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RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/2/2014 2:08:26 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

lol -- that's exactly what I pointed out a couple posts earlier, Einstein:

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4709104

See?



Then stop claiming it's not out of context and claiming sentences stand alone outside the paragraph in which they are written.

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Profile   Post #: 361
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/2/2014 3:25:40 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Ah. So now "seems" and "is" are synonymous. Interesting.

So, since it *seems* you're a moron, that must just be fact?

You're as ridiculous as the creationists. You even repeat the concession/qualification point of the sentence, and you *still* don't understand it.

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Profile   Post #: 362
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/2/2014 4:38:32 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Ah. So now "seems" and "is" are synonymous. Interesting.

So, since it *seems* you're a moron, that must just be fact?

You're as ridiculous as the creationists. You even repeat the concession/qualification point of the sentence, and you *still* don't understand it.


I understand it fine. That's why you arguing about it is annoying.

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Profile   Post #: 363
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/2/2014 4:41:25 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

See? ...taken out of context it appears he is saying his own theory is wrong.

No, it doesn't. It's English. See?

K.


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RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/2/2014 5:16:51 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

See? ...taken out of context it appears he is saying his own theory is wrong.

No, it doesn't. It's English. See?

K.




As before, I'm not concerned with the matters of grammar or sentence structure. However, having done a quick Google, it does seem that this is one that's used allegedly by Creationists. Apparently, they've taken the first sentence and ignored the rest of the paragraph, the better to make it look like Darwin had doubts and had conceded something to them.

(I say 'allegedly' because I've no idea how things are your side of the pond. Creationists are rare over here and the few that exist wouldn't be noticed.)



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RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/2/2014 5:21:20 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		So, some Creationists apparently are misusing the English language to invent a meaning for the sentence that isn't there. The actual sentence though does not need any additional context to see the author is taking a pro-evolution stance.

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RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/2/2014 5:23:37 PM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		He's setting it up to knock it down, Raiikun. Standard device, especially in Darwin's day.

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RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/2/2014 5:32:21 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		Yep, and the sentence itself makes it quite obvious IMO that's what Darwin is doing.

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Profile   Post #: 368
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/2/2014 5:40:32 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

Yep, and the sentence itself makes it quite obvious IMO that's what Darwin is doing.


It might not, these days. People were willing to listen to more words, back then - especially in the sorts of places and media in which Darwin spoke and wrote . But in this soundbite age - the age of one-sentence car stickers and where I know people have the concentration span of gnats ... put it this way, I wouldn't phrase that sentence the way Darwin did.

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RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/2/2014 5:54:56 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

As before, I'm not concerned with the matters of grammar or sentence structure. However, having done a quick Google, it does seem that this is one that's used allegedly by Creationists

That may be, but that isn't the claim being challenged.

The claim was...
    If you just take this first sentence it sure sounds like Darwin doesn't believe in evolution
In fact it neither says that, nor "sounds" like it.

Using it to further such an end is a whole other matter.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/2/2014 6:09:29 PM >

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RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/2/2014 6:22:39 PM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		It could do, K. It's pretty subjective.

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RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/2/2014 7:16:32 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		It's not subjective at all.

It "seems." As in "appears, but hang on folks, that's not actually so." Paradox. Irony.

It means what it says. In and out of context. In fact, the sentence clearly indicates there's more to come -- the qualification.

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Profile   Post #: 372
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/2/2014 7:36:22 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		Not if the sentence is taken out and used on its own, MM. It *is* subjective.

Imagine this in a car's rear window:

"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. Charles Darwin"

Now you know what that says, I know what that says, and I'm sure that you, and I, and K, and most people reading this, know enough about Darwin to guess that this line has been yanked out to suggest something about Darwin's 'private beliefs', or some such. But a lot of people a) aren't very knowledgeable and b) would just love to believe that Darwin himself quietly believed there was a great big hole in his theory.

That's how it works. Isn't it? We're not talking about the objective and precise meaning of a sentence here. That doesn't matter.

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Profile   Post #: 373
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/2/2014 7:52:18 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		What you're talking about isn't the meaning of the sentence per se, but rather people's reading comprehension.

If you use comprehension misunderstanding to say sentences are therefore subjective, then all of language is pointless.

The sentence is clear. In the case of the Creationists, they aren't trying to understand it, but rather to reach for some justification for their unscientific views, and so deliberately misread it. But it's still both a clear sentence and a clear rhetorical device.

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Profile   Post #: 374
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/2/2014 8:05:36 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

We're not talking about the objective and precise meaning of a sentence here. That doesn't matter.

Since when does what people actually say not matter?

K.

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Profile   Post #: 375
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/3/2014 12:13:13 AM   
crazyml


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Status: offline 		I think you're taking this sentence out of context, and applying the wrong meaning to it.

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RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/3/2014 3:22:34 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

We're not talking about the objective and precise meaning of a sentence here. That doesn't matter.

Since when does what people actually say not matter?

K.



Perhaps I should have said it doesn't matter *when it comes to propagandising*, K. I apologise for not having made that clear in the first instance.

In general, it doesn't matter when one is deliberately bullshitting for some reason or another. For example: when a certain group, let's say creationists, want to reaffirm to themselves that their belief is correct. In the current example, that of Darwin, the ploy is to suggest that Darwin himself knew that he was BSing about his theory of evolution.


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RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/3/2014 3:28:50 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

I think you're taking this sentence out of context, and applying the wrong meaning to it.




Sweet J. This merry go round never stops turning!

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Profile   Post #: 378
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/3/2014 11:25:34 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

We're not talking about the objective and precise meaning of a sentence here. That doesn't matter.

Since when does what people actually say not matter?

Perhaps I should have said it doesn't matter *when it comes to propagandising*, K. I apologise for not having made that clear in the first instance.

In general, it doesn't matter when one is deliberately bullshitting for some reason or another. For example: when a certain group, let's say creationists, want to reaffirm to themselves that their belief is correct. In the current example, that of Darwin, the ploy is to suggest that Darwin himself knew that he was BSing about his theory of evolution.

Odd, that sounds familiar for some reason.

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4709212

K.

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Profile   Post #: 379
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/3/2014 12:46:55 PM   
PeonForHer


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Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		Yes, back to the beginning again. Choose your horses, kiddies, we'll start the music, and start the ride all over!

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Profile   Post #: 380
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