Collarchat.com

Join Our Community		 Collarchat.com

Home  Login  Search 

RE: The Covert Messiah


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: The Covert Messiah Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 5:20:28 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
So like I said. Why do you always think you can go find some beginners explanation for something and it is the end all of something?

The above says, nothing in the Gospels is accurate, and we know most of it is patently untrue. Jews do not acknowledge Jesus as anything. There are no Jewish scripture with him (this despite the fact the Books of Maccabee were written within a century of the period in question).

But you will base your entire bizarre argument on a throwaway beginners explanation.

Let's see what a rabbi has to say:
http://ohr.edu/ask/ask00j.htm

Now I'll await your pathetic flailing trying to prop up the existence of Jesus despite absolutely no evidence what so ever existing anywhere at all.

See? With no snarky commentary, I simply quote a respectable Jewish source that disagrees with your alleged "knowledge of Jewish scholarship," and you turn around and throw a bag of shit at me.

When early Popes ordered that the Talmud be burned, there was dispute (and there remains dispute today) about whether or not the offending passages actually referred to Jesus.

And since you have now expanded your claim beyond "Jewish scholarship," allow me to point out that arguments against the historicity of Jesus based on the inventions and prevarications of the early Church lose much of their shine when confronted by the conspicuously non-canonical scrolls found at Nag Hammadi.

K.

The Talmud entries you claim establish a historical Jesus were not written any where near the first century CE, the section you're talking about was written around 500CE. So they are of absolutely no use and can be ignored.

Nag Hammadi is from the 2nd century AD. It is no more relevant to establishing the historicity of Jesus than any of the other claims. Why did you think stuff wriiten at least 100 years after the time in question would convince anyone? The Gospels are roughly the same age and they convince no scholars.

You would have been better off trotting out the Josephus quotes. One of them may be original and was written within the lifetime of people who may have been present, of course the parts that might be relevant are almost certainly added by Christians later so that would of course have been problematic.

The fact is there is not one shred of evidence supporting a historical Jesus. And Jewish scholars do not view Jesus as, if they consider him at all, important. Certainly he was not important enough for anyone to write down a single thing about him at the time.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 5:44:30 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressLily


Of the 3 versions of The Holy Bible I have read, I always go back to my family's 50-year-old KJV which has inscribed within "based on 1611 translation," and is the most commonly used edition that "follows the standard text of 1769, edited by Benjamin Blayney at Oxford" where "the New Testament was translated from Greek, the Old Testament was translated from Hebrew text, while the Apocrypha were translated from the Greek and Latin." Another KJV I've had on hand for 10 years is also "based on 1611 translation." Just saying.

They're all the abridged 1769 version. It is not very easy to get an original 1611 version. But keep in mind that the translation is considered one of the worst out there (the one the Jehovah's Witnesses use is pretty much the only worse one).

As to that long list of supposed prophecies fulfilled in the NT. If you go back to the original Hebrew and Aramaic you will find many do not translate in the way Christians usually translate them. Also making some stuff written centuries later conform to stuff written centuries earlier is fairly easy (although there are of course several glaring mistakes)

(in reply to TigressLily)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 7:23:32 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The Talmud entries you claim establish a historical Jesus were not written any where near the first century CE, the section you're talking about was written around 500CE. So they are of absolutely no use and can be ignored.

No cigar. The references to Jesus are in the Mishna (c. 200 CE). And while the early Church might be supposed to have had an interest in keeping any evidence of Jesus' non-historicity quiet, it seems difficult to imagine why the Jews would have any, or why the Talmud would contain references to him if he never existed.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/10/2013 7:26:11 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 7:31:27 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The Talmud entries you claim establish a historical Jesus were not written any where near the first century CE, the section you're talking about was written around 500CE. So they are of absolutely no use and can be ignored.

No cigar. The references to Jesus are in the Mishna (c. 200 CE). And while the early Church might be supposed to have had an interest in keeping any evidence of Jesus' non-historicity quiet, it seems difficult to imagine why the Jews would have any, and equally difficult to imagine why the Talmud would contain references to him if he never existed.

K.

The Mishnah was written down from an oral tradition. It is extremely likely that those references were added as the Christian cult became widespread.

So no, the Talmud does not provide any evidence that Jesus lived or that any of the supposed events of his life occurred. No one but Christian apologists and true believer fanatics fail to acknowledge there is no evidence at all of such a man's life or even existence. Virtually every detail of the larger events of the time described in the gospels are wrong as well.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 7:34:22 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Yeshu Ha-Notzri is indeed in the Mishna, (part of the Talmud). He is an historical figure, but no mention is made of any great this or that, really, other than his crucifiction. But same as Arthur who was a historical figure, and Odin a historical figure.


The mythological properties appeared to come way later with all of them. Sort of like a Washington chopping down the cherry tree (which never happened).


The stories grew in the telling, the best lies are the ones with points of truth in them.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 7:46:04 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yeshu Ha-Notzri is indeed in the Mishna, (part of the Talmud). He is an historical figure, but no mention is made of any great this or that, really, other than his crucifiction.

I beg to differ. Those references were written down at least 2 centuries after the time in question. The Rabbi in question clearly was not recounting personal experience but stories told to him by others. So all that shows is that by the 2nd century a Rabbi had heard a story about a Jesus.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 7:56:59 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

For me, the claim that "[t]he truths conveyed by religious myths do not depend on the historicity of the characters' is far more interesting and relevant. Does this claim stand up to scrutiny?

Mohammed is not a character in a religious myth. But setting that aside, the myth of a dying and resurrected god, for example, a god who descends into the underworld and rises again, has appeared in various forms in different places and times. 

The power of the myth is independent of the name of the divine hero. On a lesser scale, the myth of Echo and Narcissus would be no less powerful if the names were changed. We relate to these myths because they are about us.

This is true of many fairy tales as well. The tortoise and the hare would work just as well as a tale of the sloth and the monkey. These are stories about us, about our nature, and in religious myths about an aspect of our nature that we do not see.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/10/2013 8:07:41 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 7:57:54 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, I am saying nothing that says Jesus as he is known was a real person.

I can believe that in Nazareth there was a man named Joshua, a fairly common name in those days.

That would make him Yeshua Ha-Notzri Joshua from Nazareth. Just as my great grandfather and his father before him and so on was Knute Knutson fra Melby. Knute son of Knute from Melby, Norway.

I can imagine that there was at least one Joshua from Nazareth that at some point ran afoul of the law, and was crucified by Pontius Pilate.


That is some reasonable imagination, but it is proof of nothing that has anything to do with that guy being this guy of myth and legend.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 8:01:36 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:


On a lesser scale, the myth of Echo and Narcissus would be no less powerful if the names were changed . .



Not so fast there smut peddler; what would we call narcissists then? LOL.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 8:09:02 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Not so fast there smut peddler; what would we call narcissists then? LOL.

I regret that I am prevented by the TOS from making any suggestions.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/10/2013 8:21:43 AM >

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 8:21:37 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

For me, the claim that "[t]he truths conveyed by religious myths do not depend on the historicity of the characters' is far more interesting and relevant. Does this claim stand up to scrutiny?

Mohammed is not a character in a religious myth. But setting that aside, the myth of a dying and resurrected god, for example, a god who descends into the underworld and rises again, has appeared in various forms in different places and times. 

The power of the myth is independent of the name of the divine hero. On a lesser scale, the myth of Echo and Narcissus would be no less powerful if the names were changed. We relate to these myths because they are about us.

This is true of many fairy tales as well. The tortoise and the hare would work just as well as a tale of the sloth and the monkey. These are stories about us, about our nature, and in religious myths about an aspect of our nature that we do not see.

K.

But no one ever built a church for the tortoise and the hare. No crusade or jihad was ever launched in the names of the tortoise and the hare. Tweakabelle's question seems to have merit. At least in the Abrahamic traditions.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 8:23:13 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

But no one ever built a church for the tortoise and the hare. No crusade or jihad was ever launched in the names of the tortoise and the hare. Tweakabelle's question seems to have merit. At least in the Abrahamic traditions.

No religious myth has ever launched a jihad or a crusade either.

K.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 8:28:01 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

But no one ever built a church for the tortoise and the hare. No crusade or jihad was ever launched in the names of the tortoise and the hare. Tweakabelle's question seems to have merit. At least in the Abrahamic traditions.

No religious myth has ever launched a jihad or a crusade either.

K.


A surprisingly nit-picky reply since so obvously devoted followers have.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 9:30:36 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

But no one ever built a church for the tortoise and the hare. No crusade or jihad was ever launched in the names of the tortoise and the hare. Tweakabelle's question seems to have merit. At least in the Abrahamic traditions.

No religious myth has ever launched a jihad or a crusade either.

A surprisingly nit-picky reply since so obvously devoted followers have.

Name a religious myth that encourages and glorifies mayhem and violence.

K.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 9:33:27 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Nehemiah 4:17-18
Luke 22:36
Psalms 144:1
Judges 5:8
1 Samuel 25:13
Exodus 22:2


Oh, and much much more.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 9:53:29 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		From 2 Kings chapter 2
quote:

2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 10:01:27 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Nehemiah 4:17-18
Luke 22:36
Psalms 144:1
Judges 5:8
1 Samuel 25:13
Exodus 22:2

I thought I made it clear that by a religious myth I am referring to a story, a story that contains and is intended to convey a message, a truth, about the nature of Man and the nature of Reality. If I failed, or if you didn't read that post, please accept this as clarification.

I could have said, name a religious myth that encourages and glorifies homophobia, and Fred Phelps would be quick to pull verses of scripture out of his ass. But they wouldn't be answers to the question I asked. And with respect, neither are the ones you've cited.

K.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 10:06:18 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
I can imagine that there was at least one Joshua from Nazareth that at some point ran afoul of the law, and was crucified by Pontius Pilate.

I'm sure there was a Yeshua from Nazareth and probably he led some small Messianic cult, there were at least dozens of them around at the time. However the crucifiction story just doesn't make sense.

Crucifiction was reserved for crimes against Rome not for some guy who ticked off the local holy men. Secondly the Romans would never have executed a man on the Sabbath as it was Roman policy to not offend the local religious sensibilities and death by crucifiction typically took days. This would have been even more true about the Passover Sabbath. Third if he had done something to get crucified the Romans would not have left his followers alone, when the Romans put down Spartacus' rebellion, the Third Servile War, the surviving rebels were all crucified lining the Appian Way from Rome to Capua.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 10:08:27 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Nehemiah 4:17-18
Luke 22:36
Psalms 144:1
Judges 5:8
1 Samuel 25:13
Exodus 22:2

I thought I made it clear that by a religious myth I am referring to a story, a story that contains and is intended to convey a message, a truth, about the nature of Man and the nature of Reality. If I failed, or if you didn't read that post, please accept this as clarification.

I could have said, name a religious myth that encourages and glorifies homophobia, and Fred Phelps would be quick to pull verses of scripture out of his ass. But they wouldn't be answers to the question I asked. And with respect, neither are the ones you've cited.

K.

2 Kings chapter 2 seems to convey a message about what the author considered the nature of reality. That is if children make fun of a bald prophet god just might send a couple of bears to tear those children into pieces.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 10:11:52 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Oh, well then; Sodom and Gemorrah, The Ark, Revelations. And so on.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 40
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: The Covert Messiah Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2024
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.102