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RE: Racism and Islamophobia. - 10/16/2014 10:40:32 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
So your moderate muslims assimilated to suit your British culture. They have to give up some of their practices.

And so they should!!!

They chose to come here for a better life and freebie handouts.



Are Muslims more likely to be on the dole, then? I haven't seen the stats on that.

quote:


So.... when in Rome, yada yada yada... Why shouldn't they conform?


That line always puts me on edge. Nothing personal against your good self, FD, but the people who most bang about the ideal of people 'conforming to British culture' seem to assume certain 'essentials' about said culture to which I don't conform and see no reason why I should conform. (Christianity, monarchism, crap food, reading the Sun, etc, etc.)

In general I don't believe that everyone should like and do just what the majority like and do just because the majority *is* the majority. Hell, none of us would be using this site if that were the case. In fact we should all be campaigning to shut this site down and stop upsetting the straights.

I'm not a christian either!
I don't prescribe to monarchism, don't eat crap food, and don't read any snooze-paper let alone The Sun!

As for stats -
"To make sense of the numbers, it helps to break them down a little - to divide the net contribution to the public purse by the number of people in each group under study.

When we do that, we see that between 1995-2011, on average each EEA immigrant put about £6,000 more into the public purse than they took out.

Non-EEA immigrants each took out about £21,000 more than they put in during that period.

And this group is the biggest - non-EEA immigrants make up two thirds of the UK immigrant population. So both groups of immigrants - EEA and non-EEA - considered together, take out around £14,000 more than they put in, amounting to a deficit of around £95bn for the public purse between 1995-2011"

And interestingly -
"And we can see that clearly when we look at how much native Brits are each putting in and taking out of the public purse. On average, each native Briton took out roughly £11,000 more than they put in between 1995-2011".

So.... the net result is that the immigrants (including those from EEA regions who have a net input of £6,000) are taking out £3,000 more than a typical Brit.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25880373

I know it doesn't state specifically, but it is generally assumed that the majority of EEA immigrants would be the likes of the many migrant/seasonal workers and the non-EEA immigrants would be from Pakistan, India, Afghanistan etc.



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RE: Racism and Islamophobia. - 10/16/2014 10:49:27 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
There is a reason why restaurants are going Halal, despite being able to offer non-pork options to Muslims. Because, their religion forbids them to dine at any establishment that serves pork, even IF they just go there for chicken or beef.

Citation please??

I've heard this argument before and our local Muslims say there is nothing in the Qu'ran about it.
I think it's just a bunch of Muslims being awkward for the sake of it.


ETA: A business would only do that if they were located in a predominantly muslim area and it was more profitable to do so. It's pure fiscal business strategy (ie, more profits).

< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 10/16/2014 11:00:08 AM >

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RE: Racism and Islamophobia. - 10/16/2014 2:31:36 PM   
MariaB


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Status: offline 		A bigot, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, is an “obstinate and intolerant adherent of a creed or view”. I could go on but there's nothing I dislike more than pandering to the bigots.

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RE: Racism and Islamophobia. - 10/16/2014 3:52:57 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bowedB4Women

The muslims around the globe protesting against isis tells the story.

That's right I don't see any either.


None so blind as those that will not see, although I think your problem is not so much your eyesight but your ignorance.

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RE: Racism and Islamophobia. - 10/16/2014 3:58:41 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

Normal Muslims don’t take bits and pieces of their faith and fit it to suit. They don’t need to compromise, they can still be devout Muslims.

They do need to compromise. For example, if a Muslim insist on wearing a headgear, she may never be able to work as an air stewardess. She has to compromise.
If a Muslim insist that they cannot be around people who eat pork, multi-religious kids in school eating different things, they would have problems.
Fact of the matter, Maria, you live in the UK, your government does not entertain Muslims on their special religious practices like my country does. Your country would never allow them 4 wives for example, whereas mine allow them to practice it legally, specifically just for them. Would your country allow them to have their own legally recognised sharia court? No. My country allows them to have that. How about being given half day off work every single Friday to go to the Mosque, and getting paid anyway, while all other religious groups don't get this priviledge? Only specially for them! Seven Day Adventist Christians don't even get to come to work late because they gotta go to church every morning!

So your moderate muslims assimilated to suit your British culture. They have to give up some of their practices.



Dont you ever tire of being wrong, or stupid, or ignorant, or all three ? Start with the bollocks you quoted about headscarves worn by airline stewardesses.

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RE: Racism and Islamophobia. - 10/16/2014 6:19:12 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Citation please??

It's about the cutlery and plates that needs special prayer and washed in holy sand too. I can't be bothered to bring up citation, since this is what Muslims in Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia tells us and what they been practicing since before I was born.

quote:

ETA: A business would only do that if they were located in a predominantly muslim area and it was more profitable to do so. It's pure fiscal business strategy (ie, more profits).

But you don't get the point. If they do offer non-pork options, why do they have to remove pork from their menu? There are non-pork choices in every restaurant.
Because clearly enough number of muslims will boycott a place just because it dares serve pork. So majority of them believe they cannot enter an establishment that serves pork as it's against their religion.


< Message edited by Greta75 -- 10/16/2014 6:23:22 PM >

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RE: Racism and Islamophobia. - 10/16/2014 6:31:44 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Dont you ever tire of being wrong, or stupid, or ignorant, or all three ? Start with the bollocks you quoted about headscarves worn by airline stewardesses.

I hope you move into a Muslim country for a year and experience really living among sharia law, and then come back and tell me if I'm still wrong, stupid or ignorant. Oh and if you have a wife or a daughter, please make sure you bring them there too, and see how you can keep them protected from committing crimes. If Islam is so wonderful, you should have no problem at all living in a sharia law runned country. People keep imagining that this sharia law is only practiced by extremist Muslims, when where does sharia law come from? Islam itself is a political system. Just that obviously living in a non-Muslim country, the only stupid country in the world that will allow them to legally have their own sharia court to regulate their own people is mine. No western countries will entertain it as it will be incompatible with their civil laws. But to fair to mine, the muslims were the native in my country, chinese did what the British did to Native Americans in Singapore, except, we protect them better, and try to allow them to continue to practice all the stuffs they usually practice. So 4 wives, their own sharia court still continues. And free education for all of them, sponsored by all non-muslims tax paying people.

You think covering up for Muslims is just headscarf? Are you just thinking of that pretty headpiece Pakistani Muslims wear?

The actual verse specifically says, "And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss."

This the reason why they wear ninja suits, and also baggy ones. The only part necessary not to cover up is their eyes, as they need to see where they are going. But even Afghanistan created over head scarfs that covers whole face with mesh that they can see out but people can't see in. Most airline uniform are shapely and interestingly, even Malaysian airline stewardess aren't allowed to wear any head coverings.

Most Muslim not fully covering up are breaking the Islamic law. Not that I care they are breaking it, I think this law should be broken.

You are blatantly lying if you claim all airlines allows this for their employees. If British Airways allow it, I've never seen it.


< Message edited by Greta75 -- 10/16/2014 7:02:22 PM >

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RE: Racism and Islamophobia. - 10/16/2014 6:37:11 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Dont you ever tire of being wrong, or stupid, or ignorant, or all three ? Start with the bollocks you quoted about headscarves worn by airline stewardesses.

I hope you move into a Muslim country for a year and experience really living among sharia law, and then come back and tell me if I'm still wrong, stupid or ignorant. Oh and if you have a wife or a daughter, please make sure you bring them there too, and see how you can keep them protected from committing crimes. If Islam is so wonderful, you should have no problem at all living in a sharia law runned country.

You think covering up for Muslims is just headscarf? Are you just thinking of that pretty headpiece Pakistani Muslims wear?

The actual verse specifically says, "Cover up everything except what is necessary to be left uncovered"

This the reason why they wear ninja suits. The only part necessary not to cover up is their eyes, as they need to see where they are going. But even Afghanistan created over head scarfs that covers whole face with mesh that they can see out but people can't see in.

Most Muslim not fully covering up are breaking the Islamic law.

You are blatantly lying if you claim all airlines allows this for their employees.



How about a joke to lighten things up a little

The angry little troll you were posting your reply to calls himself "polite sub"



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RE: Racism and Islamophobia. - 10/16/2014 6:52:20 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
A bigot, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, is an “obstinate and intolerant adherent of a creed or view”. I could go on but there's nothing I dislike more than pandering to the bigots.

You are a woman who wants to support a religion that teaches men how to discipline women physically. Good for you. Carry on supporting them. I am not giving tolerance to mistreatment of women.


< Message edited by Greta75 -- 10/16/2014 6:54:53 PM >

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RE: Racism and Islamophobia. - 10/17/2014 2:04:32 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
A bigot, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, is an “obstinate and intolerant adherent of a creed or view”. I could go on but there's nothing I dislike more than pandering to the bigots.

You are a woman who wants to support a religion that teaches men how to discipline women physically. Good for you. Carry on supporting them. I am not giving tolerance to mistreatment of women.



No, I'm a woman who lived in the Middle East. I'm a woman who was accepted and embraced by Muslims. I was a woman who took the time to learn and understand their faith and a woman who was never, never treated like an underdog by all those normal run of the mill Muslim men even though I wasn't a Muslim. I got to understand how they prize and adore their wives; how those Muslim wives were very much the boss in the house and how they were the ones who chose to cover themselves or not. I know how much their faith means to them and how they stick adamantly to their faith whilst running otherwise very normal and somewhat westernised lives. I have never lived amongst radical Muslims but that's not what you were talking about. You were talking about how Muslims don't fit in to your culture. Both of you were talking about head scarves and how they annoy you and not about how Taliban women are repressed and refused education. I could talk all day about how repressed the women are who live under Taliban rule and so could most "regular run of the mill Muslims" but that wasn't mentioned.


I have been through probably one of the worst things a person can go through and that thing still affects my personal life every single day. An act carried out by extremist Muslims and an act that could have me hating every Muslim on this god darn planet. I have to say though, the people who supported me, stood by me and got me through it were headscarf wearing, none pork eating people of the Muslim faith.



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RE: Racism and Islamophobia. - 10/17/2014 3:05:55 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
A bigot, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, is an “obstinate and intolerant adherent of a creed or view”. I could go on but there's nothing I dislike more than pandering to the bigots.

You are a woman who wants to support a religion that teaches men how to discipline women physically. Good for you. Carry on supporting them. I am not giving tolerance to mistreatment of women.



No, I'm a woman who lived in the Middle East. I'm a woman who was accepted and embraced by Muslims. I was a woman who took the time to learn and understand their faith and a woman who was never, never treated like an underdog by all those normal run of the mill Muslim men even though I wasn't a Muslim.

The fact that you were NOT a Muslim probably saved you from what most Muslim women have to live through in their daily lives.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
I got to understand how they prize and adore their wives;

Really??
The dog or goat is more highly prized than a wife.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
how those Muslim wives were very much the boss in the house

Not by any Muslim wife I know of around here or other places where I have lived.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
and how they were the ones who chose to cover themselves or not.

The husband dictates that a wife should not show her face (or anything else) to anyone other than her husband or immediate family.
The wife does not make that decision except as 'respect' for her husband - or more likely that she knows she will be beaten to within an inch of her life or be divorced by him if she disobeys his will (and a divorced Muslim woman is treated worse than dog shit by other Muslims).

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
I know how much their faith means to them and how they stick adamantly to their faith whilst running otherwise very normal and somewhat westernised lives.

Very little 'westernised' if my observations and responses from my local Muslim community is anything to go by.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
I have never lived amongst radical Muslims but that's not what you were talking about. You were talking about how Muslims don't fit in to your culture.

Most of them don't and refuse to do so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
Both of you were talking about head scarves and how they annoy you and not about how Taliban women are repressed and refused education. I could talk all day about how repressed the women are who live under Taliban rule and so could most "regular run of the mill Muslims" but that wasn't mentioned.


I have been through probably one of the worst things a person can go through and that thing still affects my personal life every single day. An act carried out by extremist Muslims and an act that could have me hating every Muslim on this god darn planet. I have to say though, the people who supported me, stood by me and got me through it were headscarf wearing, none pork eating people of the Muslim faith.

Good for you.
And yes, many people help others not of their own faith.
What was your point in mentioning this??


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RE: Racism and Islamophobia. - 10/17/2014 3:31:42 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
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From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		Australia has a special TV channel SBS that focuses on providing TV for the many ethnic minorities that have come to live here. It is running a very interesting series called "Living with the Enemy", during which people on differing sides of social and political issues go to live with the other side for a week One program in this series focussed on Islam:
"Almost half the Muslims in Australia live in south-western Sydney. The majority in just five suburbs centred around Bankstown. Ben was born and bred in Bankstown, he’s seen his world change as Arab Muslims have stamped their identity on his home suburb, and he doesn’t like what he sees.

Ahmed and Lydia are a devout Muslim couple living in western Sydney. Ahmed is from Egypt, Lydia is a convert who grew up in a country pub. Lydia converted in the wake of the September 11 attacks after enrolling in a course on Islam to better understand the religion and the motivation for the terror attacks. She wanted to find out why they had happened, and what motivated the hijackers. Instead of discovering a religion of hate and war, she says, she discovered a religion of peace and justice.

Ben believes there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. Can Lydia and Ahmed convince him otherwise?"
http://www.sbs.com.au/programs/living-with-the-enemy/article/2014/08/20/episode-4-islam

You can view the entire program at the link provided above. It's well worth watching as it canvasses many of the issues discussed in this thread. Ben turned out to be quite interesting for someone coming from such a bigoted perspective and is big enough to change his hard line position when confronted with ordinary Muslims whom he slowly realises are basically not that different to him. His bigotry was rooted in ignorance and fear of the unfamiliar, fear of the 'Other' and as his familiarity grows his fears dissipate.

I wonder how much some of the more rabid anti-Islam posters here on this thread would have in common with Ben, and whether they would turn out to be big enough to change their views when confronted with the reality of how most Muslims actually live their lives?



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RE: Racism and Islamophobia. - 10/17/2014 3:52:40 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I wonder how much some of the more rabid anti-Islam posters here on this thread would have in common with Ben, and whether they would turn out to be big enough to change their views when confronted with the reality of how most Muslims actually live their lives?

Nice piece tweak.
I didn't follow the link but I have spent many years living within, or on the fringe of, Muslim communities over the last 24 years of my life.
My kids spent 3 years of their schooling in a Muslim run school where only 6 were white out of a total of 1,000 (or was it 1200?) pupils.
I am very friendly with most of my local Muslim community here where I live now and I speak with most of them on a daily basis. My wife frequently speaks with the wives too.
I have seen their way of life.
I have witnessed first hand the way they interpret and enforce their religious beliefs - and there are as many different ways as there are christians.
And no, I won't change my outlook on Islam.
For the most part, I disagree on their principles and the way they treat females in general.
Very nice people and very friendly; but their religion sucks.




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RE: Racism and Islamophobia. - 10/17/2014 4:52:26 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		Hello! I live in the Israel of Asia. Except Israel chose war and we chose peace by handing them goodies to make them happy. In my country, we pamper Muslims!
My best girlfriend as a child was Muslim. When I say child, I mean from 10 to 14yrs old.
Her dad picks me and her up to school and back everyday and I have dinner with them every night before they send me home. I literally grew up with Muslims. My mom and her parents speaks fluent Malay, the mother tongue of Muslims in my region.

Not to mentioned that I am in the hardcore/punk/emo scene. It's 99% Muslims that are in that music scene. Lots of campaign to cry about Palestine being bullied and how evil Israel is, in those shows, and lots of women wearing tudungs. And I had my own band as a teenager for 6 years, we played emo hardcore and my bassist was Muslim, while my drummer and pianist was christian, and I'm an atheist. My Muslim friends know my very strong view about their religion. They respect that I don't have to like their religion.

That's what I grew up with, surrounded with Muslims, I am living right in the heart of them!

I am not saying they can't be good, I am simply saying their religion is not good. But as a human being, take away their religion, they have their own personality and character outside of religion that can be good, even Fundie Christians can be great! If you take their psycho religious beliefs away from them. Of course they have other good points.

But choosing a religion is like choosing a political view. I don't agree with their choice of political view, and the party they support, as simple as that. And I will never agree with their choice.

That program isn't gonna enlighten me on anything. Muslims is not something I only see on TV and News. I lived and grew up with them.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 10/17/2014 5:03:43 AM >

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RE: Racism and Islamophobia. - 10/17/2014 5:05:07 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
Hello! I live in the Israel of Asia. <snip>

The 'Israel' of Asia?? Huh??
That's a bit of an ass-backwards saying - and completely the opposite!!

Singapore is a wide diversity of religions and cultures.
Israel is virtually a monoculture and almost exclusively a singular religion.


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RE: Racism and Islamophobia. - 10/17/2014 5:07:12 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

You can view the entire program at the link provided above. It's well worth watching as it canvasses many of the issues discussed in this thread. Ben turned out to be quite interesting for someone coming from such a bigoted perspective and is big enough to change his hard line position when confronted with ordinary Muslims whom he slowly realises are basically not that different to him. His bigotry was rooted in ignorance and fear of the unfamiliar, fear of the 'Other' and as his familiarity grows his fears dissipate.

I wonder how much some of the more rabid anti-Islam posters here on this thread would have in common with Ben, and whether they would turn out to be big enough to change their views when confronted with the reality of how most Muslims actually live their lives?



Thank you tweakabelle, I'll download and watch that.

I think its incredibly sad that people are so susceptible to favoured rags and government propaganda. Intresting how many bigots UKIP is pulling of the woodwork.

Since this 'war on terror campaign' started, bash a Muslim along with widespread Ilsamophobia and growing hostility towards immigrants is manifesting itself across the country. Recessions haven't helped; people need a scapegoat for living in poverty and the 'Establishment', who continue to live their lives of luxury at our expense, are making sure we don't point a finger at them.

I'm happy to say, I live in London; one of the most multicultural and diverse cities in the world. Its a city where strong roots aren't necessary and virulent racists have either moved further north or got used to it. In London I don't feel like I live in a blighted society but then I don't feel uncomfortable when I'm surrounded by people living different cultures and speaking different languages. I don't look at olive skin bearded men with suspicion when I go to get my bread in the morning


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RE: Racism and Islamophobia. - 10/17/2014 5:12:58 AM   
Greta75


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quote:


No, I'm a woman who lived in the Middle East.

Which middle eastern country exactly? You know if you were a Muslim in Kazakhstan. Eating Pork is allowed. Even within Muslim community, they all pick and choose whatever they want, simple thing like how severely should they cover their head or should they cover their head at all, they all choose their own interpretation. But the Islam I hate is the Islam the Quran and Hadith talks about. See now those Kazakh pork eating Muslims would be my best friends, since they could enjoy meals with me and we could hang out. Alcohol drinking Muslims would probably be able to chill with me too! After all, the pious one are not allowed to enter any establishment that serves alcohol, so we won't be able to chill.

The big word is PIOUS.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
I got to understand how they prize and adore their wives;

Not impossible, but credit it to Islam? You must be joking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
and how they were the ones who chose to cover themselves or not.

Again, only because the husband allows it, but the husband is allowed to punish his wife for not covering herself, as clearly stated in the Quran. So it's back to the stone ages where ability to marry a kind and compassionate husband matters, or you're screwed.


< Message edited by Greta75 -- 10/17/2014 5:13:53 AM >

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RE: Racism and Islamophobia. - 10/17/2014 5:15:36 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
Hello! I live in the Israel of Asia. <snip>
The 'Israel' of Asia?? Huh??
That's a bit of an ass-backwards saying - and completely the opposite!!

Israel of Asia in geographical location dude! All our neighbours are majority Muslim countries. Exactly like Israel. Look in the map and you will see. Hell, our military is even trained by Israel military because we needed their expertisee as we are in the same unique position as they are in.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 10/17/2014 5:17:02 AM >

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RE: Racism and Islamophobia. - 10/17/2014 5:27:50 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
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Status: offline 		I don't particularly like certain religions. I don't understand Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses but if that's what they want to believe then who am I to condemn their belief?
I'm ignorant as to why Orthodox Jews wear pigtails and strange top hats whilst the women wear clothes that are drab and hats that look ugly. I don't understand why Sikhs wear turbans or Hindus wear saris and I don't understand why Buddhists shave their head and wear white robes. What I don't want them to do is remove these garments and dress like westerners when living in the west. Why would I?

This all came about because Muslim women wear scarves, are down trodden ( which for the most part I adamantly disagree with except for the far right ) and refuse to fit in with the culture of the country they are living in.

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RE: Racism and Islamophobia. - 10/17/2014 5:34:24 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

I don't particularly like certain religions. I don't understand Jehovah Witnesses but if that's what they want to believe then who am I to condemn their belief?

Ironically, Jehovah Witnesses is banned in my country and a jailable offense.

quote:

I don't understand why Sikhs wear turbans or Hindus wear saris

But I love Sikhs and Hindus, they never cause trouble or ever ask for special treatment in my country, they are great and easy going and don't expect us to make any special arrangement for their religious beliefs.

On top of that, my country love celebrating everything. So with the Hindu's, it's Deepavali, we'd light up the streets and make it pretty and put Happy Deepavali everywhere. Same with Muslims with their Hari Rayas, we also do the same for them, we love celebrating all the different religious special occasions because it's fun! No issues with all that. So we celebrate christmas, chinese new year, everything. Every race and religion gets their New Year. The fun stuffs that everybody can contribute and have fun together, we like.

The negative stuffs, like take away pork from chinese people, we don't like!

quote:

and I don't understand why Buddhists shave their head and wear white robes.
What I don't want them to do is remove these garments and dress like westerners when living in the west. Why would I?

The beauty of Buddhism is that, THEY DON'T have to shave their head or wear white robes. It's not compulsory. Whereas for Muslim females, it's compulsory that they aren't allowed to parade in bikinis IF they want to. I don't know how many Malaysian Miss Universe has to fear for her life, that now, they don't allow Muslim Miss Malaysia and always choose Chinese instead.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 10/17/2014 5:41:53 AM >

(in reply to MariaB)
Profile   Post #: 520
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