do so and this paints a picture of a government that cannot be trusted. Yet, this is a government to whom we entrust our nuclear weapons! Snowden and the newspapers who carry his story contribute to the world narrative that America has become an Evil force in the world. Therein lies the aid and comfort to the enemy. Basically, he is reaffirming the picture that America is the bad guys. I will admit our governments have done some bad shit in our names in the world. I cannot defend some of the military things we have done or some of the dictators we have supported. But this narrative of a big bro government strikes at the heart of our efforts to secure ourselves against attacks here at home. That is where I think Snowden has made a serious breech against the rest of us. By his action he has pretty much declared that the danger is past or that the danger is so minimal that he can expose the data collection system in the name of individual liberty. Let's have that discussion on the day when a group of suicidal thugs charge into the Mall of the Americas with AR-15s blazing on a Sunday before Christmas. THEN the issue will be "why didn't the FBI connect the dots?" So yeah, I see it as giving aid and comfort in the generic sense at least, if not in the legal sense. And this is just the start. Glenn Greenwald was in TV this evening promising more.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: NSA leaker comes forward - 6/10/2013 8:05:33 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
So, he wants the evil gummit to shut down the evil spy program.



It saddens me to see you posting the strawman attack of a stooge, Vince. There are good reasons for such activities under President Obama, just as President Bush had good reasons to get the things rolling up in a post 9/11 environment.

It saddens me also, yet without the faintest bit of surprise, to know that some of those who defend such activities are doing so, not because they have thought-out rational positions, but because that's how they keep their mouths wrapped around Obama's scrotum and testicles. If this had come to such light under Bush, those same individuals would be howling for blood and impeachment.

Mr. Snowden's position, if someone could be bothered to watch the Guardian interview, is that the public needs to understand just how deep and broad the surveillance state has become, and to point out that the use of such information is governed only by secret policies, policies which can be changed with the equally secret twitch of a pen, and not by a body of public laws, spelling out the clear protections essential to the survival of individual liberty.



I explained my position futher on in reply to DC, Rich. I don't see it as a strawman attack at all.

There are public laws that govern this procedure. FISA is there name. They date back to the 1970s. And there are Congressional oversights to the policies. Snowden very clearly said he could look at anyone's email. He said he had that 'authority.' I suspect he meant he had that capability. If he does not produce a letter giving him that authority he is describing a rogue action. Not the purpose of the program.

Your speculation about Obama's scrotum and peoples' motives in this discussion is disgusting and a new low for you, Rich.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: NSA leaker comes forward - 6/10/2013 8:24:46 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Your speculation about Obama's scrotum and peoples' motives in this discussion is disgusting and a new low for you, Rich.



I'm a free speech kind of guy, Vince. Feel free to use the hide button - Lord knows I do. My choice of verbiage merely reflects the disgust and contempt I have for those who think this kind of unconstrained power is a partisan matter.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: NSA leaker comes forward - 6/10/2013 8:26:15 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Your speculation about Obama's scrotum and peoples' motives in this discussion is disgusting and a new low for you, Rich.


Its not new.

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(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: NSA leaker comes forward - 6/10/2013 9:00:30 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Your speculation about Obama's scrotum and peoples' motives in this discussion is disgusting and a new low for you, Rich.



I'm a free speech kind of guy, Vince. Feel free to use the hide button - Lord knows I do. My choice of verbiage merely reflects the disgust and contempt I have for those who think this kind of unconstrained power is a partisan matter.



As the boards number one Obama hater, bush apologist and rightwing hack.....you`re describing yourself.....

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: NSA leaker comes forward - 6/10/2013 9:06:34 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

DC, there isn't any doubt whatsoever that this guy has committed federal felonies by doing what he has admitted to doing. If he is brought to trial on such charges, a jury can, (and certainly should, in my rarely humble opinion) consider whether his actions were of greater good than harm to our nation.

Agreed. I was responding specifically to the charge of treason, which is explicitly spelled out in the Constitution. I'm not sure that Snowden's acts, while illegal, meet the criteria for treason.

Way back when DC buses had posters spelling out the definition of treason. I'm guessing they were tied to the bicentennial of the Constitution, but it seemed an awfully odd focus to choose.



_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: NSA leaker comes forward - 6/10/2013 9:12:01 PM   
FatDomDaddy


Posts: 3183
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Your speculation about Obama's scrotum and peoples' motives in this discussion is disgusting and a new low for you, Rich.



I'm a free speech kind of guy, Vince. Feel free to use the hide button - Lord knows I do. My choice of verbiage merely reflects the disgust and contempt I have for those who think this kind of unconstrained power is a partisan matter.



As the boards number one Obama hater, bush apologist and rightwing hack.....you`re describing yourself.....



Hey... at least he'd not insisting you are a Republican Heretic...

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: NSA leaker comes forward - 6/10/2013 9:19:06 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Like yourself, that goes without saying....


And like yourself....hating the President is the stronger drive.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: NSA leaker comes forward - 6/10/2013 9:31:55 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		I don't see that one's posts, unless he's quoted, Fats, but I'm not at all surprised to see Owner59 trying to make his usual lies about me and what I stand for the subject of the thread, instead of a threat to individual liberty that ought to be of concern to any American, of any political persuasion, who is proud to set forth their opinion.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
Profile   Post #: 100
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