RE: Trump's Immigration Plan

RE: Trump's Immigration Plan (Full Version)

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DesideriScuri -> RE: Trump's Immigration Plan (8/21/2015 1:42:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey I support Legal Immigration The more the merrier. Illegals tho should be mine field finders fighting ISIS I don't know that I agree with Cloudboy's analysis, but I certainly don't agree that illegals should be mine field finders. There are plenty of illegals whose only crime was illegal entry. While I don't think they should be granted legal status in the US, I don't think they should be abused, either. Is it abuse or a preventative step. Abuse.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Trump's Immigration Plan (8/21/2015 1:47:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez quote: Which do you support: literal translation of the law (the words used are what matter), or the spirit of the law (the intent of those that wrote the law)? Don't you feel that both are necessary? We know that the slaves were illegal aliens. We know the framers of these three amendments were not unaware of the issues involved. Notice how native Americans are dealt with in these three amendments. The framers wanted to tailor the law to the need. That need being the enfranchisement of the offspring of illegal aliens while at the same time preventing the enfranchisement of native Americans. No, I don't feel both are necessary, especially when they oppose each other. I don't know that slaves were illegal aliens. Please cite your source demonstrating that we knew them as illegals.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Trump's Immigration Plan (8/21/2015 1:57:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez quote: Now, I'm wondering if "Sanctuary Cities" are running afoul of the Federal law you cited. Can you imagine the shit mess they'd be in?!? Do you feel that would be more productive than the feds going after employers? Why can't they go after both? quote: ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez quote: People who choose to not play by the rules that are set, should not get to jump in front of those who are doing it correctly. It's a slap in the face of those that follow the rules. How many Mexicans followed the rules last year? I give up, how many?

Obedientboy1961 -> RE: Trump's Immigration Plan (8/21/2015 3:51:24 PM)
A wall along a 2200 mile border. Attack dogs, say one every 100 yards....that's a lot of dogs, dog food, dog shit and veterinarians. Land mines along the wall...well that's just stupid. So is Trump and so is anybody who buys into his bullshit.

KenDckey -> RE: Trump's Immigration Plan (8/21/2015 4:03:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey I support Legal Immigration The more the merrier. Illegals tho should be mine field finders fighting ISIS I don't know that I agree with Cloudboy's analysis, but I certainly don't agree that illegals should be mine field finders. There are plenty of illegals whose only crime was illegal entry. While I don't think they should be granted legal status in the US, I don't think they should be abused, either. Is it abuse or a preventative step. Abuse. Damn I thought the loss of a few quickly being blown up would be much better than those lost in the desert

BamaD -> RE: Trump's Immigration Plan (8/21/2015 6:04:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez quote: Now, I'm wondering if "Sanctuary Cities" are running afoul of the Federal law you cited. Can you imagine the shit mess they'd be in?!? Do you feel that would be more productive than the feds going after employers? Why can't they go after both? quote: ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez quote: People who choose to not play by the rules that are set, should not get to jump in front of those who are doing it correctly. It's a slap in the face of those that follow the rules. How many Mexicans followed the rules last year? I give up, how many? Who said instead of going after the employers? I would think that this would be in addition to enforcing the laws against the employers.

cloudboy -> RE: Trump's Immigration Plan (8/21/2015 7:23:20 PM)
Trump’s immigration policy could spell doom for the GOP by George Will It has come to this: The GOP, formerly the party of Lincoln and ostensibly the party of liberty and limited government, is being defined by clamors for a mass roundup and deportation of millions of human beings. To will an end is to will the means for the end, so the Republican clamors are also for the requisite expansion of government’s size and coercive powers. • “They,” the approximately 11.3 million illegal immigrants (down from 12.2 million in 2007), have these attributes: Eighty-eight percent have been here at least five years. Of the 62 percent who have been here at least 10 years, about 45 percent own their own homes. About half have children who were born here and hence are citizens. Dara Lind of Vox reports that at least 4.5 million children who are citizens have at least one parent who is an illegal immigrant. • Trump evidently plans to deport almost 10 percent of California’s workers and 13 percent of that state’s K-12 students. He is, however, at his most Republican when he honors family values: He proposes to deport intact families, including children who are citizens. “We have to keep the families together,” he says, “but they have to go.” Trump would deport everyone, then “have an expedited way of getting them [“the good ones”; “when somebody is terrific”] back.” Big Brother government will identify the “good” and “terrific” from among the wretched refuse of other teeming shores. • Trump proposes seizing money that illegal immigrants from Mexico try to send home. This might involve sacrificing mail privacy, but desperate times require desperate measures. He would vastly enlarge the federal government’s enforcement apparatus, but he who praises single-payer health-care systems and favors vast eminent domain powers has never made a fetish of small government.

cloudboy -> RE: Trump's Immigration Plan (8/21/2015 7:27:15 PM)
• Today’s big government finds running Amtrak too large a challenge, and Trump’s roundup would be about 94 times larger than the wartime internment of 117,000 persons of Japanese descent. But Trump wants America to think big. The big costs, in decades and dollars (hundreds of billions), of Trump’s project could be reduced if, say, the targets were required to sew yellow patches on their clothing to advertise their coming expulsion. There is precedent. • Birthright citizenship, established by the 14th Amendment and opposed by Trump and his emulators, accords with America’s natural-rights doctrine. Arguably, this policy is unwise. But is this an argument Republicans should foment in the toxic atmosphere Trump has created, an argument that would injure the next Republican nominee even more than Mitt Romney injured himself? Romney, who advocated making illegal immigrants’ lives so unpleasant they would “self-deport,” might be president if he had received 10 points more than his 27 percent of the Hispanic vote.

KenDckey -> RE: Trump's Immigration Plan (8/21/2015 7:50:32 PM)
quote: 14th Amendment Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State. Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may, by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability. Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void. Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article Section 1 is the birthright provision. It can be argued that the jurisdiction portion of Section 1 is what can keep babies of illegals from being citizens. They belong to their parent country/nation. http://www.nationalreview.com/birthright-citizenship-not-mandated-by-constitution Even Samoans are not US Citizens. http://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/internet/opinions.nsf/A927D0D5D8A8FB0B85257E5B004F530D/$file/13-5272-1555940.pdf and they have been a US Territory with their own congressman for a long time now. So the kids are illegals who need to go thru the appropriate process. They should not be allowed to anchor their law breaking parents

cloudboy -> RE: Trump's Immigration Plan (8/21/2015 7:57:40 PM)
You are a wingnut. Try living in the real world. The land mine idea makes you a lunatic. Did you even read the ^^^ George Will Article or not? The GOP has forfeited the executive. Game over.

Thegunnysez -> RE: Trump's Immigration Plan (8/21/2015 8:00:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey quote: Gunny How would a civil forfeiture law be utilized against someone who has committed a misdemeanor? The police use it against the innocent to take their money and possessions on mere suspession No...The police do that to the ignorant. If you have a real lawyer it takes a court order to seize your property. quote: so it would apply to those that are breaking the law as well. The innocent have to pay money to lawyers to get even a portion of it back if they do at all. So why not Because it is illegal.

Sanity -> RE: Trump's Immigration Plan (8/21/2015 8:22:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy You are a wingnut. Try living in the real world. The land mine idea makes you a lunatic. Did you even read the ^^^ George Will Article or not? The GOP has forfeited the executive. Game over. Hardly... [:D] [img]https://thisistwitchy.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/hillary-clinton-shades.png[/img] Jerry Brown: Hillary Clinton's Email Scandal "Like a Vampire"

Thegunnysez -> RE: Trump's Immigration Plan (8/21/2015 8:22:21 PM)
quote: No, I don't feel both are necessary, especially when they oppose each other. How would it be possible for them to oppose one another? Correct me if I am mistaken but when a law is proposed isn't there debate(in committee and on the floor)and finally a vote is taken and the votes are tallied. Wouldn't you agree that knowledge of the process from start to finish would be more useful than simply the tally? quote: I don't know that slaves were illegal aliens. Please cite your source demonstrating that we knew them as illegals. How shall we define illegal alien? I think it fair to say that a citizen cannot be an illegal alien. Also fair to say that a tourist could not be an illegal alien as they would have had official papers (passport/visa) declaring their intent to return to their country of origin. They clearly are not citizens, as defined by the constitution. They are clearly not tourist, as they hold no passport nor visa. They have no status except that of non-citizen,non tourist...if one is in the U.S. today and they are not a citizen nor a document holder of some sort one is an illegal alien.

KenDckey -> RE: Trump's Immigration Plan (8/21/2015 8:23:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey quote: Gunny How would a civil forfeiture law be utilized against someone who has committed a misdemeanor? The police use it against the innocent to take their money and possessions on mere suspession No...The police do that to the ignorant. If you have a real lawyer it takes a court order to seize your property. quote: so it would apply to those that are breaking the law as well. The innocent have to pay money to lawyers to get even a portion of it back if they do at all. So why not Because it is illegal. https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police-practices/asset-forfeiture-abuse From the more left leaning ACLU it happens all the time. I agree it shouldn't be legal but it does happen.

Thegunnysez -> RE: Trump's Immigration Plan (8/21/2015 9:04:35 PM)
quote: Why can't they go after both? If we read the harboring definition it does not fit what the city does. These cities are simply refusing to do the feds job for them and waving a red flag (sanctuary city) saying "we have more important things to do than arrest and detain misdemeanor offenders for you we have more felons than we have space for".

Thegunnysez -> RE: Trump's Immigration Plan (8/21/2015 9:11:22 PM)
quote: I give up, how many? Would you agree that the quota for Mexico was filled?

Thegunnysez -> RE: Trump's Immigration Plan (8/21/2015 9:20:27 PM)
quote: From the more left leaning ACLU it happens all the time. I agree it shouldn't be legal but it does happen. As I mentioned above a real lawyer will prevent that. If you do not know your rights they will do as they choose. Of course a good lawyer will also sue them (the cops personally,the police department,the city,the county etc.)into the poor house.

Thegunnysez -> RE: Trump's Immigration Plan (8/21/2015 9:28:23 PM)
quote: Even Samoans are not US Citizens. http://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/internet/opinions.nsf/A927D0D5D8A8FB0B85257E5B004F530D/$file/13-5272-1555940.pdf and they have been a US Territory with their own congressman for a long time now. Their congressman is not allowed to vote on anything. Samoans are not citizens because as the document mentions the treaty that ceded sovereignty of Samoa to the U.S. denied Samoans U.S. citizenship. However Samoans may travel to the U.S. at will and any children born here are U.S. citizens. By the same token other territories of the U.S. are citizens.

Thegunnysez -> RE: Trump's Immigration Plan (8/21/2015 9:37:05 PM)
quote: So the kids are illegals who need to go thru the appropriate process. They should not be allowed to anchor their law breaking parents The link you provided for the Samoan thing contains a refutation of that argument. That if you are here you are subject to the jurisdiction. The clear case of allegiance in the native American case showed him to be a legal resident alien living within the boundaries of the U.S. but within his tribal reservation to whom he owed primary allegiance. As to their law breaking parents...you do realize that it is a misdemeanor? Are there other misdemeanors that that you feel this passionately about?

KenDckey -> RE: Trump's Immigration Plan (8/22/2015 3:31:53 AM)
which proves the point. being born in the US does not guarantee citizenship.

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