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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 9:01:39 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well, so you are arguing mordantly something that holds no commerce?  I fain fuckin disbelieve it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And such proof is forthcoming? Nah, he walked among men, he is able to hide himself in the garden, or the burning bush, or in the holy of holies, cmon, this aint fuckin Dobie Gillis here. Or send his kid down here, lets here it from the actual guys.......they did it before they can do it again, and they can do it continuously.

This is IAM, he can do anything.
Please translate this into English for those of us that have no idea what language you are using. ;-)



Both are in pretty common English.  You can grab up a dictionary, or even google mordant and fain if they throw you.

That is all I could see that may not be in everyday slang.  Dobie Gillis, dunno didn't perve your age.  You can look him up as well.

I can produce the argument, but not the understanding.  

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 141
RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 9:24:07 AM   
EdBowie


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In order to supplant the existing religions of the time, it is necessary to have a harsh god who can kick their god's ass. And it is necessary to scare people into the fold.

After that, the 'Good god, bad god' game can commence, with the salvation promise that people can safely be hypocrites about eating shellfish etc. as long as they sign onto the new covenant.

If it that closely resembles a scam, and billions of dollars have vanished into church coffers over the centuries... Is it a scam?






quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

True. But we must not forget that the Old Testament contained a harsh, brutal and unforgiving law. There was no salvation or deliverance in the Old Testament. There was no hope. There was no "Abundant Life."

Sometimes we are taught by being shown what to do. But a good deal of the Old Testament is to show us "what not to do."


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
...
I don't see where God told Solomon he was god like just because he had knowledge or because he was a ruler. In fact it is implied in the Bible that a ruler is actually to be the servant to the people. If you are really interested in discussing this from a Christian perspective then you are not going to address much of Christianity in the old testament. Christianity by definition is walking in the way of "The Christ."
...
Many Christians feel that the "old testament" was a tutor that leads to "The Christ" and so there is much there to help them to understand how to walk in the way of the "The Christ".






_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 142
RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 9:46:59 AM   
MsMJAY


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Since love of money is the root of all evil, I am inclined to believe that anything with enough money involved in it probably has a scam of some sort going on in it.

Anytime people have tried to establish "religion" there have always been scammers and shysters and self-serving assholes getting in on the act. (Its human nature) Fortunately we don't need a human intermediary to communicate with or connect with our Higher Power. One does not need to seek "religion" in order to seek "God".

Religion is a man made construct filled with (maybe) some historical facts, lots of rules and a whole lot of opinion.
God is a spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth. John 4:24

Much of the problem with religion is that historically man would rather worship the creation than the Creator.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

In order to supplant the existing religions of the time, it is necessary to have a harsh god who can kick their god's ass. And it is necessary to scare people into the fold.

After that, the 'Good god, bad god' game can commence, with the salvation promise that people can safely be hypocrites about eating shellfish etc. as long as they sign onto the new covenant.

If it that closely resembles a scam, and billions of dollars have vanished into church coffers over the centuries... Is it a scam?






quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

True. But we must not forget that the Old Testament contained a harsh, brutal and unforgiving law. There was no salvation or deliverance in the Old Testament. There was no hope. There was no "Abundant Life."

Sometimes we are taught by being shown what to do. But a good deal of the Old Testament is to show us "what not to do."


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
...
I don't see where God told Solomon he was god like just because he had knowledge or because he was a ruler. In fact it is implied in the Bible that a ruler is actually to be the servant to the people. If you are really interested in discussing this from a Christian perspective then you are not going to address much of Christianity in the old testament. Christianity by definition is walking in the way of "The Christ."
...
Many Christians feel that the "old testament" was a tutor that leads to "The Christ" and so there is much there to help them to understand how to walk in the way of the "The Christ".







(in reply to EdBowie)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 10:07:02 AM   
Milesnmiles


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
The Old Testament is the written account of the faith that Jesus was born into and came out of. It is filled with Rape, incest, murder, revenge, racism, genocide...... you name it. These things did not happen among people who turned away from God. Most of it happened amongst people who believed they were called by God and believed that they were ordained by God to do these things.
The simple fact is that most of that violence was not condoned by God and although the ones who did them may have said they were God's people and where doing it in God's name, they were not. Much of the "Old Testament" is history and is just the truth of what happen and because it is in the Bible it should not be assumed that all that happened was approved by God.

quote:

I have often tell people that without Jesus, the Bible would have been a completely wasted book. I know Christians like to downplay the brutality that took place in the Old Testament but the Bible does not downplay it. Based on Biblical accounts alone we cannot even count the millions of people who were slaughtered in the OT. (Then everyone praised God after the slaughter.) I could even allude to the despicable way that women were treated in the OT. We cannot deny these things happened and it is disingenuous to pretend that it "wasn't that bad" or that it was somehow good because later on Jesus was born.
Yes without Jesus, it would be a wasted book because Jesus is the whole point of the Bible.

Hopefully you are not implying that those who were killed were innocent, as some will say. Some of those "innocents" burned their children alive as a sacrifice to their false gods. Hopefully you are not saying God should have let that continue.

Yes, tell me about the despicable treatment of women like Sarah, Rahab, Ruth, Shiphrah, Puah and the widow of Zarephath.

No, we cannot deny these things happened or that it "wasn't that bad" but these things are still happening all around us, it is the result of men using their free will without regard for God or the consequences.
quote:

The legacy of Christianity is that it stems from a very violent and brutal history. We need stop denying that.
No, true Christianity has no "violent and brutal history" and any who believe that do not know what Christianity is.

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Profile   Post #: 144
RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 10:15:23 AM   
Milesnmiles


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well, so you are arguing mordantly something that holds no commerce?  I fain fuckin disbelieve it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And such proof is forthcoming? Nah, he walked among men, he is able to hide himself in the garden, or the burning bush, or in the holy of holies, cmon, this aint fuckin Dobie Gillis here. Or send his kid down here, lets here it from the actual guys.......they did it before they can do it again, and they can do it continuously.

This is IAM, he can do anything.
Please translate this into English for those of us that have no idea what language you are using. ;-)



Both are in pretty common English.  You can grab up a dictionary, or even google mordant and fain if they throw you.

That is all I could see that may not be in everyday slang.  Dobie Gillis, dunno didn't perve your age.  You can look him up as well.

I can produce the argument, but not the understanding.  
Plain English, yea right. Instead of trying to be "hip" and using "everyday slang", try using common English language structure, so what you are saying is understandable to someone over the age of 12. ;-)

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 10:20:46 AM   
Milesnmiles


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

In order to supplant the existing religions of the time, it is necessary to have a harsh god who can kick their god's ass. And it is necessary to scare people into the fold.

After that, the 'Good god, bad god' game can commence, with the salvation promise that people can safely be hypocrites about eating shellfish etc. as long as they sign onto the new covenant.

If it that closely resembles a scam, and billions of dollars have vanished into church coffers over the centuries... Is it a scam?
Perhaps you never read the scripture; YOU received free, give free. (Matthew 10:8)

Maybe your problem is that you can't see the truth for the scams.



(in reply to EdBowie)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 10:32:57 AM   
mnottertail


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Well, that precludes you in terms of comprehension then, entirely. You might 'Learne Englische as she is goodley spokene'.  (Chaucer being some three hundred years older than King James, no?) 

My words are common everyday English structure, all nouns correct, all verbs and adverbs correct, the articles in place where necessary, and subjects agreeing in tense with their objects.

If you are unable to comprehend the English language or it is your second language, and you are tottering in a miasma of uncomprehension in a short statment whose Flesch-Kincaid  score cannot possibly exceed the fifth grade, and you are incapable of traversing it, or at least tangentially cognizant that I said something that any common fucking cretin can understand, perhaps your bowing out is the better part of your valor. 


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 10:41:28 AM   
Milesnmiles


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well, that precludes you in terms of comprehension then, entirely. You might 'Learne Englische as she is goodley spokene'.  (Chaucer being some three hundred years older than King James, no?) 

My words are common everyday English structure, all nouns correct, all verbs and adverbs correct, the articles in place where necessary, and subjects agreeing in tense with their objects.

If you are unable to comprehend the English language or it is your second language, and you are tottering in a miasma of uncomprehension in a short statment whose Flesch-Kincaid  score cannot possibly exceed the fifth grade, and you are incapable of traversing it, or at least tangentially cognizant that I said something that any common fucking cretin can understand, perhaps your bowing out is the better part of your valor. 

Thanks, much better. I knew you could do if you tried.

And I don't even mind that uncomprehension does not appear to be a real word and that you misspelled statement. ;-)

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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 10:54:45 AM   
mnottertail


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It's all gone; say the words Flakey Dove and I gape in uncomprehension.
Memory bank in crisis due to number of deposits byThe Racing Post (London, England)

Wales' recent record is so impressive as to provoke their supporters to a once-familiar pitch of expectation, but there is a certain amount of uncomprehension that Graham Henry, the coach, having built up the side as well as he has, is talking down their chances.
Crowd of outsiders look forward to gatecrashing elite party; Michael ... by The Birmingham Post (England)

...inspires in Miss Mount an almost uncontrollable urge to kiss Regina, if only she could "rely on [royalty's]uncomprehension - of everything" (71).
'The Finishing Touch' and the tradition of homoerotic girls' school ... by Blackmer, Corinne E. / The Review of Contemporary Fiction

And them blokes went to some pretty good schools, wot?  so have you penciled out what I have said previously or are you still mentally constipated regarding the thoughts I have expressed far more lucidly than the last?

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 1/9/2014 11:12:45 AM >


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 11:12:08 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
quote:

The legacy of Christianity is that it stems from a very violent and brutal history. We need stop denying that.
No, true Christianity has no "violent and brutal history" and any who believe that do not know what Christianity is.

I would suggest you re-read some history.
Christianity, and in fact most religions, are based on a very violent and brutal history.

Have you not heard of the Templar wars, nick-named The Crusades?
Very christian-based brutality performed in the name of 'god' all over the world.

Mayhap that it is you that has no idea of what christianity is.

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Profile   Post #: 150
RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 11:13:45 AM   
Milesnmiles


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

It's all gone; say the words Flakey Dove and I gape inuncomprehension.Memor y bank in crisis due to number of deposits byThe Racing Post (London, England)Wales' recent record is so impressive as to provoke their supporters to a once-familiar pitch of expectation, but there is a certain amount of uncomprehension that Graham Henry, the coach, having built up the side as well as he has, is talking down their chances.Crowd of outsiders look forward to gatecrashing elite party; Michael ... by The Birmingham Post (England)inspires in Miss Mount an almost uncontrollable urge to kiss Regina, if only she could "rely on [royalty's]uncomprehension - of everything" (71).'The Finishing Touch' and the tradition of homoerotic girls' school ... by Blackmer, Corinne E. / The Review of Contemporary Fiction  And them blokes went to some pretty good schools, wot?  so have you penciled out what I have said previously or are you still mentally constipated regarding the thoughts I have expressed far more lucidly than the last? 
No problem here.

I just thought you might actually like to carry on a conversation with others but I see now your mental diarrhea has gotten the better of you.

Are you seeing a doctor for that? ;-)

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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 11:15:35 AM   
mnottertail


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And Jericho delivered into their hands, and places that became a taunt and a hiss and destroyed to the last man woman and child, no one escaping from YHWHs wrath under pain of their own destruction (Israels).

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 152
RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 11:17:55 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

I have to decide if it is worthwhile to discuss this with you. This is not the first time I've had this discussion, not my first rodeo. It seems this subject upsets you and you maybe even have a "dog in this fight". I do not, I just enjoy discussing it and have no vested interest in the subject and could argue either side but usually defend God and the Bible because there always seems to be more on the other side. Most of what you say is new to you but it is "old stuff" to me. So if you feel willing to stretch the discussion and not just keep repeating the same things over and over again without thinking about and addressing the points I've given, lets go for it but if not then I give up, you win, I've never read such insightful arguments in my life. ;-)

It is 'old stuff' to you and you still evade rather than try to explore the issue. If you would reply to my comments I would happily move on. Your idea of insightful arguments seems to be to issue quotes from the Bible. Instead you adopt a pose of transparently phony superiority. Pathetic.

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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 11:19:03 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

It's all gone; say the words Flakey Dove and I gape inuncomprehension.Memor y bank in crisis due to number of deposits byThe Racing Post (London, England)Wales' recent record is so impressive as to provoke their supporters to a once-familiar pitch of expectation, but there is a certain amount of uncomprehension that Graham Henry, the coach, having built up the side as well as he has, is talking down their chances.Crowd of outsiders look forward to gatecrashing elite party; Michael ... by The Birmingham Post (England)inspires in Miss Mount an almost uncontrollable urge to kiss Regina, if only she could "rely on [royalty's]uncomprehension - of everything" (71).'The Finishing Touch' and the tradition of homoerotic girls' school ... by Blackmer, Corinne E. / The Review of Contemporary Fiction  And them blokes went to some pretty good schools, wot?  so have you penciled out what I have said previously or are you still mentally constipated regarding the thoughts I have expressed far more lucidly than the last? 
No problem here.

I just thought you might actually like to carry on a conversation with others but I see now your mental diarrhea has gotten the better of you.

Are you seeing a doctor for that? ;-)



nope, just deriding those who have no idea that uncomprehension is a word, and that a mispelling the word statement makes them lose all connections with cogent discourse.



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 154
RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 11:52:27 AM   
MsMJAY


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ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


The simple fact is that most of that violence was not condoned by God and although the ones who did them may have said they were God's people and where doing it in God's name, they were not. Much of the "Old Testament" is history and is just the truth of what happen and because it is in the Bible it should not be assumed that all that happened was approved by God.

The Israelites said God told them to invade other lands, kill everyone than take the property for themselves. Christianity celebrates this as God giving his people victory. It still meant the genocide of the Canaanites the Hittites, the Amalekites, etc. Christianity teaches that this genocide was God ordained.



Hopefully you are not implying that those who were killed were innocent, as some will say. Some of those "innocents" burned their children alive as a sacrifice to their false gods. Hopefully you are not saying God should have let that continue.

None of us are innocent. (There is none righteous no not one. Romans 3:10) But it is quite a tap dance to say that because they were killing their own children the Israelites were justified in killing them AND their children (except the hot young virgins) and THIS is God ordained?

Yes, tell me about the despicable treatment of women like Sarah, Rahab, Ruth, Shiphrah, Puah and the widow of Zarephath.

Sarah was pimped out by her own husband, twice
Rahab was a whore who assisted in the genocide of her own people in exchange for her own life. (She is considered a hero.)
Ruth became a beggar because her husband died and her story is about her marrying well.
Shipirah and Puah were slaves
The widow of Zarpheth was poor and destitute and left to fend for herself (Yes, I know God helped her. I never said GOD mistreated women.)
Exodus 21 instructs fathers to sell their daughter then “redeem her” if she’s not sexing her husband in a satisfactory way.
If a woman could not “prove” she was a virgin on her wedding night her husband could have her put to death.
Inheritances went to the closest male relative (females were SOL)
If an engaged or married woman was raped and did not scream loud enough she could be stoned along with her rapist.
If she was not engaged or married the rapist just paid her father and she was forced to marry her rapist.
women were forced to drink poison if their husband thought they had cheated on him (Even though he could have 400 wives and 300 concubines if he could afford to buy them all.)
Numbers 31 the Medianite virgin women were taken as sex slaves. (the Israelites said God ordained it)
Women were given away as prizes Judges 1:12
Offered as sacrifice Judges 11:29
Gang raped, mutilated and murdered after being given by her own husbands- Judges 19:22



No, we cannot deny these things happened or that it "wasn't that bad" but these things are still happening all around us, it is the result of men using their free will without regard for God or the consequences.

All of the acts were free will. But a great many of them are still condoned and justified by most Christian sects. (the genocide I mentioned earlier, the stonings that took place under OT law, women being treated like second class citizens)

No, true Christianity has no "violent and brutal history" and any who believe that do not know what Christianity is.

Anyone who believes that Christianity did not stem from a violent brutal history either has not read the Bible or is in denial. The violence was definitely not what Jesus preached or taught; but when we call the Old Testament our "Tutor that led us to Christ" we are alluding to very bloody, violent and brutal history.

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Profile   Post #: 155
RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 11:57:26 AM   
EdBowie


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Textbook example of the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

The simple fact is that most of that violence was not condoned by God and although the ones who did them may have said they were God's people and where doing it in God's name, they were not. Much of the "Old Testament" is history and is just the truth of what happen and because it is in the Bible it should not be assumed that all that happened was approved by God.
SNIP
Hopefully you are not implying that those who were killed were innocent, as some will say. Some of those "innocents" burned their children alive as a sacrifice to their false gods. Hopefully you are not saying God should have let that continue.

Yes, tell me about the despicable treatment of women like Sarah, Rahab, Ruth, Shiphrah, Puah and the widow of Zarephath.

No, we cannot deny these things happened or that it "wasn't that bad" but these things are still happening all around us, it is the result of men using their free will without regard for God or the consequences.
No, true Christianity has no "violent and brutal history" and any who believe that do not know what Christianity is.




< Message edited by EdBowie -- 1/9/2014 12:15:16 PM >


_____________________________

Reading for understanding, instead of for argumentation, has its advantages.

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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 12:04:28 PM   
mnottertail


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So, what you are saying is..........All true scotsmen are christian?

Wow.

LOL.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 12:08:27 PM   
Milesnmiles


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And Jericho delivered into their hands, and places that became a taunt and a hiss and destroyed to the last man woman and child, no one escaping from YHWHs wrath under pain of their own destruction (Israels).
Yep, another group of "innocent" Canaanites put to death by the Israelites under YHWHs direction.

And then there are the ones who complain that YHWHs doesn't do this more often.

YHWH just can't catch a break, damned if you do and damned if you don't. ;-)

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Profile   Post #: 158
RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 12:08:32 PM   
EdBowie


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Absolutely!
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

So, what you are saying is..........All true scotsmen are christian?

Wow.

LOL.



_____________________________

Reading for understanding, instead of for argumentation, has its advantages.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 12:11:14 PM   
mnottertail


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Well, its gonna make sense then, this thread till this very point.  Otherwise, I would have classed it as pure rubbish.

So, there is a god.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to EdBowie)
Profile   Post #: 160
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