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RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/7/2015 1:41:54 PM   
ExiledTyrant


Posts: 4547
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From: Exiled
Status: offline 		She's correct. She is, in fact, 99.99% sweetie, it's that random .01% you have to watch out for, but it isn't ever snark... sarcasm, yep, but not snark.

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(in reply to camille65)
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RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/7/2015 1:43:54 PM   
ExiledTyrant


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From: Exiled
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


I have no idea how that teenager felt, I've never felt so harassed nor needed external validation to the point of contemplating whether death was preferable to life. So I cannot possibly empathize with someone in that situation, the best I can do is look at the attachment I have to my life and recognize that it must take something horrible to choose to give life up.






And yet we had pages of "hazing posters", shot your empathy wad on that one, dinya?


_____________________________

Gnothi Seauton
To lead, first follow: Aurelius, Epictetus, Descartes, Sun Tzu, to name a few.

Semper fidelis (which sometimes feels like a burden)

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/7/2015 1:52:58 PM   
LiveSpark


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/25/2014
Status: offline 		Wait am I understanding you correctly Steel that you think needing external validation played a part in that teen's decision to kill herself? You really seriously believe that? If that's so you really are lacking in sympathy and understanding.

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I've been here as MontrealPhoenix, zephyr and
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I also have the sarcasm gene which is NOT to be taken seriously.

If you fall I'll always be there to catch you ~ Floor

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/7/2015 1:53:44 PM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

~FR~

I have no cares about who does what calls it what identifies as what etc. Not my business, not my concern.

But...an observation. Admittedly merely anecdotal from my limited contact. And primarily with college age/younger adults.

The few dozen I have known were all about drama. They were perhaps trying to be, but they were especially trying to say look at me.

And whatever the cause of that dramatic flair--this is just one instance--it immediately quells my empathy.

Not saying this is universal--just my perhaps coincidental experience.

Add to this that teens are nearly always all about drama--everything is wonderful or tragic, no middle ground.

Not meaning in anyway to minimize this teen's tragedy. Just looking at the situation from all sides.



I've had similar experiences, and also limited.

I don't really care what anyone else does, but whatever it is, when they thrive on attention and drama, I feel less moved by their plight and more moved to distance myself from them.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/7/2015 1:56:53 PM   
NookieNotes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

In the OP she did said that she's uncomfortable with TG but thinks that they should have the same rights as everyone else which is what tolerance looks like.


I don't think so. I believe tolerance is a level that allows that people have differences of experience, not that they are over-dramatic (they couldn't actually feel that way, after all), but give them the same rights anyway, because otherwise I look like a jerk.

Which, to be fair, I may be reading wrong. If I came across that way (and sometimes I am read VERY wrong), I would try to fix it. The OP has disappeared, so there is no way of knowing whether she has come around, or feels bad for coming across the way she has, or...

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(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/7/2015 7:50:25 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
Which, to be fair, I may be reading wrong. If I came across that way (and sometimes I am read VERY wrong), I would try to fix it.

I endeavor to use the principle of charity to interpret other people's position, I don't always succeed and it can make me overly optimistic:

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity
In philosophy and rhetoric, the principle of charity requires interpreting a speaker's statements to be rational and, in the case of any argument, considering its best, strongest possible interpretation.


But even with those faults I think it's an important principle to try for as it has a history of advancing discussions more than looking for the weakest possible interpretation of someones words.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
The OP has disappeared, so there is no way of knowing whether she has come around, or feels bad for coming across the way she has, or...

Bullying has a tendency to silence people and force conformity. Whether we're talking about TG people or people questioning what TG is, bullying is an effective deterrent that's why people use it.

Don't get me wrong, I do think bigot bullying has it's place in civil rights movements (including this one), but I also suspect that for effectiveness that place shouldn't be first or second place.

P.S. I should probably put a disclaimer that these responses are me explaining where I'm coming from and are not meant to be construed as a critique of you personally.

(in reply to NookieNotes)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/7/2015 8:40:47 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant
And yet we had pages of "hazing posters", shot your empathy wad on that one, dinya?


By definition I can only empathize with what I understand. Having watched someone I know get hazed off the site by regulars making assumptions I knew to be false of course I can empathize with posters who are potentially in that same position. With TG I haven't had that same sort of experience, so dead end there.

As an alternative path to empathy, someone explained homosexuality to me in a way that caused me to gain some empathy by analogy. I can recall seeing Princess Leia on a leash (very first person I was ever attracted to) I'm pretty sure that's what made me kinky. Recognizing that experience could have been toward Han Solo (not that it's a perfect analogy mind you) but in terms of having an attraction that's socially not ok, being in the closet, etc. it does provide me a frame of reference useful for establishing empathy.

Do you have something similar for me for TG?

(in reply to ExiledTyrant)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/7/2015 9:04:17 PM   
ExiledTyrant


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From: Exiled
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant
And yet we had pages of "hazing posters", shot your empathy wad on that one, dinya?


By definition I can only empathize with what I understand. Having watched someone I know get hazed off the site by regulars making assumptions I knew to be false of course I can empathize with posters who are potentially in that same position. With TG I haven't had that same sort of experience, so dead end there.

As an alternative path to empathy, someone explained homosexuality to me in a way that caused me to gain some empathy by analogy. I can recall seeing Princess Leia on a leash (very first person I was ever attracted to) I'm pretty sure that's what made me kinky. Recognizing that experience could have been toward Han Solo (not that it's a perfect analogy mind you) but in terms of having an attraction that's socially not ok, being in the closet, etc. it does provide me a frame of reference useful for establishing empathy.

Do you have something similar for me for TG?


Abso-fucking-lutely.

You are a sick fucking perv that has absolutely no fucking morals what-so-ever and you shall burn in hell by the will of god because of your sick and twisted sexual perversions.

Steel, is it such a stretch to understand that you are different, not the burger and fry WASP of the world? Empathy is naked and blind. In your above "story" of your friend being ran off the site that you felt empathy for, if it was truly empathy then you would know that empathy is naked and blind... it does not have a criteria for it to be expressed, it is the ability to relate to pain, angst, longing, loss, etc... What you experienced was contempt over your loss. You took it as a personal offense because it was your friend... contempt, anger, at the loss of your friend on the site. It was not empathy, for if it was, you would understand that empathy is naked and it is blind. Your "hazing" thread was a white knight moment for you trying to control that which you cannot control.


_____________________________

Gnothi Seauton
To lead, first follow: Aurelius, Epictetus, Descartes, Sun Tzu, to name a few.

Semper fidelis (which sometimes feels like a burden)

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/8/2015 2:15:39 AM   
NookieNotes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
P.S. I should probably put a disclaimer that these responses are me explaining where I'm coming from and are not meant to be construed as a critique of you personally.


I don't take it that way.

You don't actually know me.

And I agree. I try to take things positively as well, whenever possible. Which is why I said I may be wrong, and spent time trying to explain in the first place.

I do find that I have little patience for people who willfully refuse to understand, simply because something is outside of their experience.

It's a flaw, I know.

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/8/2015 5:48:32 AM   
LiveSpark


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/25/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant
And yet we had pages of "hazing posters", shot your empathy wad on that one, dinya?


By definition I can only empathize with what I understand. Having watched someone I know get hazed off the site by regulars making assumptions I knew to be false of course I can empathize with posters who are potentially in that same position. With TG I haven't had that same sort of experience, so dead end there.

As an alternative path to empathy, someone explained homosexuality to me in a way that caused me to gain some empathy by analogy. I can recall seeing Princess Leia on a leash (very first person I was ever attracted to) I'm pretty sure that's what made me kinky. Recognizing that experience could have been toward Han Solo (not that it's a perfect analogy mind you) but in terms of having an attraction that's socially not ok, being in the closet, etc. it does provide me a frame of reference useful for establishing empathy.

Do you have something similar for me for TG?


Steel, as you yourself note in your example, it isn't necessary to be TG in order to empathize. Anyone who has been marginalized, teased, and bullied for being different can identify with and therefore empathize with that TG teen. It really is that simple. As a child I was treated as she was. I'm not TG but the way I was treated was the same. If you have never been treated that way then yes you can't empathize but it doesn't mean that noone who isn't TG can't empathize, being TG isn't a requirement.

_____________________________

I've been here as MontrealPhoenix, zephyr and
TheFireWithinMe.

I also have the sarcasm gene which is NOT to be taken seriously.

If you fall I'll always be there to catch you ~ Floor

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/8/2015 7:17:04 PM   
GotSteel


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Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark
Anyone who has been marginalized, teased, and bullied for being different can identify with and therefore empathize with that TG teen.
It really is that simple. As a child I was treated as she was. I'm not TG but the way I was treated was the same. If you have never been treated that way then yes you can't empathize but it doesn't mean that noone who isn't TG can't empathize, being TG isn't a requirement.


I'll agree that being TG isn't the only way to get here: "Please don't be sad, it's for the better. The life I would've lived isn't worth living in" but I'm glad to be able to say I've never been anywhere near there and I'm sorry that you have been.

(in reply to LiveSpark)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 1/9/2015 5:34:26 AM   
LiveSpark


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/25/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: LiveSpark
Anyone who has been marginalized, teased, and bullied for being different can identify with and therefore empathize with that TG teen.
It really is that simple. As a child I was treated as she was. I'm not TG but the way I was treated was the same. If you have never been treated that way then yes you can't empathize but it doesn't mean that noone who isn't TG can't empathize, being TG isn't a requirement.


I'll agree that being TG isn't the only way to get here: "Please don't be sad, it's for the better. The life I would've lived isn't worth living in" but I'm glad to be able to say I've never been anywhere near there and I'm sorry that you have been.


That's really classy Steel, thank you for this post. I'm glad you've never been there and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But you know what the saying "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger". At the end of the day it is a part of what has made me who and what I am, stronger and better able to deal with the hard stuff.

_____________________________

I've been here as MontrealPhoenix, zephyr and
TheFireWithinMe.

I also have the sarcasm gene which is NOT to be taken seriously.

If you fall I'll always be there to catch you ~ Floor

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Transgender Teen's Suicide - 10/12/2015 5:33:19 AM   
slavemali


Posts: 92
Joined: 10/5/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/31/us/ohio-transgender-teen-suicide/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

A 17 year-old boy in Ohio committed suicide earlier this week. This is a part of what was written in the suicide note:

""Please don't be sad, it's for the better. The life I would've lived isn't worth living in... because I'm transgender," the note said. "I could go into detail explaining why I feel that way, but this note is probably going to be lengthy enough as it is. To put it simply, I feel like a girl trapped in a boy's body, and I've felt that way ever since I was 4. I never knew there was a word for that feeling, nor was it possible for a boy to become a girl, so I never told anyone and I just continued to do traditionally 'boyish' things to try to fit in."

I will admit that even now in the 21st century, I am still not fully "embracing" the concepts of transgender, transsexual ...or transvestite for that matter. Ok....I admit it....call me close-minded or whatever you want. I'm not saying I hate these people or that I don't think they shouldn't be given the same rights as everyone else. I'm just saying that I'm uncomfortable with them and I don't actively seek interactions with them.

But I have to ask....maybe someone here can explain it to me.....what does it mean to "feel" like a girl? Or "feel" like a boy? Can't a person just "feel" like the person they are?

I can't say that I "feel" like I girl.....I don't know what that "feels" like. I just feel like.....ME!


Let me take a smack at this..... for me it meant that what God gave me didn't match, I never fit in fully no matter how I tried to overcompensate to the gender everyone else choose for me it just didn't work. You can't unfortunately in the American society feel like the person you are, you have to pick a side based on what others view you as, since at many levels you still have to exists and live publicly in the world.

Hope that helps your understanding or positively effects your empathy

(in reply to smileforme50)
Profile   Post #: 93
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