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RE: This is most submissive men during courtship process - 7/26/2013 2:38:18 PM

Posts: 2536
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AAkasha,
I understand exactly what you're saying (and I'm not sure why so many others don't seem to).

As a male sub, I am often embarrassed by the lack of communication skills and social graces demonstrated by the male subs on this website. It's embarrassing. That's why so many of my post are geared towards offering advice. I really don't go to areas of the site where people talk about politics, or exchange jokes, or any of that stuff. I focus on the sections where I can share my experiences with newbie male subs.

I have seen/met many who just didn't understand that there is no D/s dynamic in place at the first meeting. They don't understand that it's okay to ask you questions. They don't understand that you're not yet their "Mistress".

The only way to change that is to continue educating them. And I think your post is a move in that direction. You make some great points, despite how some have reacted to this thread.

< Message edited by Rochsub2009 -- 7/26/2013 2:39:20 PM >

_____________________________

"The thing about smart mother fuckers is that sometimes, they sound like crazy mother fuckers to stupid mother fuckers".
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(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: This is most submissive men during courtship process - 7/26/2013 3:07:13 PM

Posts: 597
Joined: 6/9/2012
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quote:

Subs don't ask questions when getting to know someone.

That's perhaps what happens to you, but it's not been my experience.

_____________________________

What you permit, you promote.

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: This is most submissive men during courtship process - 7/26/2013 3:15:29 PM

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
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I don't think her post is intended to malign malesubs as much as it is intended to offer the advice of being proactive and "normal" during a courtship as opposed to "submissive," kink-focused, timid, and withdrawn.

The important thing about her post is that the advice be sound -- and I regard it so. Of less importance are the generalizations -- most all advice must rest upon some kind of generalization.

If I had to restate her point, it would be -- don't approach a femdom as a Dominatrix, approach her instead as a normal woman. From there, if you can establish a personal connection, move onto BDSM interests.

Without a doubt the goal is to get onto first base -- make contact and establish a connection. See if you like one another. Do you simply have a baseline Male-to-Female connection. I know this advice would have been invaluable to me at a younger age.

It's similar to normal dating. Can you go out to dinner and movie and enjoy yourselves. If yes, you might move onto more racy pursuits. If, no, don't make inappropriate advances. Whatever you do, don't make inappropriate advances in the beginning.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 7/26/2013 3:19:26 PM >

(in reply to SailingBum)

RE: This is most submissive men during courtship process - 7/26/2013 5:22:13 PM

Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

"So enough about me and my kinks. What do YOU think about me and my kinks."

Akasha

I think that's both a remarkable question and...a much more than poignant one.

Pertinent beyond measure.

Let's do this right....let's talk about me.

Indeed....let's quit futzing around.

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: This is most submissive men during courtship process - 7/26/2013 5:26:29 PM

CynthiaWVirginia

Posts: 1915
Joined: 2/28/2010
From: West Virginia, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
And I always must add, for clarification, I am talking about "the other side of CM,"; the men on this side, the ones that interact on the forums, have a much better sense of how the real world works. It just seems that the men who visit personals sites, and my previous experiences with munches and play parties when I went to them.

Mostly, this was a nudge to any lurking subs to please, ask questions. It's ok, the worst that could happen is a woman would indicate to you that asking questions was not appropriate. Then - seriously - do you want to continue to know that woman?

Akasha

Threads that are, for the majority, directed towards those on the "other side" aren't really hitting their target audience here. It's the same for folks who write up rants about rude emails or venting frustration about how everybody is fake. Any subject that is mostly meant in reference to those on the personals side, typically isn't as valid of an issue for those who frequent the forums. It's something like trying to put a PSA out on radio for those who primarily watch tv.

Granted, when it comes to submissive males, the personals side has a terrible signal to noise ratio. That's because you have an enormous amount of guys who stumble on websites like this due to sexually and/or porn driven fantasy. Cut to the chase, lots of guys thinking this joint is about getting a quick easy lay. One that they pretty much expect to fall into their lap at that.

Forum participants, for the most part, tend to be better communicators. It's a written medium, so those who are better than average in that area are more likely to join in on a variety of topics and conversations flow. It's a strength that is consistent whether public discussion or private exchanges. Same thing for munches and parties because those who are more social types, or even those who realize the importance of getting out to events to make connections who may be having to deal with issues such as being shy do better in two way communication. Sure, you still get a small percentage of wall-flowers and lurkers but the majority of males in the kink community learn quickly that they have to be an active participant in the social aspect to achieve what brought them out to events in the first place. Two or three munches or play parties is a fast lesson that being passive isn't how to gain the attention of the female tops, so they see that an active role is more likely to bring results.

This isn't to say that the original is a bad piece but I would think it would be finding it's target audience in a different format. Maybe better suited for an area where most of the males are more readers than participators. It's good advice for those who aren't strong in interacting with others or are more the type who aren't already making the investment to put some effort into getting away from the computer to get their kink. More of a 'reading only' type forum.

I disagree about the target audience, that it cannot be found in these boards...because...a lot more people come here as lurkers than will make posts. Yanno, people don't even have to have an account here to be able to read CM's message boards...

The vast majority of newbies are completely unaware that munches exist. Having a D/s or kink epiphany does not wake up some genetic memory that fills us in about munches, play parties, etc. CM is often a place where newbies come to learn all this stuff, it's not just a place for the very experienced hang out.

She's not trying to reach regular posters who already know the ropes. Btw, I'm going to bookmark this thread to send to guys who tiptoe in to whine about why Dommes don't give them the time of day, and whack them over the head about treating Dommes like a kink delivery service.

I'm all for ensuring that newbies are welcomed, enlightened, shown some of the ropes because it means more..."fresh meat" in our local communities.

The men I've topped or owned have not come from the message boards side of CM, but from the mailroom and chatroom sides. I've required many to come here to the boards to read several old threads that would help with their education. Surely I can't be the only one who has dragged newbies onto this side of CM? There simply are no local munches in my area. Nothing educational in r/t. No big secret club with decoder rings to join that will teach newbies the ropes. CM and other sites like it are their only chance to get some real education from kinksters who are into this in r/t and are willing to give them a clue.

Back to AAkasha's original post...I want to make some comments on it.

AAkasha...my first (r/t) submissive learned from your site how to treat dominant women. He stood out, head and shoulders over the thousands of other guys who contacted me because... he had read and took to heart what you wrote, had reigned in his sub frenzy and treated me like a human being first. I will always owe you for that. Without having known him I probably would have said "f*ck it" and left "the world of kink". My leadership needs were already being met through several vanilla (nonsexual) relationships; I would have survived leaving BDSM and chalking it up as a bad idea.

I don't know how many other women AAkasha's advice has saved from burning out and simply walking away from this...before really giving it a chance. All the men who read and take it to heart, who knows how many women they have talked with and influenced over the years. True that most of these men and women never have and probably never will post in these boards and become regulars, but they become part of our available options out in the real world. Again, yay for fresh meat, whether submissive fresh meat, or more "fresh meat" female Dominants.

People b*tch about there not being enough females in the lifestyle...HELLO!...AAkasha's common sense approach is one way to get them. Her advice is sound and I enjoy reading her posts.

quote:

There is some perception that it is "rude" or "prying" or "inappropriate" for a submissive male to ask questions. NOT TRUE!"

There is some perception that a male submissive must not speak or ask questions unless spoken to. WTF! This is not your fantasy, no one owns you yet.

Yes, I've found this to be a common misconception among the serious new male subs. (Not among the married but cheating wankers, nor among the guys doing one handed typing; they prefer to only talk about their kinks and generally don't want to get to know the woman as a real human being.)

Many of the new male subs are so much in sub frenzy, or are so afraid of being blacklisted in r/t if they offend any Domme, that they will be tonguetied and afraid of screwing up. A tiny bit of "Domme fumes", lol, from us and their brain will gush out chemicals they are not used to dealing with yet and this makes things worse. This reminds me of a teenager being "in love with love" and having to deal with the chemical cocktail their brain produces when they are experiencing puppy love. Btw, bo had his education from some site that put out lots of BDSM dungeon video clips, before they started adding sex into it. The guys had to be very formal with the Dommes/Tops, and bo had brainwashed himself into thinking that this was the proper way to treat every Domme he bumped into.

quote:

If by the third or fourth exchange a man has not asked me anything about my hobbies, or how was my day, or where have I traveled, or anything, he's useless. He's either socially challenged to the point of no return, or he absolutely sees me as a fetish fantasy and just does not CARE because all he sees is a caricature and the person behind that is not even RELEVANT. After some prodding when I have let this go sometime and found out SO much about a man and his life, history, family, etc. and he knows virtually NOTHING I have asked him how he thinks we're connecting and I swear he thinks we're like -- a match made in HEAVEN and he knows NOTHING about me - literally nothing.

Yep, this has been my experience too. (Male Doms who disagree...pfft...they have no experience of communicating with at least ten thousand male subs over the years and have no idea how new male subs, who have never been to a munch or play party, behave when writing or talking over the phone with a Domme.)

quote:

Sub men love to be the center of attention, they love to be pursued. It's the dream for them.

It seems to be a common trait among r/t male subs I have known well. It's amazing how many guys don't get it that they are "high maintenance", dreaming of being pursued by someone they find attractive, swept off their feet and made to feel...special/precious/noticed/watched. Is my bo like this? Ask him and he'd say no...but, hell yes, he is!

quote:

For a lot of subs, maybe this is the reason your conversations are dying out. Are you asking the same number of questions that you are being asked? Is a real conversation happening, or is just her asking you questions and you answering? Keep an eye on the tempo and make sure it is even. Learn about her as a whole person!

Very good advice. I hope a lot of newbies and lurkers find their way into this thread, so they have a better chance of controlling their sub frenzy and think about writing letters that will make us see them as a man who is fun to get to know better. (They're at CM; we already guessed that they're kinky.)

Around ten years ago, a Dom from the other side of CM told me that all fem sub profiles were basically the same (boring), full of kinky hopes and dreams and a list of hard limits. Only by talking with them...could he find out what made each woman unique. It was the vanilla stuff, not the kink, that had the power to transform them in his eyes from generic assembly line style fem sub into an interesting, quirky human being.

Surely some of us are able to view male subs in the same light; we yawn over their kink list if that is all they are offering to talk about. Don't get me wrong, finding someone to negotiate with for a one time topping session might be that simple, comparing kink preferences and checking for hard limits...but some of us need more than that because we are, or were, looking for a lifetime partnership. Why even begin to form emotional ties with someone who is clearly incompatible on so many levels?

Whenever I've had a dozen or three or four dozen guys writing to me in a week, the guys who followed AAkasha's advice were the ones I focused my attention on and made arrangements to meet up with.

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: This is most submissive men during courtship process - 7/26/2013 9:18:39 PM

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Joined: 10/1/2011
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I understand where Aakasha is coming from and I can understand her frustration with the way more than a few sub men are, or men who claim to be sub. I have seen this up close and personal, and I have some takes on why...

-There are the socially awkward folks, who I can't figure out if they are sub, or if they figure that a dominant woman will be the agressor and it saves them from having to introduce themselves, be the initiator, etc.

-There are also socially awkward folks who I definitely think are sub, but have real problems, vanilla or otherwise, initiating conversation or talking about themselves, they take a lot of work; it was hard for me, where I a pretty gregarious and easy to talk to, to get them to talk as a fellow sub

-the guys who confuse a dominant woman with a pro domme, and forget she is a woman who probably wants someone, as Akasha does, who is a complete person, they think a domme would be like the pro who can 'do them' or something. It isn't that they are jerks, they just don't know much better IMO.

-the narcissistic subs, who really are into getting their needs met even though they are 'sub' (not that uncommon).

-The subs who have been burned in real life interactions with 'dommes' who quite frankly are conceited assholes who seem to think there role as Domme as something granted by God and God's nature and there makes her ruler over all, especially subs. I have unfortunately met more then a few of this type, who generally go by the name 'Queen this" or "Empress that", and if a sub approaches them pull all kinds of attitude, as if the sub is automatically owner by her, etc, who basically assume what Akasha saw with some subs, that the D/s is there even before there is a relationship of any kind..which to me is complete horsehit, and when it has been pulled on me I generally laugh at them.....

Someone who is really experienced in the scene, who has been through relationships already, probably won't have those kinds of problems, the real problem is for every experienced sub out there, there are a lot of them that are eager but frankly don't have a clue, they don't know what they want, and they really don't understand that a domme is a woman with a whole layer of stuff built on top of that, but you don't get to the sugar and spice (and whips and chains) until you get through that....the irony being that if they were dating a vanilla woman, that is exactly what they would be doing, working through the defenses and creating a dialog.......

For some reason, it reminds me of a pretty crappy movie that somehow stuck with me, called PCU, that was a satire on modern college life and such (Jeremy Piven, from Entourage, was in it)....there is one scene are a party, where this kind of radical feminist gal, who has real attitude, sees how guys react to other girls, buying them beers, talking to them, and the girl says 'you mean if we are nice to them, they will buy you beers and talk to you and stuff?".....it is kind of like that will male subs:)

(in reply to CynthiaWVirginia)

RE: This is most submissive men during courtship process - 7/27/2013 10:39:14 AM

Posts: 208
Joined: 6/21/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CynthiaWVirginia

I don't know how many other women AAkasha's advice has saved from burning out and simply walking away from this...before really giving it a chance. All the men who read and take it to heart, who knows how many women they have talked with and influenced over the years. True that most of these men and women never have and probably never will post in these boards and become regulars, but they become part of our available options out in the real world. Again, yay for fresh meat, whether submissive fresh meat, or more "fresh meat" female Dominants.

People b*tch about there not being enough females in the lifestyle...HELLO!...AAkasha's common sense approach is one way to get them. Her advice is sound and I enjoy reading her posts.

I wanted to jump in to second Cynthia's comments above, and to add that I am another domme that benefited from Akasha's writings. And since their links haven't been posted here yet, let me do so with this link, this one, a third, and yet another.

As for the guys who don't ask any questions: Yes, it can be frustrating. As I mentioned in another thread recently, if there is not a give and take flow to the conversation, I'll say something like, "Feel free to ask me anything you like," or "What questions do you have for me?" If that doesn't open up the door, I let them go.

Spy

(in reply to CynthiaWVirginia)

RE: This is most submissive men during courtship process - 7/27/2013 11:26:32 AM

Posts: 1788
Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Saint Pete,FL
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I am not your "typical" male sub and I am certainly not afraid to ask questions. Of course, just who is suppose to be a "typical" male sub anyways? There are alot of stereotypes out there about what a male sub is suppose to be and I find a lot of them to be b.s. At least in regards for me. Like not every Dom/me is the same, not every "sub/slave" is the same either.

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(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: This is most submissive men during courtship process - 7/27/2013 11:54:23 AM

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If you're genuinely talking about "courtship," the problem is that in Femdom the rules haven't been written. There are no significant sociological role models; there is no movie that I'm aware of where a submissive male is shown as anything other than somebody to laugh at. For conventional male-dominant heterosexuality we have decades of movies and centuries of literary works as a guide. But for Femdom, we have nothing.

It's like I've been saying forever (and exactly why I hate findommes and keep getting censored on these boards for saying so) I believe Femdom is an independent sexuality, much like being gay, and it needs to be developed. I'd love to see the day when dom females and sub guys could be totally out about themselves high school and go out on respectful dates with each other. I'd like to see a time when a 15 year old boy didn't feel he was weird and all alone simply because sexually he was way more turned on by a woman dominating him than vice versa.

That, BTW, is why I get so freakin' mad at lifestyle dommes giving these totally phony financial dommes a pass, and ridiculing subs who don't like this. Great. Go ahead, make femdom look sick and pathetic and maybe we can hold off on making it an accepted sexuality for another century or two.

(in reply to Charles6682)

RE: This is most submissive men during courtship process - 7/27/2013 12:08:37 PM

Posts: 1788
Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Saint Pete,FL
Status: offline

I just try to stay positive and go with the flow. Being bitter isn't ever going to accomplish anything. Being grateful and humble help's me a lot.

< Message edited by Charles6682 -- 7/27/2013 12:12:01 PM >

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(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: This is most submissive men during courtship process - 7/27/2013 12:32:40 PM

Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dink22

If you're genuinely talking about "courtship," the problem is that in Femdom the rules haven't been written. There are no significant sociological role models; there is no movie that I'm aware of where a submissive male is shown as anything other than somebody to laugh at. For conventional male-dominant heterosexuality we have decades of movies and centuries of literary works as a guide. But for Femdom, we have nothing.

It's like I've been saying forever (and exactly why I hate findommes and keep getting censored on these boards for saying so) I believe Femdom is an independent sexuality, much like being gay, and it needs to be developed. I'd love to see the day when dom females and sub guys could be totally out about themselves high school and go out on respectful dates with each other. I'd like to see a time when a 15 year old boy didn't feel he was weird and all alone simply because sexually he was way more turned on by a woman dominating him than vice versa.

That, BTW, is why I get so freakin' mad at lifestyle dommes giving these totally phony financial dommes a pass, and ridiculing subs who don't like this. Great. Go ahead, make femdom look sick and pathetic and maybe we can hold off on making it an accepted sexuality for another century or two.

Dink, there are no need for special "rules." Just like a gay person does not necessarily need to advertise they are gay, and you may NEVER know they are gay until they decide or want to be out. I don't advertise to the general public I am a femdom. If I feel a man needs to know (and that usually happens if I am attracted to him) I flirt with him in a manner that demonstrates my dominance in a way that makes it clear. I am not domineering or bitchy, I am flirty about it. If he responds in kind, with submissivenss flirtiness, perhaps we may connect on that level. The only time actual power exchange comes to fruition is well into an established relationship once we've talked very seriously about it.

It's not like dominant women troll the streets and yank men off of street corners. Or are in dark clubs and drug their drinks, and then they wake up in the back of a car. Sure, in my fantasies they are like that. But in reality, it's JUST LIKE NORMAL COURTING! And what happens is that once there's chemistry, that's when the femdom juices start flowing. When I find myself attracted to a man, I start to crave him in a submissive role to me.

It seems like submissive men crave women in dominant roles from the onset and want that dynamic in place and just want to understand the "rules" right away. There are no rules. The rules are - you are equals. Just like traditional gender roles and whatever those may be, and granted, sadly, those are "jacked up" for lack of a better word, and some women may be "bitchy. demanding, feminist, righteous" and you think you struck gold but guess what? Submissive as hell in the bedroom! So don't take first impressions to mean anything.

When a dominant woman wants you to know she is dominant, kinky, into power exchange - trust me, she will let you know. We are not shy. Until then, all normal rules of courtship apply. That means you treat her like you would a lady. And you behave like a gentleman - no posturing at all, no submissive behavior, no "real life" version of You/i, none of that crap. You know what that is? It's pretentious, and the real life equivalent of walking around with your dick in your hand.

Pulling the chair out for her to sit down? That's being a gentleman. Big difference.

Akasha

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(in reply to dink22)

RE: This is most submissive men during courtship process - 7/27/2013 12:45:39 PM

Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

I am not your "typical" male sub and I am certainly not afraid to ask questions. Of course, just who is suppose to be a "typical" male sub anyways? There are alot of stereotypes out there about what a male sub is suppose to be and I find a lot of them to be b.s. At least in regards for me. Like not every Dom/me is the same, not every "sub/slave" is the same either.

I hear ya the OP is so full of herself...Typical this...Typical that... In quite a few post on other threads I've tried explaining how the "generally thinking" is just not normal. Suffice to say if she represents a "typical domme" it doesn't surprise me that dommes can't find anyone to play with!

BadOne

_____________________________

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(in reply to Charles6682)

RE: This is most submissive men during courtship process - 7/27/2013 12:53:13 PM

Posts: 171
Joined: 5/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

quote:

ORIGINAL: dink22

If you're genuinely talking about "courtship," the problem is that in Femdom the rules haven't been written. There are no significant sociological role models; there is no movie that I'm aware of where a submissive male is shown as anything other than somebody to laugh at. For conventional male-dominant heterosexuality we have decades of movies and centuries of literary works as a guide. But for Femdom, we have nothing.

It's like I've been saying forever (and exactly why I hate findommes and keep getting censored on these boards for saying so) I believe Femdom is an independent sexuality, much like being gay, and it needs to be developed. I'd love to see the day when dom females and sub guys could be totally out about themselves high school and go out on respectful dates with each other. I'd like to see a time when a 15 year old boy didn't feel he was weird and all alone simply because sexually he was way more turned on by a woman dominating him than vice versa.

That, BTW, is why I get so freakin' mad at lifestyle dommes giving these totally phony financial dommes a pass, and ridiculing subs who don't like this. Great. Go ahead, make femdom look sick and pathetic and maybe we can hold off on making it an accepted sexuality for another century or two.

Dink, there are no need for special "rules." Just like a gay person does not necessarily need to advertise they are gay, and you may NEVER know they are gay until they decide or want to be out. I don't advertise to the general public I am a femdom. If I feel a man needs to know (and that usually happens if I am attracted to him) I flirt with him in a manner that demonstrates my dominance in a way that makes it clear. I am not domineering or bitchy, I am flirty about it. If he responds in kind, with submissivenss flirtiness, perhaps we may connect on that level. The only time actual power exchange comes to fruition is well into an established relationship once we've talked very seriously about it.

It's not like dominant women troll the streets and yank men off of street corners. Or are in dark clubs and drug their drinks, and then they wake up in the back of a car. Sure, in my fantasies they are like that. But in reality, it's JUST LIKE NORMAL COURTING! And what happens is that once there's chemistry, that's when the femdom juices start flowing. When I find myself attracted to a man, I start to crave him in a submissive role to me.

It seems like submissive men crave women in dominant roles from the onset and want that dynamic in place and just want to understand the "rules" right away. There are no rules. The rules are - you are equals. Just like traditional gender roles and whatever those may be, and granted, sadly, those are "jacked up" for lack of a better word, and some women may be "bitchy. demanding, feminist, righteous" and you think you struck gold but guess what? Submissive as hell in the bedroom! So don't take first impressions to mean anything.

When a dominant woman wants you to know she is dominant, kinky, into power exchange - trust me, she will let you know. We are not shy. Until then, all normal rules of courtship apply. That means you treat her like you would a lady. And you behave like a gentleman - no posturing at all, no submissive behavior, no "real life" version of You/i, none of that crap. You know what that is? It's pretentious, and the real life equivalent of walking around with your dick in your hand.

Pulling the chair out for her to sit down? That's being a gentleman. Big difference.

Akasha

Allright. If you say so. I must be unfortunate. Or very ugly to dominant women. I'm 57 years old and I have never, ever, met a woman in my life who even dropped subtle hints that she was dominant. And believe me, I've looked for those hints. It is exactly because I've looked for them and in a number of instances thought I saw them that has led to the most awkward and embarrassing moments of my life.

But if you think Femdom doesn't need to be developed as a sexuality, then I'm sorry for making a really stupid comment. I must be living on another planet. I should have found love years ago. Instead, I found lots of women who thought I was "Mr RIGHT!" only to dump me when they found out I was "Mr. SUB!!"

But evidently this Femdom thing is really common, I just didn't see it.

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: This is most submissive men during courtship process - 7/27/2013 12:58:53 PM

Posts: 49
Joined: 7/2/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
If by the third or fourth exchange a man has not asked me anything about my hobbies, or how was my day, or where have I traveled, or anything, he's useless.

I was under the impression if the other person isn't asking questions back they are either socially challenged or just not that interested in you/or as a person.

quote:

Sub men love to be the center of attention, they love to be pursued. It's the dream for them. Because there's no pressure.

I can just as easily say "Women love to be the center of attention, they love to be pursued. It's the dream for them. Because there's no pressure.".

Neither statement is correct as neither sets of peoples are hive minds.

quote:

For a lot of subs, maybe this is the reason your conversations are dying out. Are you asking the same number of questions that you are being asked? Is a real conversation happening, or is just her asking you questions and you answering? Keep an eye on the tempo and make sure it is even. Learn about her as a whole person!

I found it to be the other way round in the past, I just took it as a lack of interest on their part in me, nothing more nothing less.

< Message edited by plesto -- 7/27/2013 12:59:42 PM >

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: This is most submissive men during courtship process - 7/27/2013 4:50:13 PM

Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dink22

Allright. If you say so. I must be unfortunate. Or very ugly to dominant women. I'm 57 years old and I have never, ever, met a woman in my life who even dropped subtle hints that she was dominant. And believe me, I've looked for those hints. It is exactly because I've looked for them and in a number of instances thought I saw them that has led to the most awkward and embarrassing moments of my life.

But if you think Femdom doesn't need to be developed as a sexuality, then I'm sorry for making a really stupid comment. I must be living on another planet. I should have found love years ago. Instead, I found lots of women who thought I was "Mr RIGHT!" only to dump me when they found out I was "Mr. SUB!!"

But evidently this Femdom thing is really common, I just didn't see it.

I've met men who were pretty successful in their "femdom radar" before meeting me. In fact we met in vanilla circumstances (more on that later - they were heavily slanted toward kinky potential). I asked them later how many kinky women they met on accident, per se. And it was several. How did they get so lucky? The answer is they dated. A LOT.

So how many women did you date? That's the other problem. These men were extroverts and not shy, so they flirted, they worked a room. They were single and out 3-4 nights a week at parties, social gatherings, networking with friends. Of course they were meeting so many women (this was before online dating) they were weeding out women left and right. They were perfecting their skills at identifying dominant women. The challenge is that a lot of subs have social anxiety, are shy, are introverted, or all three. And dominant women are not NECESSARILY running around interrogating every man in the room, but catch the eye of a man who is affable and gregarious.

Where were these places? Alternative dance clubs and geeky hangouts and places where things like table tops gaming happen. The alternative dance clubs and like - nine inch nails concerts - very heavy cross over with kink. A lot of high probability of femdoms there. I met a lot of vanilla/"sub curious" and men I converted there. And I met a lot of other femdoms there (like my friend Miss Blue). And the geeky online hangouts (this was the BBS days) and tabletop gaming - there's a big crossover between kinky and intellectual/nerdy I think with femdoms the same way there is with SCA and Ren faire (I don't do those). So in my early 20s that's where I was. In my late 20s it was at hockey games, and I think there are a lot of kinky women at hockey games, believe it or not.

Granted, YES, there are LESS kinky women than the general population. But you have to be aggressively dating, dating, dating. Between the shyness, social anxiety and nervousness AND the fact that subs often don't want to be the pursuer in a traditional sense, it's tough. If you look at the big picture, you have to really expect to "pursue" a dominant woman, from a courtship standpoint (in my opinion) in MOST cases, as aggressively as any vanilla woman - everything from asking her out, driving conversation, being outgoing, not appearing meek at all. It's a normal process. Power exchange in my relationship happens when the chemicals in my body mix with his and I decide I must OWN this man. Then my FIST goes into HIS hair and something makes me shove his face into the ground and the strap on harness comes out. Until their, we're laughing at a bar somewhere down town like buddies. You have to be able to relate to women like that.

Akasha

_____________________________

Akasha's Web - All original Femdom content since 1995
Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

(in reply to dink22)

RE: This is most submissive men during courtship process - 7/27/2013 4:53:18 PM

Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: plesto

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
If by the third or fourth exchange a man has not asked me anything about my hobbies, or how was my day, or where have I traveled, or anything, he's useless.

I was under the impression if the other person isn't asking questions back they are either socially challenged or just not that interested in you/or as a person.

quote:

Sub men love to be the center of attention, they love to be pursued. It's the dream for them. Because there's no pressure.

I can just as easily say "Women love to be the center of attention, they love to be pursued. It's the dream for them. Because there's no pressure.".

Neither statement is correct as neither sets of peoples are hive minds.

quote:

For a lot of subs, maybe this is the reason your conversations are dying out. Are you asking the same number of questions that you are being asked? Is a real conversation happening, or is just her asking you questions and you answering? Keep an eye on the tempo and make sure it is even. Learn about her as a whole person!

I found it to be the other way round in the past, I just took it as a lack of interest on their part in me, nothing more nothing less.

Yeah exactly, when I say "Well I think things aren't really going anywhere, you don't seem to be asking any questions so I take it you aren't that interested in me" they FLIP OUT and have a melt down and tell me they can't stop thinking about me. And I go - then why not ask a single question? Somewhere these men have been "trained" it's not polite to ask a dominant woman a question, it's "prying."

_____________________________

Akasha's Web - All original Femdom content since 1995
Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

(in reply to plesto)

RE: This is most submissive men during courtship process - 7/27/2013 6:16:15 PM

CynthiaWVirginia

Posts: 1915
Joined: 2/28/2010
From: West Virginia, USA
Status: offline

I tried to come in this thread to catch up on it, but after reading this quote...

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum
Suffice to say if she represents a "typical domme" it doesn't surprise me that dommes can't find anyone to play with!

BadOne

Holy cr*p!

Reality check time:
The day that ANY Domme cannot find "anyone to play with"...
...is the day the earth stops spinning around on it's axis.

(in reply to SailingBum)

RE: This is most submissive men during courtship process - 7/27/2013 6:19:47 PM

Posts: 28
Joined: 5/3/2013
Status: offline

Maybe it's just me and my inquisitive nature, but I actually ask so many questions when I meet a new domme that I am afraid of annoying the crap out of them. But I am hungry to learn as much as possible about the person, and I am not shy about asking.

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: This is most submissive men during courtship process - 7/27/2013 7:51:06 PM

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CynthiaWVirginia

I tried to come in this thread to catch up on it, but after reading this quote...

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum
Suffice to say if she represents a "typical domme" it doesn't surprise me that dommes can't find anyone to play with!

BadOne

Holy cr*p!

Reality check time:
The day that ANY Domme cannot find "anyone to play with"...
...is the day the earth stops spinning around on it's axis.

I didn't necessarily agree with your prior statement, Cynthia, but I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't agree with this. I wouldn't have the balls to look Myself in the mirror if I tried to pass that off.

I've always said that if I couldn't find play partners, I'd hang this shit up. Seems like I'm still kicking.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to CynthiaWVirginia)

RE: This is most submissive men during courtship process - 7/27/2013 9:21:28 PM

Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dink22

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

quote:

ORIGINAL: dink22

If you're genuinely talking about "courtship," the problem is that in Femdom the rules haven't been written. There are no significant sociological role models; there is no movie that I'm aware of where a submissive male is shown as anything other than somebody to laugh at. For conventional male-dominant heterosexuality we have decades of movies and centuries of literary works as a guide. But for Femdom, we have nothing.

It's like I've been saying forever (and exactly why I hate findommes and keep getting censored on these boards for saying so) I believe Femdom is an independent sexuality, much like being gay, and it needs to be developed. I'd love to see the day when dom females and sub guys could be totally out about themselves high school and go out on respectful dates with each other. I'd like to see a time when a 15 year old boy didn't feel he was weird and all alone simply because sexually he was way more turned on by a woman dominating him than vice versa.

That, BTW, is why I get so freakin' mad at lifestyle dommes giving these totally phony financial dommes a pass, and ridiculing subs who don't like this. Great. Go ahead, make femdom look sick and pathetic and maybe we can hold off on making it an accepted sexuality for another century or two.

Dink, there are no need for special "rules." Just like a gay person does not necessarily need to advertise they are gay, and you may NEVER know they are gay until they decide or want to be out. I don't advertise to the general public I am a femdom. If I feel a man needs to know (and that usually happens if I am attracted to him) I flirt with him in a manner that demonstrates my dominance in a way that makes it clear. I am not domineering or bitchy, I am flirty about it. If he responds in kind, with submissivenss flirtiness, perhaps we may connect on that level. The only time actual power exchange comes to fruition is well into an established relationship once we've talked very seriously about it.

It's not like dominant women troll the streets and yank men off of street corners. Or are in dark clubs and drug their drinks, and then they wake up in the back of a car. Sure, in my fantasies they are like that. But in reality, it's JUST LIKE NORMAL COURTING! And what happens is that once there's chemistry, that's when the femdom juices start flowing. When I find myself attracted to a man, I start to crave him in a submissive role to me.

It seems like submissive men crave women in dominant roles from the onset and want that dynamic in place and just want to understand the "rules" right away. There are no rules. The rules are - you are equals. Just like traditional gender roles and whatever those may be, and granted, sadly, those are "jacked up" for lack of a better word, and some women may be "bitchy. demanding, feminist, righteous" and you think you struck gold but guess what? Submissive as hell in the bedroom! So don't take first impressions to mean anything.

When a dominant woman wants you to know she is dominant, kinky, into power exchange - trust me, she will let you know. We are not shy. Until then, all normal rules of courtship apply. That means you treat her like you would a lady. And you behave like a gentleman - no posturing at all, no submissive behavior, no "real life" version of You/i, none of that crap. You know what that is? It's pretentious, and the real life equivalent of walking around with your dick in your hand.

Pulling the chair out for her to sit down? That's being a gentleman. Big difference.

Akasha

Allright. If you say so. I must be unfortunate. Or very ugly to dominant women. I'm 57 years old and I have never, ever, met a woman in my life who even dropped subtle hints that she was dominant. And believe me, I've looked for those hints. It is exactly because I've looked for them and in a number of instances thought I saw them that has led to the most awkward and embarrassing moments of my life.

But if you think Femdom doesn't need to be developed as a sexuality, then I'm sorry for making a really stupid comment. I must be living on another planet. I should have found love years ago. Instead, I found lots of women who thought I was "Mr RIGHT!" only to dump me when they found out I was "Mr. SUB!!"

But evidently this Femdom thing is really common, I just didn't see it.

Akasha I think hit the nail on the head, there aren't a lot of dominant women out there in proportion to the total population of eligible women. A lot of women simply aren't into kink, or if they are, tend to be sub, if in part because of what they are told women should be. It would be interesting if someone ever did a serious study of women, in this day and age where women's roles and expectations have changed, if a larger percentage of women now id as dominant versus generations ago......problem is, probably isn't a lot of good data or an easy way to get it.

I also think that it depends on where you are looking, who you are talking to, it is probably more likely to find a dominant woman (or someone curious about it) among people who are a bit more out there, artistic types, musical types, alternative spirituality (quite a few people in Wicca and other alternate spirituality/religions are into D/s and such), as opposed to looking at women who are more conventional.

The other thing I think a lot of sub men miss is that there may be the possibility to find women who might be curious and grow into it with them, it does happen. Yes, it is a lot more hard work to meet someone who has never even thought of this and work towards her taking on the dominant role, it would be a lot easier meeting Lady P or Akasha who know what they are and what they want, then to have to introduce the idea and work on it, but it also is probably statistically a lot easier to find someone who might be interested and learn and grow with them, then find one 'ready made'...another thing I have seen is that sub males can have unrealistic expectations about what a dominant woman is, they want someone who is that way 24/7, they want to dominant bitch, etc, when it is probably more likely that most women who id as dominant don't want anywhere near that, they want time simply being a woman with a male partner a significant portion of the time (that is my experience, anyway, YMMV).

(in reply to dink22)

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