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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/29/2013 10:03:04 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
Sorry Jeff I gotta jump in here and ask something because your reply confused me and I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting. Are you saying monogamy is NOT a choice for you? Since you ponder flying and can't fly, you ponder poly but can't poly? Am I connecting those dots correctly?

This is going to be hard over text but I'll try. This is a very nuanced conversation that gets into questions about "free will" and "self-determination" and I've had trouble expressing it over text before.

Let's start right out with the fact that I have little tolerance for the whole "I'm wired that way" line of reasoning. I don't accept that line from either Carol or myself. Both of us would see that line as serious shirking and a major crime in our marriage. So in the extreme example then yes, everything is a choice. I just find that to be an absurd stretch. Right at this moment I am choosing to breath. But seriously, does anyone think like that in normal non-pedantic english?

So more accurately I'd say I have a strong predilection and no particular interest or drive to change that predilection. It is a default stance. In my mind you don't "choose" your default stance. You "choose" something non-default. So I didn't "choose" to be dominant and I can't choose that -- probably ever. But I CAN choose to be submissive (actually, that'd make me switch since I'm not so sure I'd be able to root out all the dom wiring). Conversely, Carol could choose to be dominant but not submissive. Someone more in the middle of the bell curve could choose either. Similarly, I never chose to be straight nor can I choose that. But I could choose to be gay (not act gay, BE gay). At least I think I could.. in extreme cases like that certainty is only had after the fact.

My comparison to the crows was only to point out that my mind considers a great many things. Consideration of something does not equate to choosing in my mind. Choosing is something that might possibly happen AFTER consideration. I guess I just have a hard time calling something which has always been as natural, automatic, and right as breathing a "choice". In the strictest sense of the word it is. I just find that absurd. I never chose to be monogamous. I just met women, fell in love, then had no interest in doing it further. It was the leaf floating downstream not a choice. The Poly thing in our marriage IS a choice.

Does that in any way at all clarify? LOL


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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/29/2013 10:08:29 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Does that in any way at all clarify? LOL


It actually really clarified it a LOT, so thank you. I was seriously kind of laughing at myself at how twisted my brain was getting trying to understand what you were saying (it goes with the rest of my day so hey, all good) but I think you untangled the spaghetti in my head.

Makes for interesting ponderings. Because I understand what KOM is saying, too, and I like pondering two sides of a coin that both make sense...

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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/29/2013 10:12:57 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

So to be clear, the poly guy is telling the monogamous guy what he's doing and why? You really, really want to hold to that line?



Yup.... Considering and something a lot of people forget. I lived a monogamist lifestyle and almost as long as you been in a relationship with carol.. Maybe even longer. I did the rewiring so to speak from monogamy to poly. Alandra was instrumental in that and I know I couldnt of made the change without her perspective and wisdom. I almost choose not to venture into a poly world. It was only by the crossing path of one articular women along time ago that I developed feelings for. When it happen to me I was completely fucked up. Alandra was actually one that pointed out to me that I was falling in love with her. Raised in this society we don't think of being monogamist. It's almost a given. But... Often people that come to face the with the idea of poly will either choose to do poly or not. If you are never faced with the idea of poly it just doesn't come up as one considers their relationship orientation. But when faced with it.... That is when many generally choose not to reprogram. They don't want poly. They just stay I. Their comfort zone. And as you say, unless the motivation is there... Why change?

For the longest time I couldnt wrap my brain around the idea I could love anyone as deeply and passionately as Alandra... Until it just happen to me. I understand the idea that you didn't choose to be monogamist. You are definitely farther along than I in that you believe you can reprogram yourself. I personally think reprogramming can only go so far... Sooner or later the limitations of the hardware will bring its limitations to the table. Interestingly, I don't think one understands the limits of the hardware until they try to reprogram the software. I will also, believing one can do the reprogramming and actually doing it are very different things. I have tried the causal sex/ relationship thing. I could never get there. Any time I have have ventured into those waters it was shall we say a failure at best. Emotional attachment is huge for me in any type of physical intimacy and I have no expectation that will ever change.


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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/29/2013 10:15:44 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
It actually really clarified it a LOT, so thank you. I was seriously kind of laughing at myself at how twisted my brain was getting trying to understand what you were saying (it goes with the rest of my day so hey, all good) but I think you untangled the spaghetti in my head.

You'll be amused to know that I was laughing at the obvious spaghetti too I was just a bit worried that it might take voice to untangle it. I'm pleased with myself that I actually managed to say it clearly :)


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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/29/2013 10:41:08 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Yup.... Considering and something a lot of people forget. I lived a monogamist lifestyle and almost as long as you been in a relationship with carol..

Fair enough -- although I still think the line was more than a bit unwise.

quote:

Maybe even longer. I did the rewiring so to speak from monogamy to poly. Alandra was instrumental in that and I know I couldnt of made the change without her perspective and wisdom. I almost choose not to venture into a poly world. It was only by the crossing path of one articular women along time ago that I developed feelings for.

In point of fact this is how I've speculated I might actually end up poly. I've done a lot of pre-wiring in Carol and some in me but it's all just prep work and had more to do with control and TPE than a desire for poly. But at least now if a great thing fell in my lap it would be possible to make the choice. Before I would not have even seen the choice no matter how incredible the woman was. And that last sentence right there may be the core difference between you and me. Quite literally I would not have seen her as "female" or "mate potential" at all no matter what. Or, at least, I can't ever recall anything that was even twinges of that happening before.

quote:

For the longest time I couldnt wrap my brain around the idea I could love anyone as deeply and passionately as Alandra... Until it just happen to me.

And just to underscore the point, I'm fairly certain that it would not have been possible for it to happen to me.

quote:

You are definitely farther along than I in that you believe you can reprogram yourself. I personally think reprogramming can only go so far... Sooner or later the limitations of the hardware will bring its limitations to the table. Interestingly, I don't think one understands the limits of the hardware until they try to reprogram the software.

Yeah well (and this is me laughing at myself), I was the kid at the age of 8 who'd lie in bed when it was almost dark. I would stare at the ceiling willing myself to go totally blind... and succeeded at it. I also remember at similar ages deciding that "cold is just a nerve impulse and I can interpret it however I choose" ... and succeeding at that enough to warrant caution in terms of actual hypothermia. So for whatever reasons I've had a long-term fascination with this. I suspect that the roots of what I conceive of as "dominance" are visible there. That was a young sentience deciding that it was in control of both it's mind & body.

But I agree with this quote completely. That's exactly why the standards are different for Carol on external commands vs. internal ones. For the "do this" commands it is 100% compliance... first time deliberate disobedience is release. On the internal commands it's "best faith effort". I just have mountains of confidence in Carol's "best faith". Even then her success rate on the seriously nasty internal commands is still shockingly high (to me anyway). I'm not 100% certain but I think only one failed and that was truly as core as you can get in her personality. "Wear the collar in public" fought directly against her submissiveness.

to return to the main point
looking at Nueva's post and considering my answer and your post here I think we're seeing it all pretty much the same except for the word "choice". I don't believe it's proper to say you "choose" your "default". I think you only choose something OTHER than the default. I think of the default as a non-choice. Wait... better way to say that... "The default is what happens when you don't choose."


< Message edited by JeffBC -- 8/29/2013 10:48:58 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/29/2013 10:54:10 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Very poetic.


I'm glad you think so. Yes, my wives would need to be wedded to a concept. Yes, my wives, I am not real and you are a coven of lesbian witches.

That was spoken in jest.

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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/29/2013 11:08:52 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
I'm glad you think so.

Wait.. just to be sure there was no miscommunication that "very poetic" was not at all sarcastic. In truth I've noted that some people tend to have a more poetic viewpoint and others a more pragmatic one. I was simply noting that yours was on the poetic side and liking it.



_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/29/2013 11:36:16 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
I'm glad you think so.

Wait.. just to be sure there was no miscommunication that "very poetic" was not at all sarcastic. In truth I've noted that some people tend to have a more poetic viewpoint and others a more pragmatic one. I was simply noting that yours was on the poetic side and liking it.


As you should. I did not take your words as sarcastic. I assumed the persona of the Wiccan God. In Wicca there is an emphasis on poetry. Fantasy and reality are blurred.

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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/29/2013 11:42:28 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
As you should. I did not take your words as sarcastic. I assumed the persona of the Wiccan God. In Wicca there is an emphasis on poetry. Fantasy and reality are blurred.

*nods* Then I'm pleased I got it right :)

By converse, I'm the engineer/mathematician type. So as an example, I couldn't swallow the word "total" in TPE without putting some specific and measurable bounds on it because otherwise... in a mathematical sense... total is impossible. So for me, she is my TPE slave because she has obeyed 100% of the commands I have given her. But that doesn't mean I don't also appreciate the more poetic view... possibly more so because it is "that which I don't already have"
[/hijack]


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/30/2013 12:21:09 AM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

I'm the engineer/mathematician type. So as an example, I couldn't swallow the word "total" in TPE without putting some specific and measurable bounds on it because otherwise... in a mathematical sense... total is impossible.


She can swallow it just fine. Is she perfect by deed or by fiat? Surely, she cannot be perfect by deed.

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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/30/2013 12:39:18 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
She can swallow it just fine. Is she perfect by deed or by fiat? Surely, she cannot be perfect by deed.

As I said to her, this is not some trick question and I'm not setting you up for failure. You will have to consciously make a choice to disobey.

The specific measurement is like this. Disobedience is defined as knowledgeable, willful disobedience. She is not perfect. She forgets things -- particularly if I put 2 or 3 glasses of wine in her. There are miscommunications. There's sometimes conflicting commands that she has to sort out. But she has never knowingly rejected a command.

So it is "by deed" but again, "deed" is defined into some reasonable measure not "perfection". For me it would always need to come down to something I can measure.. eg: well grounded in practical reality. In essence, all I've said to her is "You may choose to revert to "my wife" whenever you want and the way you do that is by saying 'No'". Once is all it takes and it's a one way trip. Once there's a single "no" then it can never be "total" again by these measures.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/30/2013 6:34:44 AM   
chatterbox24


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
I think this very interesting. Do you mind elaborating?

I can try but there isn't much to elaborate on. It's really very simple. For whatever reasons I tend to form a single pair bond and once that bond is formed there just isn't any interest or desire in another such one. I have no interest in fucking random women I don't love. I have no interest in loving anyone other than Carol. I'm just not interested. Once I am "mated" women other than my mate no longer look like "females" to me, they look like "people".

If you want to think of it this way, I prefer depth over breadth. Those are my "defaults".

Now... I've never been a huge believer i this whole "wired this way" gig that folks like to talk about. Sure, I think there are native proclivities and some of them are strong. But I also believe humans are highly adaptable if they choose to be. I think I could learn to like gay sex if I had some sort of strong motivation to do it. I think I could learn to like submission (at least in the relationship context) if I had some strong motivation to do it. So I think I can "rewire" myself in pretty much everything but to simply say "monogamy is a choice" is missing the entire point at least for me.

Monogamy would be more of a choice if I was one of those guys who liked getting as much pussy as possible. Then I'd need to make a conscious choice to remain monogamous. As it sits, I'm just doing what comes naturally.


For not having much to elaborate on, what a fine job ]

We are all highly adaptable if our minds are set in motion for it.
I have a question. Would you agree if it had not been Carol, your choices might have been much different? That its possibly things would have been rewired, since everyone is so pieced differently? I think its great how you feel about your wife and when people are compatible and two are working together for the good thinking beyond self, there is nothing better then that. Even when things get rough and your mind could venture elsewhere the problem is met head on and most times when things may look like that person cant fit the bill they will rise to the occasion to our great surprise.

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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/30/2013 7:01:48 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
I have a question. Would you agree if it had not been Carol, your choices might have been much different?

I'm not 100% sure I understand the question but I'll give you two different angles on "things might be different".

From the Jeff's monogamy standpoint no. That predates Carol. I'm the guy who has married every woman he ever dated (past college). So that part is pretty intrinsic to me.

But there's no question that I would be a different version of "me" if I had a different woman. I'd still be dominant but probably much less so within the relationship. I'd still be monogamous. But Carol has shaped me just as I have shaped her and for similar reasons.... we both want to be as perfect as we can be for each other. Her fingerprints are all over my soul, no question about it. The kind of intimacy levels I seek allow for nothing else.

And for the record, not once, not even in our deepest and darkest moments and we've had some doozies, did it ever even occur to me to think Carol couldn't fit the bill. I worried that I was going to be unable to fit her bill at one point... a fear she laughed off even as we couldn't even talk to each other about anything without crying.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/30/2013 7:28:09 AM   
chatterbox24


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Status: offline 		Both angles fit the question, thank you.
ITs great to hear of such solidity. Strength of rock and what an excellent example for the rest of us who are interested in that very thing.

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My crazy smells like jasmine, cloves and cat nip.

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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/30/2013 7:55:21 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
Both angles fit the question, thank you.
ITs great to hear of such solidity. Strength of rock and what an excellent example for the rest of us who are interested in that very thing.

You're welcome but this is where I start to get uncomfortable. I'm not a role model for anything. I've exhibited no strength. It takes little strength to "do nothing" and that's been my whole point about this "default monogamous" thing. I deserve no credit for that because I've expended absolutely zero effort to make it happen. Perhaps the inspirational thing for you will be to know that I am hardly alone in this. I am far from the only "default monogamous" guy I know.

Also, before you make me out to be too much of a rock, remember that I have done a LOT of work in Carol and enough in me to at least enable me to see an opportunity should it crop up. In that case though the reasoning process would not be "this woman is hot". It'd be "The threads of this human's life would add to the tapestry of our marriage." My motives remain unchanged and my vows to Carol remain absolute (well, the important self-written ones, not the canned reading stuff). But it's fair to say I'm at least "less of a rock" than I was if "monogamy" is how we're measuring that. ROFL, and here Carol and I are going through our 2nd darkest time in our marriage yet just two days ago she called me exactly that... "Her rock". So I must not be doing too badly in that category yet.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/30/2013 8:12:51 AM   
chatterbox24


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
Both angles fit the question, thank you.
ITs great to hear of such solidity. Strength of rock and what an excellent example for the rest of us who are interested in that very thing.

You're welcome but this is where I start to get uncomfortable. I'm not a role model for anything. I've exhibited no strength. It takes little strength to "do nothing" and that's been my whole point about this "default monogamous" thing. I deserve no credit for that because I've expended absolutely zero effort to make it happen. Perhaps the inspirational thing for you will be to know that I am hardly alone in this. I am far from the only "default monogamous" guy I know.

Also, before you make me out to be too much of a rock, remember that I have done a LOT of work in Carol and enough in me to at least enable me to see an opportunity should it crop up. In that case though the reasoning process would not be "this woman is hot". It'd be "The threads of this human's life would add to the tapestry of our marriage." My motives remain unchanged and my vows to Carol remain absolute (well, the important self-written ones, not the canned reading stuff). But it's fair to say I'm at least "less of a rock" than I was if "monogamy" is how we're measuring that. ROFL, and here Carol and I are going through our 2nd darkest time in our marriage yet just two days ago she called me exactly that... "Her rock". So I must not be doing too badly in that category yet.



Its a great thing to be humble. Its also a great thing to get a compliment and accept it lol.

Maybe I should have called it shifting sand? Nah.

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My crazy smells like jasmine, cloves and cat nip.

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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/30/2013 8:31:23 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
Its a great thing to be humble. Its also a great thing to get a compliment and accept it lol.

I agree but that wasn't false modesty... it was central to my entire point about "default monogamous".

I have a great deal of pride in the marriage I have built and I readily accept compliments on that. I'm very proud of being Carol's "rock" even in this awful moment between us. I just can't see getting a compliment for being monogamous. It'd be like getting a compliment for being male. I had nothing to do with it LOL.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/30/2013 1:50:25 PM   
TNDommeK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2

Fast reply

I have yet to hear of any example of a longstanding happy poly family except for Knight of Mist's family.



Um.....
<--- 15 yrs with hubby
The girls for over 5 yrs..

Happy poly family here.

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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/30/2013 1:53:09 PM   
TNDommeK


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Attachment (1)

< Message edited by TNDommeK -- 8/30/2013 1:54:36 PM >

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RE: Mono vs poly? - 8/30/2013 2:49:30 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

rofl...forcing Master into anything is like trying to force an elephant into a tiny barn. You just know it isn't going to end well.


My goodness! Subby think oozes from your pores.


Thank you!


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

... Now that's not to say we might not play with someone from time to time if the opportunity presented itself but neither of us considers that poly. It's just fucking around.

quote:


The problem with this as I see it is that suppose the female you as a couple are "fucking around" with becomes pregnant? As an aspiring polygamist, in such a case taking her under my wing is something I should consider. It is also a reson why it is important to be selective even if the goal was to fuck around.


Master doesn't choose willy nilly and we take every precaution necessary and he would make sure the woman involved did too. And I can't get pregnant so for me it's not a concern. Master isn't stupid and he doesn't choose stupid people.





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