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RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into ... - 2/27/2014 8:31:16 AM

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But consent can be withdrawn, now should she withdraw her consent and he ignores it, I believe that will cross the line to abuse.

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RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into ... - 2/27/2014 9:11:14 AM

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Of course it's abuse if he ignores her refusal of consent.

But there is literally no indication or suggestion of him doing that whatsoever. She's specifically stated, several times, now that this is a consensual relationship.
The implication that this guy should be charged with abuse if and when she decides she no longer wants to consent to future acts is unbelievable to me. If we as a community to do not value consent enough to expect any submissive who gives it to actually stick by it until she changes her mind about future events than any Dominant, but especially male Dominants, who does anything to any sub, under any circumstances, with any level of consent, is putting himself in danger.

Hell, the mere act of copulation becomes dangerous for men if we support women after the fact changing their mind about the consent already given.

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RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into ... - 2/27/2014 9:18:57 AM

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Ish, I'm not sure what you're saying above because your first sentence seems to contradicts your fourth.

Perhaps she has currently consented that he may physically discipline her for questioning him. However, if she tells him that she no longer consents to this, and he does it anyway, wouldn't you see it as abuse?

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into ... - 2/27/2014 9:25:38 AM

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I think it's a language thing, as far as I remember Ish is also not a native speaker, and heaven knows I sometimes scramble my grammar more than my eggs, I can't talk for her, but I believe what she was trying to say was:

You can't withdraw consent retrospectively, but if she withdraws her consent the husband has to respect it from that moment on.

Did I get that right? If so, then I agree.

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RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into ... - 2/27/2014 10:01:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

Of course it's abuse if he ignores her refusal of consent.

But there is literally no indication or suggestion of him doing that whatsoever. She's specifically stated, several times, now that this is a consensual relationship.
The implication that this guy should be charged with abuse if and when she decides she no longer wants to consent to future acts is unbelievable to me. If we as a community to do not value consent enough to expect any submissive who gives it to actually stick by it until she changes her mind about future events than any Dominant, but especially male Dominants, who does anything to any sub, under any circumstances, with any level of consent, is putting himself in danger.

Hell, the mere act of copulation becomes dangerous for men if we support women after the fact changing their mind about the consent already given.

Ish, I think you missed a bit that LL said when replying -

quote:

To the OP: Like several others said before me, you need to tell "masterhusband" that the two of you need to have a serious discussion, where all pretense of roles other than husband and wife are gone. Let him know that if he refuses to do this, that you withdraw all consent to M/s and anything, ANYTHING he does from that point forward will be legally unconsented to abuse and he will face criminal charges for it. Mean it when you say it, and follow through if he does anything.

[hi-lighting mine]

As a few of us said - she has to let him know that if he won't listen, consent is withdrawn.
And as such, if consent is withdrawn, it becomes abuse if he continues his behaviour.

You appear to have skipped the first part and jumped on the bit about future acts being met with legal retribution.

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into ... - 2/27/2014 10:15:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I think it's a language thing, as far as I remember Ish is also not a native speaker, and heaven knows I sometimes scramble my grammar more than my eggs, I can't talk for her, but I believe what she was trying to say was:

You can't withdraw consent retroactively, but if she withdraws her consent the husband has to respect it from that moment on.

Did I get that right? If so, then I agree.

Tweaked the word in red.

Yes, I agree that if she withdraws her consent now, the abuse would apply to him slapping her in the future, not in the past.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into ... - 2/27/2014 10:36:18 AM

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Thank you

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RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into ... - 2/27/2014 10:48:19 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I think it's a language thing, as far as I remember Ish is also not a native speaker, and heaven knows I sometimes scramble my grammar more than my eggs, I can't talk for her, but I believe what she was trying to say was:

You can't withdraw consent retroactively, but if she withdraws her consent the husband has to respect it from that moment on.

Did I get that right? If so, then I agree.

Tweaked the word in red.

Yes, I agree that if she withdraws her consent now, the abuse would apply to him slapping her in the future, not in the past.

Yup, that. There isn't any abuse until she withdraws consent AND he then afterwards does non-consensual stuff to her.

The idea that she could suddenly decide "today I don't like the stuff I consented to yesterday anymore, so time to have him removed from the house and charged with abuse" is scary to me. Sure if she tells him today that she no longer consents to wearing a shock collar, him putting one on her and zapping her with it tomorrow is abuse. But the fact that he had it on her yesterday is not grounds to have the man removed from his house and have him charged with lord knows what bullshit.

I find it really troubling that so many people on this thread have called this an abusive relationship, just because laura consents to taking risks.
Yes, holding her pee can cause all sorts of consequences (and it's important she's aware of that fact). Yes, shock collars carry danger with them. Yes, somebody in a relationship structure that's build on a mutual partnership should be able to bring up grievances without fear of retribution, while she entered a relationship under the premise that she would be forfeiting that right.

But... she has ACTIVELY and continuously consented to all of those things. She wants them, and has said so... yet people are still crying 'abuser'.

Are we now no longer recognizing a person's ability to consent to risky and harmful behavior? My husband uses a cattle prod on me, and I'm prohibited from discussing certain topics with him... am being abused? Should I be removing him from the house? How about the fact that he takes me snowboarding and thus risks all sorts of bodily injuries? Should I call the cops over that? If I decide that I no longer want to go snowboarding in the further, should I have him removed from the house right now, just in case he doesn't adhere to my refusal of consent?

I think it's a dangerous line to cross for us as a community to advise somebody who has expressed that they consent that they are being abused, just because you don't approve of and/or don't understand the activities that they engage in.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 2/27/2014 11:01:38 AM >

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
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RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into ... - 2/27/2014 11:00:16 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

I'm at a loss as to how this came down to you as prejudice and belittling.

Here are some of the more blatant quotes that I see displaying this theme.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

", he thinks he's some fantasy overlord out of a 3rd rate SciFi book..."

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

"Because of the gor aspect, I didn't comment on what I see as abusive, immature behavior. Sorry, but it seems to go part and parcel with the fantasy land ideals of gor. "

"The problem is that he seems to caught up in his fantasy world to discuss the issue."

"I notice there is none of the third person speak. Wonder why we got so lucky."

Not to mention FieryOpal's comments which I believe have been adequately addressed by Ishtar.

I see there being an air condescension about things Gorean displayed in this thread, but I'd also like to acknowledge that I can see there are a lot of good intentions regarding keeping it real, as well as possible safety and consent issues, though they are concerns I don't share in this instance.

Thank you Ishtar for your time in contributing. Good posting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

I find it really troubling that so many people on this thread have called this an abusive relationship, just because laura consents to taking risks.

Your not the only one.

I won't be getting into a debate about the finer points of founded and unfounded attitudes surrounding things Gorean.
I would how ever like to thank leashedlaura for a very interesting thread. I wish you all the best with your journey.

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 2/27/2014 11:13:12 AM >

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RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into ... - 2/27/2014 11:01:20 AM

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Well, I don't know what you agreed with your husband in your relationship, but I go skiing with mine, but should he use a cattle prod on me, he might find that cattle prod inserted somewhere where he wouldn't like it, and served with divorce papers.

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RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into ... - 2/27/2014 11:09:20 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Well, I don't know what you agreed with your husband in your relationship, but I go skiing with mine, but should he use a cattle prod on me, he might find that cattle prod inserted somewhere where he wouldn't like it, and served with divorce papers.

He has across the board total consent for any wicked thing that he can come up with and can manage to make happen, until said consent is revoked. Although that consent -unlike with submissives/slaves- doesn't come with so much as an implied guarantee of obedience on my part. Basically, if he wants me to do something he better hope I want to do it or, or make me, and if he wants to do something to me he can... if he actually can, until I say otherwise.

Based on her statements laura's slavery is one of across the board consent until it's revoked. So I don't get why she's being told she's being abused by being subjected to stuff she's agreed to, unless people are trying to imply that she doesn't have the mental faculties, moral right, or age to decide to consent to harmful behavior.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 2/27/2014 11:10:25 AM >

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I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
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RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into ... - 2/27/2014 11:15:59 AM

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The whole urine thing is pretty dangerous and if he doesn't even want to listen to her, it shows a complete disregard for her health, which I find rather worrying. Also if he refuses to listen and she's unhappy, she can stay unhappy and suffer in silence or force him to listen by saying "THIS IS IMPORTANT - DON'T LISTEN AND I'LL LEAVE YOU!"

Any relationship is still a relationship, without communication it's not working. Even the most severe D/s or S/m relationships usually have "time out" where both review, a top who doesn't listen or pay attention to what's going on, not much of a top for me. My biggest concern is really the "You can't pee until I tell you!" I doubt she gave consent for future diaper play...

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RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into ... - 2/27/2014 11:29:23 AM

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As long as she understands that a future diaper is a risk she takes when consenting to holding her pee, she did give consent to the possibility of a future diaper.

Just like I consent to the possibility of a future wheelchair when I snowboard. Or the possibility of a heart attack when I play with the cattle prod. And the possibility of a bloodcloth causing a stroke when I engage in impact play. Or the possibility of suffocation when I use a gag. Or the possibility of nerve damage when I engage in bondage. Or the possibility of infection when I engage in puncture play.

Just because the risk she takes is different doesn't mean she doesn't consent to it, or to the potential future consequences. Especially seeing that she's already indicated that her and her husband mediate the potential for really high risk kidney failure by allowing her to pee before the appointed time if and when she's really uncomfortable.

I sometimes sleep up to 10 hours a night, instead of my usual 8-9. Does that extra hour of sleep puts me at risk for kidney failure too? Of course my body will wake me up to relieve myself if my bladder gets dangerously full. But so does her husband allow her to relieve herself when she gets really uncomfortable. Sure I bet pushing it near that point on a daily basis may not be the healthiest of things, but neither is eating McDonalds, and we don't see guys accused of being abusers because they consensually subject their sub missives/slaves to that.

Either we as a community deem it that adults of sound mental state are allowed to consent to behavior that carries potential health risks with it, or we as a community decide that people are only allowed to take certain health risks consensually before it's abuse. In that last case, everything we do is at risk for being judged abuse by other people, because everything we do carries with it potential future health risks. Even something as simple as having a sub kneel should be off the table then.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 2/27/2014 11:34:32 AM >

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I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into ... - 2/27/2014 11:31:32 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
Based on her statements laura's slavery is one of across the board consent until it's revoked. So I don't get why she's being told she's being abused by being subjected to stuff she's agreed to... <snip>

And you are also coming from the standpoint that she is in total agreement with it all.

If you re-read the opening post, she explains that she is trying to make a change and is physically punished for attempting to do so.
Add that to the harmful proceedure he puts her through every morning shrieks abuse.

She also seems unwilling (or mentally unable due to her conditioning) to stand up for herself in that regard.
That again, at least in my books, is abuse.
Sure, she originally consented to it; but now she is tired of it and wants a change.
Masterhusband is refusing her that option. That is blatant abuse.

I hear where you're coming from Ish, but I don't agree.
Everyone, regardless of an existing agreement, should have the opportunity to make a change if they are no longer happy with it.
If they are denied that opportinity, that's where it slips across the line from consensual permission to abuse.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
As long as she understands that a future diaper is a risk she takes when consenting to holding her pee, she did give consent to the possibility of a future diaper.

This assumes they are both aware of the consequenses of such dangerous play.
Not everyone is as aware - as we have witnessed on these boards a few times.

< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 2/27/2014 11:37:47 AM >

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into ... - 2/27/2014 11:37:00 AM

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If you snowboard you are taking a risk for yourself, if he uses a cattle prod on you, you risk heart attack and he risks prison, different ballgame.

She's trying to tell him, he's not listening, well then maybe he will listen to a lawyer, simple as that.

It's all jolly nice to be carried away in this "slavery" play, a bit naive but hey, because when it comes down to it and something goes wrong, it's the local court and the laws of your country you're dealing with, and I'm not aware of any country that recognizes legal slavery. So maybe we should all stay in the here and now instead of SciFi or "we play at".

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RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into ... - 2/27/2014 11:48:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

If you re-read the opening post, she explains that she is trying to make a change and is physically punished for attempting to do so.
Add that to the harmful proceedure he puts her through every morning shrieks abuse.

But she doesn't want to change the behavior you consider abusive (the holding the pee thing). In fact, she has literally said that that part of it doesn't bother her, and she still finds it kinda hot.

It's the forced yoga-like position training ritual that she wants to change... she specifically does NOT want to change the 'potentially abusive' behavior. In fact, she has specifically stated she doesn't consider the relationship abusive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

She also seems unwilling (or mentally unable due to her conditioning) to stand up for herself in that regard.

She doesn't at all seem unwilling (let alone unable) to stand up for herself to me, as she has multiple times brought up the topic. What she seems unwilling to do is step outside the confounds of her consent and state: 'I no longer consent to being a slave who has no right to bring up grievances'.
She has already, in the past, consented to a relationship in which she would be punished for complaining, or wanting her husband to change. That consent stand, as she's been thus far unwilling to revoke it.

Instead of revoking consent, what she's been trying to do is have it both ways: she's trying to both be a chattel slave and be a wife allowed to bring up grievances, even though the two are contradictory. She's trying to have her cake and eat it to, because what she wants is not to get out of a situation she considers abusive (considering she doesn't consider it abusive), what she wants is for him to do more stuff to her that turns her on, and less stuff that seems like mundane drudgery to her.

Sorry, if her wanting to spice up her sex life, and therefore her refusing to withdraw consent to something that makes her horny, is a sign she's being abuses, than 99% of housewives in America are abused.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Sure, she originally consented to it; but now she is tired of it and wants a change.
Masterhusband is refusing her that option. That is blatant abuse.

If that's the case, she needs to actually withdraw consent, instead of merely nagging him for change within the confounds of her consent to not be allowed to nag for change.
Sorry, but her husband ain't a mindreader. If she consents to not being allowed to complain, with added consent to being punished for complaining, then her starting to complain will not register to him as a desire for change, it will register as a desire for punishment. He is doing exactly what they agreed he would do, and what she consented to him doing: he's punishing her for complaining.

If instead of complaining and provoking punishment she wants to no longer consent, that's of course her option, but if that's the case she needs to actually do that.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into ... - 2/27/2014 11:53:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

She's trying to tell him, he's not listening, well then maybe he will listen to a lawyer, simple as that.

There is no sign of that at all.

They agreed that she would be a slave, and that with that came the understanding that she would be punished for complaining.

She consented to that.

Now she's complaining.

So he's doing what they agreed to: punishing her. (He's probably even worried that if he doesn't, she'll see him as weak and respect him less.)

If she wants to actually tell him that she no longer consents to position training, and no longer consents to not being allowed to being punished for complaining, she needs to say 'I no longer consent to positions training/punishment.'

Within the agreed terms of their relationship, her complaining specifically does not mean she's revoking consent. Instead it's their agreed upon code for 'punish me'.

Until that day she refuses consent, she is not trying to tell him to stop what he's doing, and he is not ignoring her request. What she's doing is playing by the rules of their agreed upon game, and begging for punishment, and what he's doing is playing by the rules of their agreed upon game, and providing her with the punishment she asked for.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 2/27/2014 12:01:54 PM >

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into ... - 2/27/2014 12:00:30 PM

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Gawd, I'm glad I'm just your lucky go happy sadist, who's happily torturing masochists, with clear communications and without the need for cloak and dagger games. The talking about somebody in the 3rd person alone would make me wish to hurt somebody and not in a good kinky way...

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(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into ... - 2/27/2014 12:01:26 PM

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The problem is Ish, it doesn't matter which part of the relationship she wants changed - she wants a change. Period.
The fact that her Masterhusband is refusing to even listen to her is just plain abuse.

You seem to be taking the specific stance of a Gorean slave; ie, consented to all regardless, including the future.
What we are saying is that Gor is fantasy and what she is asking for is within reality and is being refused.
That is why we consider it abuse.

She is asking. He is refusing to listen, even to the point of physically punishing her.
Dynamic or fantasy aside, that is abuse.
The fact that she seems unable to make herself heard, for whatever reason, points to abuse.
Pure and simple.

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into ... - 2/27/2014 12:09:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

The problem is Ish, it doesn't matter which part of the relationship she wants changed - she wants a change. Period.
The fact that her Masterhusband is refusing to even listen to her is just plain abuse.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

In my opinion, she has not said she wants change. Because both of them agreed that her saying 'I want change' really means 'I want to be punished'.

It's just like a safeword means 'stop' and me telling my husband 'please stop' means 'don't stop', and people into school girl play saying 'I'm a naughty girl' means 'spank me' and so on.

They agreed that her saying 'I don't want to do this' = 'please punish me'. So if she now REALLY doesn't want to do something, she needs to say something other than 'I don't want to do this' because he -like a good Master playing by the agreed upon rules- will take her saying 'I don't want to do this' as 'please punish me' every time.

He's not a mindreader, how is he supposed to know that THIS time 'I don't want to do this' really means 'I no longer consent' when all the times in the past it meant ' please punish me'?

BTW: considering that her main complaint is that he doesn't do enough stuff with her anymore that makes her horny, I consider it very likely that she is deliberately provoking him to be the 'cold callous ruthless Master' who beats her for daring to step out of line and question his authority. Specifically because provoking him to react like that reaffirms the 'slavey part' of the relationships that makes her horny, whereas the routine and rituals they have no longer do. If that's the case -and I'm not stating that it is for sure- then this thread was intended to have us all tell her how awful he is, because that would only make him more of the 'evil Master' and it would get her clit even harder...

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 2/27/2014 12:10:23 PM >

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

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