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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 5:10:37 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bubbabarrett31

i have never read the ultimate guide to the universe. now i have to because it sounds intriguing can you give me info on that.

the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" is a comic science fiction series created by Douglas Adams, a fun read especially if you like sci-fi. But I brought it up because it talks about the answer to the ultimate question. I believe the answer is 49 and then they have go back and figure out what in the world the question was. It seemed applicable when you were talking about the ultimate question without telling us what you thought the question was. ;-)

quote:

i have been to see stephen hawkins speak three times the last two were the same subject but kinda a little revised the second time. I was entitled "the universe in a nutshell" great lecture i'm not sure how to find it but maybe you can look it up and every since then i've been searching for the answers to these questions i cant get off my mind. sleep deprived definitely an accurate observation the speeches were in 1999 and early 2000 if i recall correctly

Wow, that must have been great.

(in reply to bubbabarrett31)

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 5:13:33 AM

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No. You do not replace knowledge with faith. You begin with faith. Then you add to your faith - virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, charity 2 Peter 1:5-8. According to the Bible if you grow into all of these you will never lack spiritual knowledge (As it pertains to Christianity/Jesus Christ.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bubbabarrett31

thank you for sharing your knowledge every one but i still want more opinions on the subject before i form one of my on evry one so far has been leaning towards the phrase i get most often, but noone has yet said the words so i'll throw it out there maybe it will help open the toung of some people just reading ond keeping there comments to their self the phrase is "you got to have faith" and supposidly it answers all the questions. looking foward to readind the post on that but in retro specct you replace knowledge with faith rite or no

(in reply to bubbabarrett31)

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 5:22:58 AM

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I believe that book knowledge cannot draw us closer to God. It can guide us in our seeking but our closeness to of God is based on relationship and must be experienced. Long after they burn your Bible, long after declare the old Saints to be liars, and long after science "proves" all their theories. The one thing they can never undo is what you directly experienced from (and with) God. It cannot be reasoned away, it cannot be taken away and that is why people were willing to die for it. Even if what they read and were taught was a lie, they knew that what they experienced was real. That is the godliness we seek and the godliness that transforms lives.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
...
Knowledge cannot make you more godly no matter how much of it you obtain.
...

I pretty much agreed with the rest but thought, the universe is filled with God's infinite wisdom and so the more knowledge we take in, the better we would know the mind of God and thus would help us draw closer to God.

(in reply to Milesnmiles)

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 5:32:23 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bubbabarrett31

2 Chronicles 1:11
God said to Solomon, “Since this is your heart’s desire and you have not asked for wealth, possessions or honor, nor for the death of your enemies, and since you have not asked for a long life but for wisdom and knowledge to govern my people over whom I have made you king,
2 Chronicles 1:10-12 (in Context) 2 Chronicles 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
2 Chronicles 1:12
therefore wisdom and knowledge will be given you. And I will also give you wealth, possessions and honor, such as no king who was before you ever had and none after you will have.”

so here its saying that god gave knowledge to rule the people. So if you rule the people you are god like right and that's not right because he created everyone, and everyone is equal in his eyes.
maybe my confusion is steaming from the bible itself i cant fathom how so many people fallow a book that was written hundreds of years after the stories took place which took place over hundreds of years as a basis of fact to live their life by. that is the problem i keep running into. any opinion on why this causes problems i cant find a resource to cross reference the actual facts embedded with in the bible. maybe that would be the pursuit of knowledge that would be a sin not using it for evil but for knowledge.

It depends on what you believe. If you believe there is no God and the Bible is just a collection of nice stories, then it really doesn't make sense that "so many people follow a book that was written hundreds of years after the stories took place which took place over hundreds of years as a basis of fact to live their life by."

But most people that live their lives by the Bible feel that there is a God and he had various people write down for others what was needed to help them with their lives and lead them to God. Since by definition God is ultimate wisdom, if he had a book written, studying it would help us toward God and ultimate wisdom and also help us get the most of our lives.

As for references, on the internet you will find articles that will both agree and disagree with whatever you want to think about the Bible. So in the end one has to check it out for themselves and decide what place the Bible holds in their lives; good book, bad book, word of God.

(in reply to bubbabarrett31)

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 5:34:27 AM

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The answer is 42, 49 is a derail.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Milesnmiles)

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 5:35:27 AM

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But then by that definition, anything one experiences that seems supernatural is a connection to god. So does that mean someone with Schizophrenia who sees hallucinations are actually visions from god? Or moments connecting to god? Where is the line between mental disorder/ crazy and faith/religion in a god? Or is it all the same with differing degrees of severity?

(in reply to MsMJAY)

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 5:40:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
...
I don't see where God told Solomon he was god like just because he had knowledge or because he was a ruler. In fact it is implied in the Bible that a ruler is actually to be the servant to the people. If you are really interested in discussing this from a Christian perspective then you are not going to address much of Christianity in the old testament. Christianity by definition is walking in the way of "The Christ."
...

Many Christians feel that the "old testament" was a tutor that leads to "The Christ" and so there is much there to help them to understand how to walk in the way of the "The Christ".

(in reply to MsMJAY)

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 5:48:47 AM

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Yes, the laws of leviticus, which he pretty much dismissed.
Eye for an eye, he dismissed.
Ritual, dismissed.
War, dismissed.
sacrificing children, dismissed.
and so on.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Milesnmiles)

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 5:56:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
If God is the Creator of life than he is responsible for the existence of pathogens which are harmful to humans. Giving rules to humans does not absolve god from responsibility for the suffering he imposed on humankind. He is either malevolent or impotent. I don't recall anything in the Commandments that says "Thou Shalt Not suffer Germs."

Innocent children continue today to suffer pain and death from earthquakes, tsunamis, tornados, hurricanes, volcanos, and pathogens. God is either merciless or without power. Maybe he is Evil.

Okay, there is no God, now what are you going to do, who are you going to blame for these things. Pathogens, isn't it man's fault for not using simple health measures. Even hurricane Katrina has been called a man made disaster because it was known for years that many things had to done to protect the city but were not done. Who's fault is that men live on the side of volcanoes and on earthquake fault lines. Isn't it about time that people like you start standing up, taking responsibility for your own "sins" and stop tying to blame a God that doesn't exist?

Firstly, I am not blaming god if he does not exist. If he does exist he is either a mean bastard or indifferent to the sufferings of his creations, and the passage is a lie that tells us 'god so loved man that he gave his only begotten son, yatta, yatta.' Mean or indifferent or non-existent?? Your choice.

As to where we live, mankind has inhabited every niche and cranny on this tiny planet. There is hardly a place of safety from god's disasters. If there is we would not all fit there, so your suggestion that we are to blame for living in dangerous places is hilariously absurd. For the most part humans lack property and live in crowded areas already, many not far from the place of their birth. And here you come along and suggest that choice of living accommodations is a SIN! Ludicrous in the extreme. Is it your religion who teaches you to blame the victims.

And germs: pathogens, like all predators evolve to adapt to the defenses of their prey. Does god encourage their adaptations or does he not simply care? Or maybe he isn't there.

The question is as old as Job. Why does a benevolent god permit suffering of the innocent? The answers seem unsatisfying to me other than there is no god and thus religion and all the quotes from your ancient books are nonsense that keep mankind in ignorance.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/9/2014 6:09:59 AM >

(in reply to Milesnmiles)

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 5:56:12 AM

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Quite honestly, it might all be the same. Who knows? Perhaps from a spiritual point of view, those types of mental disorders are some type of "spiritual overload." Maybe the actually ARE seeing into the spiritual realm. However; every access to the spiritual realm is not necessarily connecting with God (or "Good"). According to my faith there is God/good and evil. Depending on your heart, your motives and your desires you can access either one. For myself the line is drawn with your actions. (He who does right is righteous. 1 John 3:7) If you believe you are connecting with God and you are causing no harm to yourself or others, seek on. If what you are doing is harming yourself or others then whether or not you are experiencing something spiritual becomes irrelevant at that point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

But then by that definition, anything one experiences that seems supernatural is a connection to god. So does that mean someone with Schizophrenia who sees hallucinations are actually visions from god? Or moments connecting to god? Where is the line between mental disorder/ crazy and faith/religion in a god? Or is it all the same with differing degrees of severity?

(in reply to Tkman117)

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 6:02:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bubbabarrett31

point taken, but did they have documented written history during that time , honest question. if so who controlled the documents and translated them through out the years of power struggles and wars of tribes and did they translate correctly or did they minipulate the words to help control the people by making them fear hell. did they do any thing to govern what was kept as record. that makes me think deeper into what i really believe and i'm tring to straghten that out any suggestions on literature to help me cross referance the stories or whats being said in the confusing tounge of the day.

Once again if there is no God or the Bible is just a good book written by men all these question are important but if the Bible is the word of God, then God would be able to control what has been in the Bible, so that down through the age mankind would always be able the get what they need from it.

As for "who controlled the documents and translated them" for many years the bible was left in the hands of of the Israelites and since it was written on "paper", it had to be copied over and over again. The scribes who did this would count the number of words and the number of letters and if there was a discrepancy the would destroy it and make another. They were meticulous because they believe it was the "word of God".

(in reply to bubbabarrett31)

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 6:04:02 AM

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True. But we must not forget that the Old Testament contained a harsh, brutal and unforgiving law. There was no salvation or deliverance in the Old Testament. There was no hope. There was no "Abundant Life."

Sometimes we are taught by being shown what to do. But a good deal of the Old Testament is to show us "what not to do."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
...
I don't see where God told Solomon he was god like just because he had knowledge or because he was a ruler. In fact it is implied in the Bible that a ruler is actually to be the servant to the people. If you are really interested in discussing this from a Christian perspective then you are not going to address much of Christianity in the old testament. Christianity by definition is walking in the way of "The Christ."
...

Many Christians feel that the "old testament" was a tutor that leads to "The Christ" and so there is much there to help them to understand how to walk in the way of the "The Christ".

(in reply to Milesnmiles)

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 6:16:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
If God is the Creator of life than he is responsible for the existence of pathogens which are harmful to humans. Giving rules to humans does not absolve god from responsibility for the suffering he imposed on humankind. He is either malevolent or impotent. I don't recall anything in the Commandments that says "Thou Shalt Not suffer Germs."

Innocent children continue today to suffer pain and death from earthquakes, tsunamis, tornados, hurricanes, volcanos, and pathogens. God is either merciless or without power. Maybe he is Evil.

Okay, there is no God, now what are you going to do, who are you going to blame for these things. Pathogens, isn't it man's fault for not using simple health measures. Even hurricane Katrina has been called a man made disaster because it was known for years that many things had to done to protect the city but were not done. Who's fault is that men live on the side of volcanoes and on earthquake fault lines. Isn't it about time that people like you start standing up, taking responsibility for your own "sins" and stop tying to blame a God that doesn't exist?

Firstly, I am not blaming god if he does not exist. If he does exist he is either a mean bastard or indifferent to the sufferings of his creations, and the passage is a lie that tells us 'god so loved man that he gave his only begotten son, yatta, yatta.' Mean or indifferent or non-existent?? Your choice.

He is not indifferent. He just does not interfere in places where he is not wanted. (Who do you think God is? The United States?)

We cannot have it both ways. If we choose to exercise our free will then the outcome of our choices are our own. Most Christians believe that God intervenes in our individual lives if we invite Him in and surrender our (free) will in exchange for His will.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 6:24:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bubbabarrett31

thank you for sharing your knowledge every one but i still want more opinions on the subject before i form one of my on evry one so far has been leaning towards the phrase i get most often, but noone has yet said the words so i'll throw it out there maybe it will help open the toung of some people just reading ond keeping there comments to their self the phrase is "you got to have faith" and supposidly it answers all the questions. looking foward to readind the post on that but in retro specct you replace knowledge with faith rite or no

No. Although many believe in "blind" Faith, as you say, the replacement of knowledge with faith; the Bible does not agree. The definition of Faith in the Bible is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld. (Hebrews 11:1)

Faith is like the sun rising tomorrow. You have witnessed it every day of your life and although there is a chance that it may not rise tomorrow, you don't believe that in fact you even consider it, then you have faith that it will. Likewise you can have faith in God and his promises. As you get to know God and apply that knowledge in your life, you get to know that it works and then if something comes up that you say I don't think that will work or is a not good idea, you stop and think every thing else has worked I'll do it, that is faith.

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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 6:25:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And as to your other dare, fine lets test your sinful knowledge.

Why did Jesus kill the fig tree?

There were no fig on it and so Jesus killed it so he could teach his disciple a lesson. why do you ask?

Lol, the depth and breath of your knowledge is as unastounding as the sun rising from the east.

Thanks.

Q.E.D.

Okay

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RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 6:29:43 AM

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To the OP, for me faith came first which means a belief thus birth religion then knowledge. Knowledge is not the root of all evil...Money is. Knowledge is a gift but if not used in the proper spirit it can harm. We want to know more...because we are curious human beings and easily influenced hence Adam & Eve is an example of that. Anyway those are my comments based from your first post...I did not have time to read all post.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 6:36:24 AM

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quote:

Now, here is what I think is the amazing thing about christianity. Its not only christ dying and being raised from the dead.
Its that 11 men that lived with him, saw him daily, worked with him. Saw enough to believe and to go to all ends of the earth preaching the gospel.

But look how many followed Jim Jones and David Koresh. Proves nothing except the number of the gullible varies from place to place and time to time.

quote:

And many of the disciples died in horrible fashion: crucifiction (upside down), impalement, stoning, flaying.

Not unusual methods of execution then and in some places even today. Again, takes us nowhere.

(in reply to Phydeaux)

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 6:41:18 AM

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quote:

He is not indifferent. He just does not interfere in places where he is not wanted. (Who do you think God is? The United States?)
We cannot have it both ways. If we choose to exercise our free will then the outcome of our choices are our own. Most Christians believe that God intervenes in our individual lives if we invite Him in and surrender our (free) will in exchange for His will.

Free will, if indeed we have it, is not a factor in the death of children by natural (god made?) disasters that I mentioned.

(in reply to MsMJAY)

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 6:49:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bubbabarrett31

thank you for sharing your knowledge every one but i still want more opinions on the subject before i form one of my on evry one so far has been leaning towards the phrase i get most often, but noone has yet said the words so i'll throw it out there maybe it will help open the toung of some people just reading ond keeping there comments to their self the phrase is "you got to have faith" and supposidly it answers all the questions. looking foward to readind the post on that but in retro specct you replace knowledge with faith rite or no

The phrase is a conversation killer used by the religious when they feel that their most cherished precepts are endangered by reason. It is also a demand for respect of whatever their opinion might be, which is another guise for chilling opposition. Faith is belief without evidence so end of rational discussion. Welcome to P&R, btw, and don't be put off because we do tend to get a bit snippy with each other down here in the basement. It keeps the Moderators awake.

(in reply to bubbabarrett31)

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge - 1/9/2014 6:55:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

But then by that definition, anything one experiences that seems supernatural is a connection to god. So does that mean someone with Schizophrenia who sees hallucinations are actually visions from god? Or moments connecting to god? Where is the line between mental disorder/ crazy and faith/religion in a god? Or is it all the same with differing degrees of severity?

In history, people who saw visions and heard voices were either sanctified or stoned. In a somewhat similar fashion the same thing continues today. George W Bush and Sarah Palin are sanctified by some. The mentally ill are metaphorically stoned by many. Welcome to P&R.

(in reply to Tkman117)

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