RE: How should the USA Fund its highway system?

RE: How should the USA Fund its highway system? (Full Version)

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DesideriScuri -> RE: How should the USA Fund its highway system? (7/22/2014 1:42:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SubtleMentor The irony of the situation that the typical American desire to get something for nothing (roads in this case) is destroying the thing they want most. Another example of this is energy infrastructure. America's coal and nuclear fleet are hopelessly out of date and need to be replaced. Ever since Reagan promised America everything is cheap and easy the country has abandoned investment and gone on a spending spree. Now we have a broken highway system, a broken energy infrastructure a bloated useless military, massive foreign debt from imported oil, rotten cities and a bunch of crybabies whining "But I don't WANT to pay for anything!" The latest feel good myth is fracking: Sorry guys, the fun will be over in five years. Is the Federal Government paying for the imported oil? If not, how is there massive foreign debt from it?

mnottertail -> RE: How should the USA Fund its highway system? (7/22/2014 1:44:21 PM)
Strategic reserve. Theres more, but I am not here to educate you on every subject.

DesideriScuri -> RE: How should the USA Fund its highway system? (7/22/2014 1:55:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri How much of the ailing roadways are under the authority of the Federal government? Has the money from the gas taxes we've collected over the years actually gone to pay for highway upkeep over the years? Outside of Federal roads, States and localities should pay for their own repair. If the Federal road repair budget isn't going solely to repair of Federal roads - that is, if there is money disbursed to States for non-Federal road repair - that practice should be curtailed. If Minnesota's non-Federal roads need taking care of, why should people living in FLA give a fuck (or have their dollars spent outside FLA)? The road network is at this point an interdependent network. maintaining the entire thing is good for the entire economy. It does no good if a truck gets a load of watermelons from Florida to Minnesota if it can't get to the depot because the bridge to the depot has failed. Almost all freight in this country is eventually moved by truck along some part of its life and while a lot of that is depot to depot travel along major highways eventually it does mean local delivery along city and country roads which do need to be maintained as well. I don't disagree, but who should be doing the maintenance? Should the Feds be maintaining roads below the Federal level? I don't think they should. If the FLA watermelon people can't get their melons to the depot in MN, there is likely a different place they can unload them, I'd bet. It behooves MN to keep their infrastructure up and running in this example, than it does the Federal Government. quote: quote: Lucas County (Ohio) was trying to raise money for the Toledo Zoo. The Zoo wanted to expand and blah, blah, blah. The County Commissioners actually looked into forcing bordering Ohio Counties (Fulton, Ottawa, and Wood) to pass County levies to support the Toledo Zoo, on the basis that the Toledo Zoo attracted people from all over, increasing revenues in those Counties as well as Lucas County. Toledo does have a very well thought of zoo but I have to wonder what its economic impact is on the surrounding counties. Did they offer up any evidence of hotel stays or anything to justify that? Of course not. Toledo/Lucas Co. are run almost completely by Democrats, and have been for the last 23 years (aka as long as I've lived here; can't comment on leadership prior to that). They don't need to offer proof. It's assumed accurate and accepted without proof. But, if it were true, there would also be merit to charge some sort of fee on those same counties (and let's not forget the MI counties that border Lucas Co.) for upkeep of the Toledo Mudhens, and the Huntington Center where the Toledo Walleye hockey team plays. It would also mean Lucas County should pay for the benefits it gains from the Casino in Rossford (Wood County), and the National Tractor Pulling Championships in Bowling Green, Ohio (also Wood County).

DomKen -> RE: How should the USA Fund its highway system? (7/22/2014 2:27:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri How much of the ailing roadways are under the authority of the Federal government? Has the money from the gas taxes we've collected over the years actually gone to pay for highway upkeep over the years? Outside of Federal roads, States and localities should pay for their own repair. If the Federal road repair budget isn't going solely to repair of Federal roads - that is, if there is money disbursed to States for non-Federal road repair - that practice should be curtailed. If Minnesota's non-Federal roads need taking care of, why should people living in FLA give a fuck (or have their dollars spent outside FLA)? The road network is at this point an interdependent network. maintaining the entire thing is good for the entire economy. It does no good if a truck gets a load of watermelons from Florida to Minnesota if it can't get to the depot because the bridge to the depot has failed. Almost all freight in this country is eventually moved by truck along some part of its life and while a lot of that is depot to depot travel along major highways eventually it does mean local delivery along city and country roads which do need to be maintained as well. I don't disagree, but who should be doing the maintenance? Should the Feds be maintaining roads below the Federal level? I don't think they should. If the FLA watermelon people can't get their melons to the depot in MN, there is likely a different place they can unload them, I'd bet. It behooves MN to keep their infrastructure up and running in this example, than it does the Federal Government. Usually there isn't. That gas tax is collected on every gallon sold so some of it should go to the states for local road maintenance especially from diesel sales. That is how things have been done for decades and it worked pretty well until these nuts in the House got there and can't pass a simple transpo bill. I'll leave you to the gratuitous Democrat bashing.

eulero83 -> RE: How should the USA Fund its highway system? (7/22/2014 2:58:43 PM)
FR I just realized the tax is 18.4 cents per gallon and not liter... [sm=gaah.gif]... anyway in many countries a share of the highway costs are covered by tolls.

DesideriScuri -> RE: How should the USA Fund its highway system? (7/22/2014 3:49:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri How much of the ailing roadways are under the authority of the Federal government? Has the money from the gas taxes we've collected over the years actually gone to pay for highway upkeep over the years? Outside of Federal roads, States and localities should pay for their own repair. If the Federal road repair budget isn't going solely to repair of Federal roads - that is, if there is money disbursed to States for non-Federal road repair - that practice should be curtailed. If Minnesota's non-Federal roads need taking care of, why should people living in FLA give a fuck (or have their dollars spent outside FLA)? The road network is at this point an interdependent network. maintaining the entire thing is good for the entire economy. It does no good if a truck gets a load of watermelons from Florida to Minnesota if it can't get to the depot because the bridge to the depot has failed. Almost all freight in this country is eventually moved by truck along some part of its life and while a lot of that is depot to depot travel along major highways eventually it does mean local delivery along city and country roads which do need to be maintained as well. I don't disagree, but who should be doing the maintenance? Should the Feds be maintaining roads below the Federal level? I don't think they should. If the FLA watermelon people can't get their melons to the depot in MN, there is likely a different place they can unload them, I'd bet. It behooves MN to keep their infrastructure up and running in this example, than it does the Federal Government. Usually there isn't. That gas tax is collected on every gallon sold so some of it should go to the states for local road maintenance especially from diesel sales. That is how things have been done for decades and it worked pretty well until these nuts in the House got there and can't pass a simple transpo bill. I'll leave you to the gratuitous Democrat bashing. Whatever, Ken. You still don't get it. If we keep making up the shortfall with gas taxes, what happens when we can't tax fuel enough to pay for stuff? What happens when transportation trucks are the only thing still using gas in great quantity? They aren't the only ones using the roads. They aren't the only ones causing road damage. They may be putting the greatest strain on the roads, but, they are also paying a higher tax, aren't they? We are pushing ever higher gas fuel efficiency standards. That's not exactly a bad thing to desire, but look at what happens when you start getting buy-in. Revenues for roads drop, while costs don't drop. How ludicrous is it to use gasoline sales as a tax base with your right hand, while your left hand is trying to reduce the quantity of gas consumed?

blacksword404 -> RE: How should the USA Fund its highway system? (7/22/2014 3:50:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy Have you been following this? > President Obama on Tuesday pressed Congress to break a deadlock over a long-term transportation spending bill, arguing that Republicans were more interested in trying to “score points on cable TV” than in fixing the country’s roads and bridges. The debate is complicated by the structural design of the Highway Trust Fund, which is financed by gasoline taxes that are not indexed to inflation. Officials have struggled to find additional revenue sources to keep the same level of activity without the political risk of either raising taxes or even seeming to raise taxes. The gas tax has been stuck at 18.4 cents a gallon since 1993, and during those 21 years it has lost 39 percent of its value to inflation.< The upshot is that Republicans in Congress don't want to raise taxes to pay for the highways. So, without tax revenue, how do you fund the highway system? Here's the NYT view: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/16/opinion/16wed1.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region®ion=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region Here were letters to the editor http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/21/opinion/Who-Should-Pay-for-Our-Highways-Gas-Tax.html?mabReward=RI%3A6&action=click&pgtype=Homepage®ion=CColumn&module=Recommendation&src=rechp&WT.nav=RecEngine&_r=0 It makes no difference how it's funded. Funding isn't the problem. Them raiding the cookie jar is. Until that's done, it doesn't matter how much money ou give them.

DesideriScuri -> RE: How should the USA Fund its highway system? (7/22/2014 3:58:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 FR I just realized the tax is 18.4 cents per gallon and not liter... [sm=gaah.gif]... anyway in many countries a share of the highway costs are covered by tolls. We have toll roads that are like that. There aren't very many, but there are some. Ohio has one. It connects Indiana and Pennsylvania, traveling through Southern Toledo, South of Sandusky, South of Cleveland, and through Youngstown (all in the northern third of Ohio). There is also a toll to cross the Cedar Point Causeway, but that's collected by Cedar Point, and I have no idea if Cedar Point maintains the causeway or not. It's rolled into your parking charge, so if you get a seasonal parking pass, you don't have to keep paying it.

DesideriScuri -> RE: How should the USA Fund its highway system? (7/22/2014 3:59:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blacksword404 It makes no difference how it's funded. Funding isn't the problem. Them raiding the cookie jar is. Until that's done, it doesn't matter how much money ou give them. Not sure if that's true or not. If you have proof that Federal Highway Trust funds aren't used for road repair, maintenance, and expansion, show it.

Politesub53 -> RE: How should the USA Fund its highway system? (7/22/2014 4:31:11 PM)
[image]http://ftop.ru/large/201212/43274.jpg[/image] Gentlemen, start your engines. [8D]

LookieNoNookie -> RE: How should the USA Fund its highway system? (7/22/2014 4:37:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy Have you been following this? > President Obama on Tuesday pressed Congress to break a deadlock over a long-term transportation spending bill, arguing that Republicans were more interested in trying to “score points on cable TV” than in fixing the country’s roads and bridges. The debate is complicated by the structural design of the Highway Trust Fund, which is financed by gasoline taxes that are not indexed to inflation. Officials have struggled to find additional revenue sources to keep the same level of activity without the political risk of either raising taxes or even seeming to raise taxes. The gas tax has been stuck at 18.4 cents a gallon since 1993, and during those 21 years it has lost 39 percent of its value to inflation.< The upshot is that Republicans in Congress don't want to raise taxes to pay for the highways. So, without tax revenue, how do you fund the highway system? Here's the NYT view: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/16/opinion/16wed1.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region®ion=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region Here were letters to the editor http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/21/opinion/Who-Should-Pay-for-Our-Highways-Gas-Tax.html?mabReward=RI%3A6&action=click&pgtype=Homepage®ion=CColumn&module=Recommendation&src=rechp&WT.nav=RecEngine&_r=0 It's lost far more than 39%. It's lost ANOTHER 50% due to efficiencies in vehicles and loss of distance driven. 20 years ago the average mileage driven was 16,000 miles. 10 years ago, 12,000. Today, the average driver (thanks to Amazon, among others) drives 9,000 miles a year (nearly 1/2 what it was 20 years previous). When you add it all up, taxes for road repairs and maint. are less than 1/3rd (in real dollars) what they were just 15 years ago. Yet costs have risen by 400%. But we have the same amount of roads. Getting older. If we tripled the gas tax, it still wouldn't be enough to pay the ongoing costs. Why is that? Because, among other things, we pay laborers 46 bucks an hour to broom loose gravel. That's because of a law called "Davis Bacon" instituted in the 30's. Intended to insure that "fair wages" were paid to all employees (during the Depression), in an attempt to create "cash flow" (buyers/people with money to buy "stuff"). Today, it no longer insures a "fair wage", it insures that unions can validate their wages...indeed....it now has an escalator in the legislation that insures that union wages are always a smidge below the federal mandates. (Imagine that). And so....we're paying twice, in some cases, 3 x's what competitive wages and costs would be if....there were no collars on wages. Which, with accounting allowances and other add ins causes a paving job to cost approx. 3 and 4 X's what it would cost if competition was the predominant factor in bids. Add in collusion and....you have a mile of roadway costing about 4+ X's what it would cost if the feds didn't enforce costs. Don't believe me? (I own a paving company). Guess what? You're being robbed, all in the name of equality. "Equality" in unions means "Fuck you".

DomKen -> RE: How should the USA Fund its highway system? (7/22/2014 4:37:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri How much of the ailing roadways are under the authority of the Federal government? Has the money from the gas taxes we've collected over the years actually gone to pay for highway upkeep over the years? Outside of Federal roads, States and localities should pay for their own repair. If the Federal road repair budget isn't going solely to repair of Federal roads - that is, if there is money disbursed to States for non-Federal road repair - that practice should be curtailed. If Minnesota's non-Federal roads need taking care of, why should people living in FLA give a fuck (or have their dollars spent outside FLA)? The road network is at this point an interdependent network. maintaining the entire thing is good for the entire economy. It does no good if a truck gets a load of watermelons from Florida to Minnesota if it can't get to the depot because the bridge to the depot has failed. Almost all freight in this country is eventually moved by truck along some part of its life and while a lot of that is depot to depot travel along major highways eventually it does mean local delivery along city and country roads which do need to be maintained as well. I don't disagree, but who should be doing the maintenance? Should the Feds be maintaining roads below the Federal level? I don't think they should. If the FLA watermelon people can't get their melons to the depot in MN, there is likely a different place they can unload them, I'd bet. It behooves MN to keep their infrastructure up and running in this example, than it does the Federal Government. Usually there isn't. That gas tax is collected on every gallon sold so some of it should go to the states for local road maintenance especially from diesel sales. That is how things have been done for decades and it worked pretty well until these nuts in the House got there and can't pass a simple transpo bill. I'll leave you to the gratuitous Democrat bashing. Whatever, Ken. You still don't get it. If we keep making up the shortfall with gas taxes, what happens when we can't tax fuel enough to pay for stuff? What happens when transportation trucks are the only thing still using gas in great quantity? They aren't the only ones using the roads. They aren't the only ones causing road damage. They may be putting the greatest strain on the roads, but, they are also paying a higher tax, aren't they? We are pushing ever higher gas fuel efficiency standards. That's not exactly a bad thing to desire, but look at what happens when you start getting buy-in. Revenues for roads drop, while costs don't drop. How ludicrous is it to use gasoline sales as a tax base with your right hand, while your left hand is trying to reduce the quantity of gas consumed? Yes, eventually as we push up fuel standards we'll have to find different sources for highway maintenance funds but for right now simply indexing the gas tax to inflation seems like a good idea.

deathtothepixies -> RE: How should the USA Fund its highway system? (7/22/2014 4:44:49 PM)
the roads aren't going to fix themselves, just pay some fucking tax you right wing morons. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Everything you want done costs money so either pay for it with taxes or shut the fuck up and live with the consequences

LookieNoNookie -> RE: How should the USA Fund its highway system? (7/22/2014 4:45:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies the roads aren't going to fix themselves, just pay some fucking tax you right wing morons. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Everything you want done costs money so either pay for it with taxes or shut the fuck up and live with the consequences Yep.

servantforuse -> RE: How should the USA Fund its highway system? (7/22/2014 5:45:13 PM)
subtlr mentor. A higher gas tax will only hurt the lower and middle class. There are no good jobs in cities for most of these folks. They have to drive a car to get to their jobs

DesideriScuri -> RE: How should the USA Fund its highway system? (7/22/2014 6:55:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri How much of the ailing roadways are under the authority of the Federal government? Has the money from the gas taxes we've collected over the years actually gone to pay for highway upkeep over the years? Outside of Federal roads, States and localities should pay for their own repair. If the Federal road repair budget isn't going solely to repair of Federal roads - that is, if there is money disbursed to States for non-Federal road repair - that practice should be curtailed. If Minnesota's non-Federal roads need taking care of, why should people living in FLA give a fuck (or have their dollars spent outside FLA)? The road network is at this point an interdependent network. maintaining the entire thing is good for the entire economy. It does no good if a truck gets a load of watermelons from Florida to Minnesota if it can't get to the depot because the bridge to the depot has failed. Almost all freight in this country is eventually moved by truck along some part of its life and while a lot of that is depot to depot travel along major highways eventually it does mean local delivery along city and country roads which do need to be maintained as well. I don't disagree, but who should be doing the maintenance? Should the Feds be maintaining roads below the Federal level? I don't think they should. If the FLA watermelon people can't get their melons to the depot in MN, there is likely a different place they can unload them, I'd bet. It behooves MN to keep their infrastructure up and running in this example, than it does the Federal Government. Usually there isn't. That gas tax is collected on every gallon sold so some of it should go to the states for local road maintenance especially from diesel sales. That is how things have been done for decades and it worked pretty well until these nuts in the House got there and can't pass a simple transpo bill. I'll leave you to the gratuitous Democrat bashing. Whatever, Ken. You still don't get it. If we keep making up the shortfall with gas taxes, what happens when we can't tax fuel enough to pay for stuff? What happens when transportation trucks are the only thing still using gas in great quantity? They aren't the only ones using the roads. They aren't the only ones causing road damage. They may be putting the greatest strain on the roads, but, they are also paying a higher tax, aren't they? We are pushing ever higher gas fuel efficiency standards. That's not exactly a bad thing to desire, but look at what happens when you start getting buy-in. Revenues for roads drop, while costs don't drop. How ludicrous is it to use gasoline sales as a tax base with your right hand, while your left hand is trying to reduce the quantity of gas consumed? Yes, eventually as we push up fuel standards we'll have to find different sources for highway maintenance funds but for right now simply indexing the gas tax to inflation seems like a good idea. I don't think it's "eventually," Ken. I think we're here. It's interesting that you're all for a consumption tax, though. I thought those were supposed to be regressive and hit the poor harder?

DesideriScuri -> RE: How should the USA Fund its highway system? (7/22/2014 6:59:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies the roads aren't going to fix themselves, just pay some fucking tax you right wing morons. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Everything you want done costs money so either pay for it with taxes or shut the fuck up and live with the consequences The problem is in how we tax to make it fair and to keep up with the times. That's the problem. Increasing the gas tax isn't going to be the long term solution others might think it is, even if it's indexed to inflation. Why not do the hard work and figure out a better way now? We might also want to look at if our previous gasoline tax dollars were put to good use or not. If not, we need to get some controls in place so they won't be wasted as much. Government will always find a way to use up tax dollars and require more and more, while work doesn't seem to ever get done on time or well.

MrRodgers -> RE: How should the USA Fund its highway system? (7/22/2014 8:35:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy The upshot is that Republicans in Congress don't want to raise taxes to pay for the highways. So, without tax revenue, how do you fund the highway system? sexy car wash on the highways verges Plus, that would create jobs . . . [image]http://ftop.ru/large/201212/43274.jpg[/image] .....but then we get traffic jams and wasted gas and just more fender-benders. I see this costing more although surely...my kinda carwash.

blacksword404 -> RE: How should the USA Fund its highway system? (7/22/2014 8:41:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: blacksword404 It makes no difference how it's funded. Funding isn't the problem. Them raiding the cookie jar is. Until that's done, it doesn't matter how much money ou give them. Not sure if that's true or not. If you have proof that Federal Highway Trust funds aren't used for road repair, maintenance, and expansion, show it. http://airwolf.lmtonline.com/news/archive/031205/pagea8.pdf Why is highway money being used on mass transit, bike path and horse trails instead of the roads that vehicles use? http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?a=Files.Serve&File_id=b7b23f66-2d60-4d5a-8bc5-8522c7e1a40e Look at the first part.

DesideriScuri -> RE: How should the USA Fund its highway system? (7/22/2014 8:56:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blacksword404 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: blacksword404 It makes no difference how it's funded. Funding isn't the problem. Them raiding the cookie jar is. Until that's done, it doesn't matter how much money ou give them. Not sure if that's true or not. If you have proof that Federal Highway Trust funds aren't used for road repair, maintenance, and expansion, show it. http://airwolf.lmtonline.com/news/archive/031205/pagea8.pdf Why is highway money being used on mass transit, bike path and horse trails instead of the roads that vehicles use? http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?a=Files.Serve&File_id=b7b23f66-2d60-4d5a-8bc5-8522c7e1a40e Look at the first part. That's my point. If it's not under the authority of the Federal government, why should we be spending that money? If we're spending Federal dollars on non-Federal transportation projects, we don't need to increase Federal gas taxes. The sad fact is that we do need to increase funding for transportation infrastructure. But, we need to increase the funding for the government level that is the authority for that infrastructure. If it's State-run, we need to raise State taxes. If it's a locally tended parcel, then local funding needs to be improved. I don't think I, as an Ohioan, should contribute to the funding of State or local transportation projects in areas other than where I live.

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