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Bergdahl - 6/1/2014 11:35:07 AM

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Here it is in a nutshell:

0bama0, in total disobedience of the law, in complete defiance of decades of strategy requiring that we not negotiate with terrorists, has traded 5 terrorist leaders for our lone defector in the Afghan war. His father Bob (who recently deleted a tweet reading" I am still working to free all Guantanamo prisoners. God will repay for the death of every Afghan child, ameen"), speaking at the press conference at which 0bama0 announced his treason, quoted the Koran in Arabic: “Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim” —which means “In the name of Allah, most Gracious, most Compassionate.”

Only a fool can doubt that the enemy is not just inside the wire but inside the White House.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

RE: Bergdahl - 6/1/2014 11:39:03 AM

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

You're an idiot, Truckinslave.

I was glad to see our soldier is free, and on his way home, even if we did have to make a shitty deal to get him out.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to truckinslave)

RE: Bergdahl - 6/1/2014 11:44:08 AM

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Here it is in a nutshell:

in total disobedience of the law, in complete defiance of decades of strategy requiring that we not negotiate with terrorists, has traded 5 terrorist leaders

Not even close:

In 1985, while Iran and Iraq were at war, Iran made a secret request to buy weapons from the United States. McFarlane sought Reagan's approval, in spite of the embargo against selling arms to Iran. McFarlane explained that the sale of arms would not only improve U.S. relations with Iran, but might in turn lead to improved relations with Lebanon, increasing U.S. influence in the troubled Middle East. Reagan was driven by a different obsession. He had become frustrated at his inability to secure the release of the seven American hostages being held by Iranian terrorists in Lebanon. As president, Reagan felt that "he had the duty to bring those Americans home," and while shipping arms to Iran violated the embargo, dealing with terrorists violated Reagan's campaign promise never to do so.

The arms-for-hostages proposal divided the administration. Longtime policy adversaries Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger and Secretary of State George Shultz opposed the deal, but Reagan, McFarlane and CIA director William Casey supported it. With the backing of the president, the plan progressed. By the time the sales were discovered, more than 1,500 missiles had been shipped to Iran. Three hostages had been released, only to be replaced with three more, in what Secretary of State George Shultz called "a hostage bazaar."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/general-article/reagan-iran/

(in reply to truckinslave)

RE: Bergdahl - 6/1/2014 11:44:20 AM

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Joined: 2/16/2014
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@TheHeretic: Will you really feel that way when more American soliders in harm's way -- and possibly American citizens -- are kidnapped, tortured and held for the ransom of releasing more terrorists? Logic dictates that releasing high-value Taliban/Al Queda captives means we have repudiated our policy of not negotiating with terrorists. The terrorists will react logically. They will do it again and again and again.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

RE: Bergdahl - 6/1/2014 11:47:26 AM

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Joined: 6/16/2004
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And they have learned to do that because we traded for a defector

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to subrosaDom)

RE: Bergdahl - 6/1/2014 11:48:50 AM

Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
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Reagan fucked up.
That doesn't excuse this latest perfidy.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: Bergdahl - 6/1/2014 11:50:42 AM

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

The argument against negotiating with terrorists is simple: Democracies must never give in to violence, and terrorists must never be rewarded for using it. Negotiations give legitimacy to terrorists and their methods and undermine actors who have pursued political change through peaceful means. Talks can destabilize the negotiating governments' political systems, undercut international efforts to outlaw terrorism, and set a dangerous precedent.

Yet in practice, democratic governments often negotiate with terrorists.
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/62276/peter-r-neumann/negotiating-with-terrorists

(in reply to subrosaDom)

RE: Bergdahl - 6/1/2014 11:51:19 AM

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Joined: 6/16/2004
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Bergdahl deserted/vanished (no shots fired, just "wandered off the base") after writing that he was ashamed to be an American.
His father quotes the Koran.

No little red flags there to you.
Ooooookay then, moving on.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

RE: Bergdahl - 6/1/2014 11:53:15 AM

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Reagan fucked up.
That doesn't excuse this latest perfidy.

Your claim was "in complete defiance of decades of strategy requiring that we not negotiate with terrorists"

You're wrong.

(in reply to truckinslave)

RE: Bergdahl - 6/1/2014 11:53:33 AM

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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Prisoner exchanges have a very long history in warfare. I'm no fan of this administration, but I'm not going to attack this.

Hell, the way things are going, this might be THE great achievement of President Obama's foreign policy.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to truckinslave)

RE: Bergdahl - 6/1/2014 12:01:15 PM

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Joined: 6/16/2004
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A moderately interesting article for those unable to see the world clearly, but even by Mr Neumann's... er... thinking, this was a fool's deal.

He stresses that the terrorists with whom one negotiates should have a low propensity to violence ("policymakers should examine their thinking on the utility of violence") and be able to control their members (what he calls its " level of internal cohesion")

Not only is negotiating with terrorists usually a supremely bad idea, the Taliban are, per your article, very poor terrorists with whom to do so.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: Bergdahl - 6/1/2014 12:02:48 PM

Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline

No.
That has been the official strategy for decades.
That Reagan violated it does change the fact that non-negotiation was the official strategy.
Ask Blackjack Pershing.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: Bergdahl - 6/1/2014 12:04:13 PM

Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Hell, the way things are going, this might be THE great achievement of President Obama's foreign policy.

You are no doubt familiar with the phrase "damnation by faint praise"?

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

RE: Bergdahl - 6/1/2014 12:05:02 PM

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

Lest you (accidentally or deliberately, doesn't matter) misunderstand, I'm not suggesting that negotiating with terrorists is a go-to strategy.

I'm simply pointing out that, despite your rant, it does indeed have a history, including in the US.

But I'll add that, at some point, unless you want endless war (and there are those who do), there will have to be negotiations.

As Colin Powell put it, "Today's terrorist is tomorrow's Prime Minister."

Egypt and Israel followed this path with Arafat. South Africa followed it with Mandela.

It's the reality of the world, and long has been, ever since Algerians learned that for the underdog, it's an effective tactic to address concerns ignored by the French.

Their lack of attention enshrined terrorism as a necessary tactic for these groups.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/1/2014 12:08:02 PM >

(in reply to truckinslave)

RE: Bergdahl - 6/1/2014 12:08:02 PM

Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline

quote:

unless you want endless war (and there are those who do)

There are those who want total victory, and are willing to wage war until it is achieved.
The Taliban, for example.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: Bergdahl - 6/1/2014 12:08:52 PM

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

And some of the not so bright Americans.

(in reply to truckinslave)

RE: Bergdahl - 6/1/2014 12:10:24 PM

Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline

The Algerians, the South Africans, Arafat- all of them had rather modest goals when compared to those of the Islamists.

Hitler had modest goals compared to them.....

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: Bergdahl - 6/1/2014 12:11:34 PM

Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline

Perhaps. I don't know all Americans.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: Bergdahl - 6/1/2014 12:11:59 PM

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

Again, that just puts you in the category of wanting nothing but total victory and endless war. You and the Taliban are spiritual brothers in this regard.

It also assumes everyone in the Taliban is that myopic. If that were true, they wouldn't be doing as well as they have.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/1/2014 12:13:09 PM >

(in reply to truckinslave)

RE: Bergdahl - 6/1/2014 12:13:33 PM

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Perhaps. I don't know all Americans.

Start with the neo-cons.

(in reply to truckinslave)

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