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RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/1/2015 8:44:20 PM   
GoddessManko


Posts: 2257
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From: Dante's Inferno
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quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

I have to admit that I have always been very bothered by the differentiation between mothers and fathers. I don't think there should be. There shouldn't be "mom things" and "dad things". I would have never called you a "stay at home mom" or "stay at home dad".....what you were was a "stay at home PARENT". One of my BIGGEST pet peeves in modern advertising is how they put so much on "mothers". "Choosy mothers choose JIF!" What? There are no "choosy fathers?" Why isn't is "choosy parents"? Or do fathers not give a rat's ass about what their kids eat?

I've also always been very offended by something else you mentioned (don't take this personally because I know a lot of people say this). This claim that women process things more emotionally and men more intellectually is such total crap it isn't even funny. I've always been a very logical person. Most of my family and friends tell me I'm not emotional enough. My one sister is a bit more emotional, but my other sister is more like me. My brother? He's a total marshmallow....in a good way. When my mom passed away, he was definitely the one of us 4 who was the most outwardly emotional about it. He's also been the most outwardly emotional when past relationships ended.
Plus....anybody who says that men process things more intellectually than emotionally has never watch a bunch of guys watching their team lose a football (or basketball, or baseball, or hockey..) game. I've also seen a lot more MEN than women getting into bar fights over petty issues (Sorry....this was kind of a side issue....I'll get off the stump now)

I think I understand what you're saying, get rid of more gender focused differentials as far as behavior is concerned. But what they mean is that it's like waking up "in the wrong body". I hate to think I can speak for TG people but I tried imagining it from a different perspective. From a Freaky Friday perspective. Literally waking up in the wrong body,having the wrong name, being addressed incorrectly or forced to wear clothes that made me feel uncomfortable and perpetuating wrongful behavior.

quote:


If people were blind, they wouldn't know that other people were fat or....wore thick glasses, or ....walked with a limp, or....had bad teeth, or....any other physical principle, and nobody would ever judge anyone on appearance. But the fact of the matter is that people DO judge others on appearance. That's just the way the world is.


Probably. It would depend on if they started acting differently then they had in past years.


You seem very focused on two things, the gender differentials as well as physical appearance. Why? Don't know. My dad was mom+ like Exiled and the "choosy moms choose jif" comments never bothered me. You said someone revealing their gender identity issue would bother you, that just means you're intolerant of people who do/are. I don't think our offering answers to your questions will change that, you're just sort of hoping someone will justify those feelings. Your feelings are yours alone, it is not anyone's place to tell you what to do with them. You have acknowledged you have them so only you can take steps to better understanding them and the "why".

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/2/2015 2:57:42 AM   
NookieNotes


Posts: 1720
Joined: 11/10/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50


quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

I really think you are missing the point. It's not just about the dolls or trucks. The rest of the stuff is important.

Not to be mean, but you are typifying privilege right now. By saying since you have never felt that way, you can't comprehend that others do.

I have never felt it, either, but I do try to understand that when someone says they feel they are in the wrong body, or that it doesn't fit in the right places. I will never KNOW that feeling. I just accept that they do.

LadyXandreia said it much better than I can.


Are you saying that you don't "feel like a girl"?

I'm just trying to figure out what he meant by "feel like a girl?" What does it mean to "feel like a girl?" or "feel like a boy?"


I have never felt not-right in my own body. Or that my body is something different other than who I am.

You feel like you. You are in a female body, and that feels right to you. Feeling like you have all the wrong parts and a born-female would be feeling like a boy. Feeling that you should have a cock would be feeling like a boy. Feeling that you like girls the way a boy does and not the way a girl does is feeling like a boy.

How would it feel to feel like another race? I don't know. Neither do you. That is why we have to accept that people define it for themselves.


quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

THAT'S my question. What do you mean "gender you identify with"? I mean....I call myself. a girl because that's just what I was told I am. I don't really "identify" myself as a girl. I'm a PERSON, I'm just ME. Yes....suddenly waking up with a penis between my legs would feel "wrong" but just in a strictly physical sense....the same way waking up with any other physical difference would feel.


And you feel that physical difference as wrong, but others tell you it's right. Your whole life. You KNOW it's wrong. They tell you it's not.

Yeah. It's not just physical then.

Frankly, I think you are being purposefully obtuse.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko

You seem very focused on two things, the gender differentials as well as physical appearance. Why? Don't know. My dad was mom+ like Exiled and the "choosy moms choose jif" comments never bothered me. You said someone revealing their gender identity issue would bother you, that just means you're intolerant of people who do/are. I don't think our offering answers to your questions will change that, you're just sort of hoping someone will justify those feelings. Your feelings are yours alone, it is not anyone's place to tell you what to do with them. You have acknowledged you have them so only you can take steps to better understanding them and the "why".


Agreed.

You have had it explained to you in several ways, and refuse to address the examples that give you more than you can easily refute with a simple, "But I feel this..."

If you want to purposefully not understand or be intolerant, just go ahead. Much simpler than pretending you can't comprehend the idea that others do not feel the way you do.



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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/2/2015 3:33:40 AM   
smileforme50


Posts: 1623
Joined: 1/24/2013
From: DelaWHERE(?)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko


quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

I have to admit that I have always been very bothered by the differentiation between mothers and fathers. I don't think there should be. There shouldn't be "mom things" and "dad things". I would have never called you a "stay at home mom" or "stay at home dad".....what you were was a "stay at home PARENT". One of my BIGGEST pet peeves in modern advertising is how they put so much on "mothers". "Choosy mothers choose JIF!" What? There are no "choosy fathers?" Why isn't is "choosy parents"? Or do fathers not give a rat's ass about what their kids eat?

I've also always been very offended by something else you mentioned (don't take this personally because I know a lot of people say this). This claim that women process things more emotionally and men more intellectually is such total crap it isn't even funny. I've always been a very logical person. Most of my family and friends tell me I'm not emotional enough. My one sister is a bit more emotional, but my other sister is more like me. My brother? He's a total marshmallow....in a good way. When my mom passed away, he was definitely the one of us 4 who was the most outwardly emotional about it. He's also been the most outwardly emotional when past relationships ended.
Plus....anybody who says that men process things more intellectually than emotionally has never watch a bunch of guys watching their team lose a football (or basketball, or baseball, or hockey..) game. I've also seen a lot more MEN than women getting into bar fights over petty issues (Sorry....this was kind of a side issue....I'll get off the stump now)

I think I understand what you're saying, get rid of more gender focused differentials as far as behavior is concerned. But what they mean is that it's like waking up "in the wrong body". I hate to think I can speak for TG people but I tried imagining it from a different perspective. From a Freaky Friday perspective. Literally waking up in the wrong body,having the wrong name, being addressed incorrectly or forced to wear clothes that made me feel uncomfortable and perpetuating wrongful behavior.

quote:


If people were blind, they wouldn't know that other people were fat or....wore thick glasses, or ....walked with a limp, or....had bad teeth, or....any other physical principle, and nobody would ever judge anyone on appearance. But the fact of the matter is that people DO judge others on appearance. That's just the way the world is.


Probably. It would depend on if they started acting differently then they had in past years.


You seem very focused on two things, the gender differentials as well as physical appearance. Why? Don't know. My dad was mom+ like Exiled and the "choosy moms choose jif" comments never bothered me. You said someone revealing their gender identity issue would bother you, that just means you're intolerant of people who do/are. I don't think our offering answers to your questions will change that, you're just sort of hoping someone will justify those feelings. Your feelings are yours alone, it is not anyone's place to tell you what to do with them. You have acknowledged you have them so only you can take steps to better understanding them and the "why".


My point is that everybody else is bent on gender differentials. These assumptions and prejudices people have about gender is exactly what I'm asking about and commenting on. I'm asking....what does it mean to "feel like a girl"? How does a girl feel? What does it mean to "feel like a boy"? How does a boy feel? Commenting on what ET said....short of biology of actually having the kid, what does it "feel to be a father" vs "how does it feel to be a mother"? Why don't people just feel like a PERSON and parents just feel like a PARENT? If a homosexual couple adopts a child, does that mean that the child had 2 mothers but no father, or 2 fathers but no mother?

I'm just saying that this kid is the one who was so wrapped up in gender roles and obsessed with what it means to be a certain gender instead of concentrating on being himself.

I think the real reason it bothers me is because no matter how much they say it, they are still going to be whatever their biology dictates.



I should have asked ET.....So if "Leelah" messaged you hear and she was everything you want as a submissive partner and you started to pursue a relationship with her, then the first time you meet face to face, or the first time she gets naked for you you discovered she had a penis, would you still continue the relationship?



< Message edited by smileforme50 -- 1/2/2015 3:37:28 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/2/2015 6:28:34 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyXandreia

You know yourself to be a woman. Everywhere you go, people support that knowledge. But imagine if the opposite happened. If you headed into a women's bathroom and someone said, "Hey, buddy, what the hell do you think you're doing?" If you were shopping for women's clothing and held a dress up to yourself, and people eyed you as if you were crazy and maybe pulled their kids away from you. If you went to order a coffee and the person behind the counter said, "Here you go, sir." If that sort of thing happened day in and day out, and you expressed your frustration to someone and they told you that you were trying to be something you're not, and going against God besides. I think that if that happened to you, you'd know exactly what it meant to feel like a girl. You'd be painfully aware at all times that what you are is not what everyone else sees when they look at you.



That shit has been happening to me for as long as I can remember. When I mention it, I am told it's because of the way I dress or because my hair is too short. No one has ever suggested it's because I am trying to be something I am not and God was never brought up. And yet I am with smile in that I am not sure what they mean by "feel like a girl". In the past year I have grown my hair longer than it's been since jr high school. I don't feel any different and still get called sir.

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/2/2015 8:46:36 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50



I'm just saying that this kid is the one who was so wrapped up in gender roles and obsessed with what it means to be a certain gender instead of concentrating on being himself.

I think the real reason it bothers me is because no matter how much they say it, they are still going to be whatever their biology dictates.



When our gender feels right we don't really think about it because our gender to us is the most natural thing in the world. I for example have never felt uncomfortable with my gender; have you smileforme? I'm so feminine that dressing in jeans and sneekers and wearing no make-up or having my hair cut pixie short doesn't even touch on my femininity for the simple reason, I never feel like a man. When I pick up an angle grinder or a hammer drill and use it with the same expertise as a man, I don't feel like a man then either. I'm bi but when I make out with a woman I feel like a woman and when I wear a strap-on I feel like a woman. I love being a woman and no matter how hard I try, I can't imagine being a man. If I woke up tomorrow with a dick, I would be at the hospital begging them to chop it off.

The girl in your link is female trapped in a male body with parents that didn't, couldn't and wouldn't understand. I don't blame them, (geez they must be blaming themselves right now) because that's the way they've been brought up and that's what the church has dictated to them but this person that you keep pointing out as a guy, I very much look at as a female who was unfortunate enough to be born with the wrong parts and this girl could so easily of been remedied if only she hadn't taken her own life.

From what you are saying in the posts you have written, you sound as though you are gender neutral in the way you think and feel and yet the avatar you chose is very girly and certainly gives us all the message that you are very much a female.

< Message edited by MariaB -- 1/2/2015 8:48:12 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/3/2015 12:20:33 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		~FR~

I have no cares about who does what calls it what identifies as what etc. Not my business, not my concern.

But...an observation. Admittedly merely anecdotal from my limited contact. And primarily with college age/younger adults.

The few dozen I have known were all about drama. They were perhaps trying to be, but they were especially trying to say look at me.

And whatever the cause of that dramatic flair--this is just one instance--it immediately quells my empathy.

Not saying this is universal--just my perhaps coincidental experience.

Add to this that teens are nearly always all about drama--everything is wonderful or tragic, no middle ground.

Not meaning in anyway to minimize this teen's tragedy. Just looking at the situation from all sides.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/3/2015 12:48:22 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/3/2015 1:51:26 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50
My point is that everybody else is bent on gender differentials. These assumptions and prejudices people have about gender is exactly what I'm asking about and commenting on. I'm asking....what does it mean to "feel like a girl"? How does a girl feel? What does it mean to "feel like a boy"? How does a boy feel?

I can't say I have the fainest idea. I can remember being taught that I was a boy because I have a penis, I don't recall having feelings about it. It was one of those facts that got stored away for later like use the blue crayon to color water.


quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50
I'm just saying that this kid is the one who was so wrapped up in gender roles and obsessed with what it means to be a certain gender instead of concentrating on being himself.

I have seen what looks an awful lot like fetishistic behavior, a situation where the guys were wearing pants and shirts, the girls were wearing pants and shirts and the transgendered person was wearing an over the top pink skirt getup.


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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/3/2015 1:58:03 PM   
LiveSpark


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/25/2014
Status: offline 		Are you sure the person you thought was transgender wasn't a crossdresser? I ask because the trans people I've met didn't dress anything like what you're describing. Each and every one has dressed neatly and not the least bit over the top.

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RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/3/2015 2:02:51 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark
Are you sure the person you thought was transgender wasn't a crossdresser?

Yes.

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RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/3/2015 2:09:40 PM   
LiveSpark


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/25/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark
Are you sure the person you thought was transgender wasn't a crossdresser?

Yes.



How? Did you ask them or are you assuming? I ask because, again, not a single one of the TG people I know dress "out there". Not one. I'm sure there are some but then there are also CIS people who dress that way, I don't think it's a TG thing.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/3/2015 5:25:18 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark
How? Did you ask them or are you assuming?

I just checked their profile, it says female.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark
I ask because, again, not a single one of the TG people I know dress "out there". Not one. I'm sure there are some but then there are also CIS people who dress that way, I don't think it's a TG thing.

I've really only seen TG that dress over the top, of course it could be the case that I'm not cueing in on the more subtle dressers, thinking their metro sexual or whatnot. Which is of course the problem with using anecdotes instead of statistics.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/3/2015 5:33:06 PM   
LiveSpark


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/25/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark
How? Did you ask them or are you assuming?

I just checked their profile, it says female.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark
I ask because, again, not a single one of the TG people I know dress "out there". Not one. I'm sure there are some but then there are also CIS people who dress that way, I don't think it's a TG thing.

I've really only seen TG that dress over the top, of course it could be the case that I'm not cueing in on the more subtle dressers, thinking their metro sexual or whatnot. Which is of course the problem with using anecdotes instead of statistics.


Ah okay I thought you were talking about an offline gathering or something like that. See because those I've met, as I said, haven't been at all out there. Still there are people of all orientations who are so there are bound to be some TG who are as well.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/3/2015 5:44:51 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark
Ah okay I thought you were talking about an offline gathering or something like that.

I was.

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/3/2015 5:47:00 PM   
LiveSpark


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/25/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark
Ah okay I thought you were talking about an offline gathering or something like that.

I was.


You were what? Could you write in sentences I'm having a hard time understanding what you're saying.

_____________________________

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I also have the sarcasm gene which is NOT to be taken seriously.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/3/2015 6:52:29 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline 		I was "talking about an offline gathering or something like that".

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/4/2015 1:58:16 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Like you LiveSpark, I've found that Trans tend to overdress when out and TG's if anything dress it down a lot. Of course, lots of trans call themselves female too.


ED to say,

Why are we making this about the clothes they wear?!? It makes it sound so frivolous and anyone who knows pre-op and post op people know that the majority don't want to bring attention to themselves, are not into kink or fetishes and certainly not into dressing ott. Its not a frivolous whim for them, its a life changing decision and one that fortunately most of us will never have to be troubled with. The suicide rate for pre/post op genders is sadly still far too high and maybe we should take that as a measure of just how tough it is.



< Message edited by MariaB -- 1/4/2015 2:37:53 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/4/2015 2:58:43 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		A close friend of mine gave birth to a daughter. They said goodbye to that daughter when she was 16 and started her journey of moving into a male body. Five previous years of attempted suicides, self harm and such awful melancholy because, even with the most liberal of parents, his fears of rejection were all confounding. Fortunately for him he had two fantastic parents who helped him on his journey. Long before the first part of the op they held a party and invited every neighbour, every friend and every relative and made their joyous announcement that a new son was about to be born into their family; that his name was xxxxxx and that from now on they would like everyone to identify with him as a male and not a female. The way it was done was perfect. not a single person questioned "why", even the elders in the family; not a single neighbour shunned him and nobody slipped up and put their big foot in it after that night.

He's 23 now and has completed his gender change. He has a good job, has just got married and is one of the most level headed, sensible people I know. I remember his mum telling me, "it was a sad day when I had to let go of my daughter but a wonderful day when my son came into our lives". My friend has taught me so much about acceptance and love without question.

< Message edited by MariaB -- 1/4/2015 3:08:02 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/4/2015 3:05:26 AM   
skinpuprebel


Posts: 3
Joined: 1/2/2015
Status: offline 		Hey OP. You obviously don't care to understand it, and don't want to make any real effort to do so. But that is no reason to trivialize these people and their experiences...

Also, I think the most telling thing about this whole thread is the fact that you referred to her as a boy. The news media protocol about dealing with transgender people is to use their preferred pronouns. Every article I read about her has listed her as female. You read one of those articles and when you typed out this thread you made the informed choice to refer to her as a boy.

This not only makes you incredibly insensitive, it means that you have already made up your mind on this topic and you just want to start a thread to mock those people. Seriously, don't be a piece of crap. Have some respect for this poor girl.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/4/2015 3:10:20 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		I wish we had a like button on here.

Welcome to the forums skinpuprebel :)

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/4/2015 3:15:24 AM   
skinpuprebel


Posts: 3
Joined: 1/2/2015
Status: offline 		Thanks @mariaB couldn't pass this one by without saying something for that poor kid.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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