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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/13/2014 5:12:55 PM

kdsub

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I agree with you Peon... but the shooting of this child is not the reason for looting... it is an excuse to steal. There are honest sincere people demanding answers and by God they will get them.... But there is NO excuse for destroying your own peoples economy.

You and Cloud are the ones that can't seem to separate looting from legitimate protesting. One is criminal with no excuse...and the other is the right way to address grievances.

Butch

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/13/2014 5:20:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

You and Cloud are the ones that can't seem to separate looting from legitimate protesting. One is criminal with no excuse...and the other is the right way to address grievances.

I'm getting tired of repeating this, Butch: the moral argument about 'excusing' or 'not excusing' isn't relevant to me, because I see it as pointless. I have no interest in getting into it.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/13/2014 5:27:20 PM

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

I agree with you Peon... but the shooting of this child is not the reason for looting... it is an excuse to steal. There are honest sincere people demanding answers and by God they will get them.... But there is NO excuse for destroying your own peoples economy.

You and Cloud are the ones that can't seem to separate looting from legitimate protesting. One is criminal with no excuse...and the other is the right way to address grievances.

Butch

Why s it buch that when it is your possie with the torch in it's hand it is way kewel but when "they" do what your possie does somehow you want to be reasonable.

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/13/2014 7:56:48 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I agree with you Peon... but the shooting of this child is not the reason for looting... it is an excuse to steal. There are honest sincere people demanding answers and by God they will get them.... But there is NO excuse for destroying your own peoples economy.

You and Cloud are the ones that can't seem to separate looting from legitimate protesting. One is criminal with no excuse...and the other is the right way to address grievances.

Butch

Moral equivalence strikes again.

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/13/2014 9:05:38 PM

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What happened to Michael Brown was sad.
What is happening in Ferguson is sad.

I wish the protests had been conducted in a non-violent manner.
I just heard that manner of the protesters have stated, it is NOT just about Michael Brown, it is about what many of them have SEEN personally.

Let's get that point straight.
There are no winners here.

< Message edited by Marini -- 8/13/2014 9:12:21 PM >

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/13/2014 9:09:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I agree with you Peon... but the shooting of this child is not the reason for looting... it is an excuse to steal. There are honest sincere people demanding answers and by God they will get them.... But there is NO excuse for destroying your own peoples economy.

You and Cloud are the ones that can't seem to separate looting from legitimate protesting. One is criminal with no excuse...and the other is the right way to address grievances.

Butch

Why s it buch that when it is your possie with the torch in it's hand it is way kewel but when "they" do what your possie does somehow you want to be reasonable.

I'm not aware of any KKK members on this forum. There is an idiot submissive who posts that she believes in the Aryan Nation but that's in her profile, not on here. So it seems a bit of a stretch to invoke an organization that is pretty much a laughing stock today. How many KKK-authorized lynchings have occurred in the last 30 years? How many whites and Asians have died because Al Sharpton egged them on? A lot more.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/13/2014 9:16:51 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I agree with you Peon... but the shooting of this child is not the reason for looting... it is an excuse to steal. There are honest sincere people demanding answers and by God they will get them.... But there is NO excuse for destroying your own peoples economy.

You and Cloud are the ones that can't seem to separate looting from legitimate protesting. One is criminal with no excuse...and the other is the right way to address grievances.

Butch

Why s it buch that when it is your possie with the torch in it's hand it is way kewel but when "they" do what your possie does somehow you want to be reasonable.

I'm not aware of any KKK members on this forum. There is an idiot submissive who posts that she believes in the Aryan Nation but that's in her profile, not on here. So it seems a bit of a stretch to invoke an organization that is pretty much a laughing stock today. How many KKK-authorized lynchings have occurred in the last 30 years? How many whites and Asians have died because Al Sharpton egged them on? A lot more.

His inspiration has even lead to the death of at least one black man.
And we must not forget the Twana Brawley fraud he participated in.

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People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/14/2014 1:35:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

What happened to Michael Brown was sad.
What is happening in Ferguson is sad.

I wish the protests had been conducted in a non-violent manner.
I just heard that manner of the protesters have stated, it is NOT just about Michael Brown, it is about what many of them have SEEN personally.

Let's get that point straight.
There are no winners here.

Yes indeed. But there is a need to identify why people reacted with such anger. Riots do not happen for the fun of it, they are not merely cover for other crimes such as theft and looting, they are usually the result of long standing grievances being ignored or left resolved by the authorities.

People who feel they have a stake in the system don't riot. People who feel their voices are being heard do not resort to violence to make their points. The trigger that sparked the riot is not a cause but a consequence, best seen as the straw that broke the camel's back.

Unless people take a longer deeper view of civilian unrest, they are running the risk of more of the same in the future.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/14/2014 1:36:22 AM >

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/14/2014 1:56:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I agree with you Peon... but the shooting of this child is not the reason for looting... it is an excuse to steal. There are honest sincere people demanding answers and by God they will get them.... But there is NO excuse for destroying your own peoples economy.

You and Cloud are the ones that can't seem to separate looting from legitimate protesting. One is criminal with no excuse...and the other is the right way to address grievances.

Butch

Moral equivalence strikes again.

Crap. Read and at least try to understand, Bama.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/14/2014 2:10:49 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Yes indeed. But there is a need to identify why people reacted with such anger.

Forget all that lefty 'understanding' stuff, Tweak. Do you approve of this rioting, or not? That's the essential question here.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/14/2014 2:28:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Yes indeed. But there is a need to identify why people reacted with such anger.

Forget all that lefty 'understanding' stuff, Tweak. Do you approve of this rioting, or not? That's the essential question here.

If people are going to adopt that position Peon, it seems to me that the most pertinent questions they need to ask are:
'How soon do you want the riots to re-occur? Do you feel they should recur with increased intensity? What else can we do to guarantee their recurrence?

Alternatively they might like to discuss the merits of putting Valium and/or Prozac in the water supply, which would seem to be a more sophisticated, and almost certainly a more succesful riot prevention strategy than that suggested by the question in your post.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/14/2014 4:45:59 AM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I agree with you Peon... but the shooting of this child is not the reason for looting... it is an excuse to steal. There are honest sincere people demanding answers and by God they will get them.... But there is NO excuse for destroying your own peoples economy.

You and Cloud are the ones that can't seem to separate looting from legitimate protesting. One is criminal with no excuse...and the other is the right way to address grievances.

Butch

Moral equivalence strikes again.

Crap. Read and at least try to understand, Bama.

Lack of agreement does not equal lack of understanding.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/14/2014 5:22:53 AM

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There is a difference between riot and protest. I think rioting negates the purpose of the injustice period. You can be mad as hell just as well...with a protest and get across better than rioting. I understand the nature of rioting - but the whole reason MLK stepped in with peace walks because you get more with honey than with vinegar. He was trying to teach individuals that rioting does not give us answers- it allows you to blow of steam- yet the problem does not change. There was more change with nonviolence than violence.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/14/2014 5:39:15 AM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetAnise

There is a difference between riot and protest. I think rioting negates the purpose of the injustice period. You can be mad as hell just as well...with a protest and get across better than rioting. I understand the nature of rioting - but the whole reason MLK stepped in with peace walks because you get more with honey than with vinegar. He was trying to teach individuals that rioting does not give us answers- it allows you to blow of steam- yet the problem does not change. There was more change with nonviolence than violence.

I agree. Rioting can come from frustration. And with the unemployment rate among black youths being near 20%, maybe worse, there must be a lot of it.
However riots never make anything better. If you accept tweaks idea that it is the outgrowth of injustice rioting only justifies repression. If as many, including some residents of Ferguson believe, it is just an excuse for the lawless element to steal it needs to be condemned as such. In either they are doing a disservice to the very people they claim to be so concerned about.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to SweetAnise)

RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/14/2014 6:20:12 AM

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quote:

Lack of agreement does not equal lack of understanding.

Right, well show me what I've said that indicates moral equivalence and walk me through how you got to that conclusion then. This should be fun.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/14/2014 6:25:26 AM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Lack of agreement does not equal lack of understanding.

Right, well show me what I've said that indicates moral equivalence and walk me through how you got to that conclusion then. This should be fun.

Your insistence that there is no point in condemning the riots.
Sure it won't stop them but that doesn't mean they are not wrong.
You can say they are wrong.
I was talking more about cloud and tweak anyway.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/14/2014 6:59:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Lack of agreement does not equal lack of understanding.

Right, well show me what I've said that indicates moral equivalence and walk me through how you got to that conclusion then. This should be fun.

Your insistence that there is no point in condemning the riots.
Sure it won't stop them but that doesn't mean they are not wrong.
You can say they are wrong.
I was talking more about cloud and tweak anyway.

There is no practical point in condemning them because, as you say, it will not stop them to do so. It makes no sense to bang on about it when people should be working out how to stop them.

There's an iconic picture of one of the 1970s riots in London of a police inspector holding up a Pc who's just been hit in the face by a brick. Blood is pouring down the Pc's face. Do I think that it was wrong that the Pc should have taken a brick in the face? Yes. People turn into savages. I don't approve of people acting savagely. I'm not going to link to the picture here because the police inspector involved is my father.

Everyone here got tired of the finger-wagging politicans who'd fall over themselves to 'condemn' the rioters. We ended up thinking, 'So fucking what? What are you going to do stop them happening?' And so a number of major enquiries were launched. All sorts of strategies were changed as a result. We still have riots, but nowhere near so frequently as we did back then and nowhere near so savage.

In my humble opinion (because it's your country, and all) you need to get past the moral argument (which isn't one, anyway, because everyone's already arrived at their moral opinions) and get to the root of why riots happen, and start to deal with them. I mean, jeez, for one thing, I can't imagine the horrors if our rioters in the 1970s had had access to firearms.

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/14/2014 7:11:29 AM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Lack of agreement does not equal lack of understanding.

Right, well show me what I've said that indicates moral equivalence and walk me through how you got to that conclusion then. This should be fun.

Your insistence that there is no point in condemning the riots.
Sure it won't stop them but that doesn't mean they are not wrong.
You can say they are wrong.
I was talking more about cloud and tweak anyway.

There is no practical point in condemning them because, as you say, it will not stop them to do so. It makes no sense to bang on about it when people should be working out how to stop them.

There's an iconic picture of one of the 1970s riots in London of a police inspector holding up a Pc who's just been hit in the face by a brick. Blood is pouring down the Pc's face. Do I think that it was wrong that the Pc should have taken a brick in the face? Yes. People turn into savages. I don't approve of people acting savagely. I'm not going to link to the picture here because the police inspector involved is my father.

Everyone here got tired of the finger-wagging politicans who'd fall over themselves to 'condemn' the rioters. We ended up thinking, 'So fucking what? What are you going to do stop them happening?' And so a number of major enquiries were launched. All sorts of strategies were changed as a result. We still have riots, but nowhere near so frequently as we did back then and nowhere near so savage.

In my humble opinion (because it's your country, and all) you need to get past the moral argument (which isn't one, anyway, because everyone's already arrived at their moral opinions) and get to the root of why riots happen, and start to deal with them. I mean, jeez, for one thing, I can't imagine the horrors if our rioters in the 1970s had had access to firearms.

Ours did and it wasn't what you seem to think it would have been.
Your refusal to take a "moral position" is what I was referring to. You may not see that a moral equivalence, but no one practicing it does.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/14/2014 7:37:10 AM

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But fuck a bunch of morality asswipe. I am absolutely aghast at the hypocrisy of the right on this issue. Here is freedom of speech, and they are against it, when it doesn't coincide with their 'morality'. Only freedom of speech for nutsackers, is that it?

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RE: Rioting is the answer - 8/14/2014 7:49:20 AM

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Compare the police response in Ferguson to that in Bunkerville. Funny how if its a bunch of black guys breaking some laws they get the full police state treatment but when it is a bunch of white guys breaking the law they get kid gloves.

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