RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (Full Version)

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Dvr22999874 -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/26/2015 4:46:50 PM)

Watford ? I used to think that was the big city when we lived in Little Chalfont. I used to go there shoplifting as a kid playing hookey from school




stef -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/26/2015 4:56:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

Where is Indiania?

I suspect that's where joether got his college degree.

K.


/thread [:D]




Lucylastic -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/26/2015 4:58:41 PM)


A view from the Indy Star....
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2015/03/25/gov-mike-pence-sign-religious-freedom-bill-thursday/70448858/

Once again, Statehouse Republicans have found a way to divide our state. They've done so this time with a bill that will allow business owners to judge the morality of their potential customers.


Let's call it what it is. It's discrimination wrapped up in a legislative bow. It's divisiveness painted as something holy. It's tired and cynical politics weakly masked as a principled stand.

Sure, it is cleverly labeled with a market-tested name (the Religious Freedom bill), but please don't be fooled: This is nothing more than a government endorsement of discrimination. Yes, in this land of liberty, our state's government is prepared to push into law a measure allowing one group of people to tell others that they are not equal and not welcome at their businesses.

Those black-and-white images of signs announcing which customers businesses welcomed? They don't seem so much like faded relics of history today.

Once again, Statehouse Republicans have found a way to divide our state. They've done so with a bill that will allow business owners to judge the morality of their potential customers and to decide whether those customers are worthy of spending their money in their shop, bakery, or whatever.

My goodness, can Indiana Republicans just get past an anger over gays and lesbians that borders on the obsessive? Apparently, they cannot. And, so, after losing their war over same-sex marriage last year, Statehouse Republicans have joined a national conservative effort to create a crisis that doesn't exist. Along the way, they are making clear that yesterday — or, to be more accurate, the last century — still controls today's Grand Old Party.


As ridiculous as this is, it's also serious and damaging. A General Assembly that should and could spend its 2015 session tackling the state's deeply entrenched problems is instead seeking to tear our state a little further apart.

It's sickening. It's pathetic. And for a moment this week, before I decided I would not allow some misguided politicians to define the state I love, it made me ashamed to be a Hoosier.

The moment of shame, mixed with anger and a bit of sadness, hit hardest when Jason Collins, the first openly gay NBA player, sent out a brutal but fair message on Twitter Monday night: "Is it going to be legal," he asked, "to discriminate when we come to the Final Four?"

Well, the law won't be in place by the time the 2015 Final Four comes to town next week. But it will be in place the next time it comes here. And the next time a lot of visitors come here. And, yes, Jason, I guess that is the goal our legislative majority wants to achieve. They want businesses to have the right to turn you and so many others away because they don't like who you are.

On behalf of a good chunk of Indiana, I'm sorry.


The Tweet from Collins came hours after a majority of Indiana House Republicans passed the so-called Religious Freedom bill, which should from this point on be called the Freedom to Discriminate bill. That vote paved the way for the Senate to send the bill along to Gov. Mike Pence, who is eagerly waiting to give it a hug.

When he does, Indiana will have officially endorsed discrimination. Its government majority will have sent a message to many of its residents that they are not equal citizens of this state. It will have told the nation that Indiana government will side in some cases with discriminators, and not those who have been discriminated.

It doesn't matter whether this new law is limited in scope. The fact that it will be a law at all is shameful. And it's going to hurt Indiana.

Business leaders have made clear that the law will add to the troubles Indiana already has with luring companies and employees to Indiana. If the legislature were trying to reinforce Indiana's image as a backwater, it couldn't have done better than this. I Googled "Indiana" Tuesday morning, and this issue was at the top of the page.

How embarrassing.


But this shouldn't be a debate about the economic impact of a law, or about the state's image. That is not what matters most. Rather, it should be a debate about being a decent and welcoming state. Or at least a tolerant one. One that abhors the idea of dividing its people for political means. It should a debate that considers the harm a public endorsement of discrimination can do to the people who will now be more open targets of discrimination. It should be a debate about what kind of state Indiana truly wants to be.

Few laws are worse than those that give the majority the power to bully a minority. Those are the laws that this country always looks back on with shame. Those are the laws that expose the worst impulses in our elected leaders.

So, yes, for a moment this week I was embarrassed to be a Hoosier. But it is the Statehouse Republicans who voted for this travesty who should be embarrassed. The fact that they are not shows just how desperately their party needs a new generation of leaders.





Lucylastic -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/26/2015 5:00:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Watford ? I used to think that was the big city when we lived in Little Chalfont. I used to go there shoplifting as a kid playing hookey from school

another place thats lovely to come from, not to go to:)
i have some lovely memories from both places:)




Kirata -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/26/2015 5:02:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

When you enact a law thats makes anyone second class citizens as a political ploy, you deserve all the bullshit you get thrown back at you.

These days, a second-class citizen is anybody who doesn't belong to one of the protected classes. If you hate blondes, you can rape them at will and never have to worry about a hate-crime charge buying you a longer sentence. Isn't that nice? But that's the game. Some people just don't like the folks at bat this time. I don't like the game.

K.





Lucylastic -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/26/2015 5:08:10 PM)

LMFAO




BamaD -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/26/2015 5:16:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

The Governor of Indiania, Mike Pence, signed into law a bill that allows businesses to refuse customers they think are gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, or even transgendered. While he tried to explain it as not being that; only those supporting the GOP/TOP would be dumb enough not to figure this out as being the wrong idea. Pushing religious dogma down the citizen's throats, it is now legal for a business to refuse to serve someone they think is homosexual. Likewise, means they can refuse....anyone....and later claim "I thought they were gay/lebsian/bisexual/transgendered". So that black guy whom is heterosexual, can be refused, right along with the combat veteran, blind/deaf person, and anyone not of the same religion (i.e. muslims).

All the business owner has to say is "I thought they were gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgendered."

This....*IS*....an example of tyranny! I expect all those Indianans whom have guns to immediately resist this law pass by both a state legislature and executive branches. Otherwise, we can cross that myth off the list of other firearm myths in the nation.

On a more serious note, how the FUCK does this get past the citizens? That I can see this law being used abusively onto US Citizens and even tourists. Right off the bat, two major groups have stated they will be moving their events eleswhere unless this law is purged: Gen Con and the Disciples of Christ church group. For those that dont know, Gen Con is like the 'Mecca of the Gaming World' (thing Comic Con, meets PAX East and Dungeon & Dragons). That is a HUGE amount of future tourist dollars being lost by area businesses.

The NCAA is also considering removing itself from this state. A major lost for students enrolled in area schools.

Gov. Pence is considered one of the possible 2016 contenders. This bill is help satisfy conservatives, that he is a 'defender of Christian freedom' (at the expense of all other religions and views of Christianity of others). Its a bill pushed for petty political points, not, solid and reasonable government. When signing the bill into law, Gov. Pence had this to say:

"The Constitution of the United States and the Indiana Constitution both provide strong recognition of the freedom of religion but today, many people of faith feel their religious liberty is under attack by government action..."

Yeah, if someone else's faith in philosophy or religion was not affected by gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgender person; how does this law help them? It doesn't. These people's religious viewpoints are irrelevant according to the Governor of their state!

He goes on to say:

"This was a measure that frankly, Indiana should have enacted many years ago. It gives our courts guidance about evaluating government action and puts the highest standard -- it essentially says, if a government is going to compel you to act in a way that violates your religious beliefs, there has to be a compelling state interest."

I wonder how the citizens of Indiana are enjoying that religious fanatical fascism they elected to public office? Maybe they should be a bit more careful...WHO....they elect to government, eh?

SOURCE


Sorry, missed the point in this brief description of the bill were it said they couldn't serve people because of sexual orientation. Making people do something is tyranny, allowing them to decide for themselves what they will do is not.




Politesub53 -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/26/2015 5:33:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Luton is a great place to come from Lucy..................not a very good place to go TO but definitely a good place to come FROM !!

Im from Watford, I know exactly what you are sayin!!!!


Oh great.... A northerners love in..... Jus sayin an all. [8D]




DesideriScuri -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/26/2015 6:05:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
I would much rather see genuinely GLBT-friendly businesses flourish than deal with business owners that don't appreciate my almighty dollar.
It always reminds me of that scene in Pretty Woman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu3x5SZrMHo


If enough people agree with you, then those GLBT-friendly businesses will flourish, and those that aren't won't. Eventually, those businesses that won't serve the GLBT crowd will either go out of business because there aren't enough customers, change their stance to stay in business, or continue to do business with a smaller customer base.

That's the way it works, and it will work, if you let it. Let the internet work it's wonders disseminating information at incredible speeds, and you'll get a real response from those who could be customers.






JVoV -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/26/2015 6:23:31 PM)

Businesses have the right to refuse service to any person or group, for any reason not specifically mentioned in either the Federal Civil Rights Act or the Americans with Disabilities Act.

Until hearts and laws are changed, on a national level, the GLBT community can be freely discriminated against in most states. California is one of few exceptions.




Kirata -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/26/2015 6:58:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

I look forward to the 1st case where an Arab/Muslin-owned establishment denies service to a Jew or an Xian. Then we'll really see the caca hit the fan!

Give that man a cigar. The "game" I was talking about is passing laws that pervert the principle of equality under the law. Hate crime laws allow harsher punishments for harming a member of a protected class, but only for harming one of these special snowflakes, not for harming anybody else! In this case Christians are playing for special status, so they don't have to obey the same laws as everybody else. But it's the same old game of passing laws that pervert the principle of equality under the law. Only this one is a wide open Pandora's box.

K.






JVoV -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/26/2015 7:33:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

I look forward to the 1st case where an Arab/Muslin-owned establishment denies service to a Jew or an Xian. Then we'll really see the caca hit the fan!

Give that man a cigar. The "game" I was talking about is passing laws that pervert the principle of equality under the law. Hate crime laws allow harsher punishments for harming a member of a protected class, but only for harming one of these special snowflakes, not for harming anybody else! In this case Christians are playing for special status, so they don't have to obey the same laws as everybody else. But it's the same old game of passing laws that pervert the principle of equality under the law. Only this one is a wide open Pandora's box.

K.






Hate crime laws have become necessary for a multitude of reasons.

From https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/249
Under the Notes tab.

Findings:
“(5) A prominent characteristic of a violent crime motivated by bias is that it devastates not just the actual victim and the family and friends of the victim, but frequently savages the community sharing the traits that caused the victim to be selected.
“(6) Such violence substantially affects interstate commerce in many ways, including the following:
“(A) The movement of members of targeted groups is impeded, and members of such groups are forced to move across State lines to escape the incidence or risk of such violence.
“(B) Members of targeted groups are prevented from purchasing goods and services, obtaining or sustaining employment, or participating in other commercial activity.




BamaD -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/26/2015 7:43:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

I look forward to the 1st case where an Arab/Muslin-owned establishment denies service to a Jew or an Xian. Then we'll really see the caca hit the fan!



You realize that religious discrimination is prohibited.




UnholyBear -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/26/2015 7:59:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

I look forward to the 1st case where an Arab/Muslin-owned establishment denies service to a Jew or an Xian. Then we'll really see the caca hit the fan!





So I guess a business owner who is LGBT then has the right to refuse service to heterosexuals?




slvemike4u -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/26/2015 8:02:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

I look forward to the 1st case where an Arab/Muslin-owned establishment denies service to a Jew or an Xian. Then we'll really see the caca hit the fan!



You realize that religious discrimination is prohibited.

You realize that sexual discrimination is encouraged .




JVoV -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/26/2015 8:06:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: UnholyBear


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

I look forward to the 1st case where an Arab/Muslin-owned establishment denies service to a Jew or an Xian. Then we'll really see the caca hit the fan!





So I guess a business owner who is LGBT then has the right to refuse service to heterosexuals?


And Republicans.




dcnovice -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/26/2015 8:14:22 PM)

quote:

Hate crime laws have become necessary for a multitude of reasons.

If memory serves, one reason was because localities and states sometimes overlooked crimes against members of particular groups.

The most dramatic example, of course, was the lynching of African Americans. Sherrilyn Ifill, U. Md. law professor and author of On the Courthouse Lawn: Confronting the Legacy of Lynching in the 21st Century (New York: Beacon Press, 2007), said in an interview: "We have this history in which people could be killed publicly with thousands of people on the street watching and no one ever convicted. There are nearly 5,000 lynchings in the history of the United States and from communities all over the country, from Price, Utah to Duluth, Minnesota to the Eastern Shore of Maryland to the Deep South, and yet we have no record of actual convictions for lynching itself."

In my own lifetime, I remember reading about a judge who sentenced a killer to 30 years rather than life because his victims were gay:

DALLAS, Dec. 16 [1988]— A judge here has said he gave an 18-year-old murderer a more lenient sentence than prosecutors had sought because the two victims were homosexual and, the judge said, they would not have been killed ''if they hadn't been cruising the streets picking up teen-age boys.''

''I put prostitutes and gays at about the same level,'' he said, ''and I'd be hard put to give somebody life for killing a prostitute.'' He said he stood by his decision to impose a 30-year sentence rather than life in prison on the defendant, Richard Lee Bednarski. ''I did what I thought was right,'' he said.


http://www.nytimes.com/1988/12/17/us/texas-judge-eases-sentence-for-killer-of-2-homosexuals.html

Those are two examples of the "special snowflakes" such laws were passed to protect.




Dvr22999874 -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/26/2015 8:15:21 PM)

This may sound like a dumb question but do you have 'Right of Refusal' laws over there, whereby management or business owners reserve the right to refuse service to anybody ? We have it here but it's usually reserved for drunks and troublemakers but the way the notices are worded, they could equally apply to anybody.




JVoV -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/26/2015 8:20:56 PM)

Federal law still only applies in cases of gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability if the assailant(s) or victim(s) meet other criteria.

Like if one of them travels to another state.




Gauge -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/26/2015 8:21:37 PM)

This is a fast reply.

A long time ago I was listening to a comedian do their act. They said something that is apropos... this is how I remember the quote:

There are a bunch of people who are against Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday being a National holiday. You have to be one racist motherfucker not to want a day off of work.


As a business owner, you have to be some kind of stupid bigot not to take money from a paying customer.




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