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RE: Don't be a creeper - 12/1/2015 1:17:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I honestly think you believe women look in their closet and go "Oh, what can I wear that will cause countless men to harrass me, stare at me, and potentially follow me down the street making lewd comments."

I guess it's time for women to start dressing in potato sacks and thick sweats underneath as to not inconvenience men that - god forbid - have to behave unlike Neanderthals.

We could all band together and order a bunch of burkas and in the summer die of heat stroke, maybe we should also order lead plates to squash our tits flat so there is no hint of shape at all, after all we wouldn't want to inconvenience men...

Crumpets, as for your argument that girls dress provocatively, uhhhh, you know the dress codes go for boys as well, and obviously it is unheard of that boys stuff socks into their crotch region, or those hair bands wearing spandex ever padding themselves out a bit...

In fact there was a comic group who formed a band called Bad News where they were pictured on the outside of the cover with spandex and massive crotches, on the inside they were without pants

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(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 12/1/2015 2:13:10 PM

stef

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets

I don't think women will ever understand that their dress is perceived by others exactly how they mean it to be perceived, whether they consciously realize that or not.

I don't think you'll ever get a clue.

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 12/1/2015 2:28:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Crumpets needs to read this:
http://ask.metafilter.com/166426/Keep-your-eyes-to-yourself

From the article: "I had a friend who once asked me to come with her to buy a minimizer bra because she just couldn't take it any more. She wanted me there so I could help her buy the bra that smushed her boobs the most. She thought it would help."

There's a brief mention of looking (politely) vs. staring or leering, but most women experience the leering or staring, and men feel as if it is THEIR right since - after all - women dress a certain way.

A woman is expected to dress sharp in a corporate workspace. Sure, you can cover your boobs, flatten them, wear long skirts -- and look like an unfashionable idiot with a lack of style. Instead, men can grab their sack and man up and not act like idiots.

I am NOT going to change the way I dress for men. Like a lot of women who are not young and slutty, and as a woman with ample cleavage that I do NOT show off, I am sick of men making excuses for their inability to deal. And to be honest it's an excuse anyway. Men like to look. They think they are owed it. They could give two shits. That's why so many are labeled creepers.

Akasha

Up until my mid 20's I was obsessed with getting a boob job, not the enlargement kind but reduction, not due to physical problems, simply due to to the way men looked at them, most people go like "wow big" when I say they are 30/32F they aren't, if my chest was a size 38 they'd be a C or D, perfectly normal, they just appear bigger due to my small ribcage, I don't think I ever flaunted them even as a teenager, for ages I walked around in shapeless sweaters with my shoulders hunched forward to hide them.

It's really difficult to describe how leering men and comments make us feel, in a way it felt like being dehumanized, like all I am is a pair of tits, seriously, if a guy now stares blatantly, I will confront him, and to ask him in front of other guys "You seem to stare at my breasts a lot, I take it you've never seen them outside of a magazine and then the pages stuck together..." It usually results in a guy blushing and beating a hasty retreat.

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(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 12/1/2015 3:11:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Sorry, we aren't selling, this isn't Sunset Strip in the evening, we choose to wear what is fashionable, if you sexualize it, it's your choice, we don't force you to

Are you sure you're not forcing sexualization in my face?

Why then, must I ask, if I want to see a football game, that I have to see ladies crotches in my face, whether it's pee wee football, high school football, or, professional football.

I mean, what is the purpose of cheerleaders you might ask?

The real purpose, despite the name, is to give women the chance to shove their boobs and ass in our faces, when what we really want to see is a football game.

I ask a pointed question.

Why is it that 22 men on the field who are running after, blocking, and tackling each other, can manage to keep their crotches from our purview, yet, a dozen women, doing nothing but leading cheers, can't seem to keep their panties out of our face (and that of children!)?

If their dress isn't sexualized, then why is it that cheerleaders all around the country, at every age group, can't keep their panties out of everyone's faces?

NOTE TO MODS: I expressly found pictures of professional football cheerleaders so these are all of age.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 12/1/2015 3:19:51 PM

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Switch the fucking channel then, simple, if you are forced to look at crotches...

I didn't invent cheerleaders, I never was one (we don't have them in Europe) and btw when I was on the swimming and gymnastics team, I didn't wear tight little suits to turn you or any male on, but because it was the standard uniform and we were ordered to wear it by our (male) principal

I don't make you watch football buster, unless you're incapable of using the remote and I influence it with my evil psychic powers, but that's fairly unlikely

_____________________________

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Those who do and those who don't!

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(in reply to crumpets)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 12/1/2015 3:24:01 PM

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ill stop objectifying and sexualizing women as soon as women stop doing it to men. I cant count how many times I have seen women stop to objectify and sensualize the shirtless construction worker or jack hammer operator... Why is it that male models are trim and fit and defined by most women as attractive... Objectification at it's finest

(in reply to crumpets)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 12/1/2015 3:25:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
As for the enforced dress code in schools, we're talking about a bunch of teenagers who would take everything to the hilt, males and females, they are growing up and experiment with clothes. As a teenager I was into the whole punk and goth thing, I don't have a mohawk and multicoloured hair anymore, I grew out of it, it's what happens.

I tend to agree with you on most things, as you're intelligent and balanced.

But I've thought about this for decades, and I don't see at all what you're saying kicks in until a woman becomes much older than her teens, twenties, and thirties.
Of course, if we look at an octogenarian, they're never dressed sexily, so, to your point, there is an age where sense finally kicks in but I think it only starts to kick in when women are in their late forties and early fifties.

Up until then, non-hooker women and hookers alike are both selling the same thing with most of the clothes they consciously choose to wear.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
But thanks for comparing grown women to teenagers who have to be told how to dress, tell you what, I can keep my boobs from falling out of my shirt, how about you worry about your eyes falling into my cleavage? Sounds like a fair deal to me.

Nobody ever slapped me or gave me a dirty look that I can recall, so, I think I keep my eyes on the road.
However, in saying what you said, you are jumping to huge conclusions, that I took pains to outline the boundaries of.

There are boundaries between dressing slutty and dressing appropriately.
There are boundaries between noticing, looking, and leering.

That you automatically assume that I (and by extension, almost all men like I am who have a modicum of logical thought processes) am leering and that you (the plural you) are not dressed provocatively is stretching the boundaries to fit your preconceived notions.

I said the devil is in the details.
Everything depends on what "leering" is to you and what "dressed provocatively" is to me.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 12/1/2015 4:02:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Switch the fucking channel then, simple, if you are forced to look at crotches...

You missed the point entirely.
I happen to LIKE looking at women's crotches.

So, I'm not the one complaining.
You guys are the ones complaining that men are looking longer than you wanted them to.

My point is that most women are being duplicitous when they make that statement.
In fact, it seems that many women find EVERY OPPORTUNITY they can to shove their panties in our faces so that they can appear more interesting to us.

I simply used cheerleaders as an obvious example where families go to a game yet they are forced to see women's crotches because the WOMEN want to show their crotches (otherwise, why do they do it at all football games?).

Certainly a woman's crotch has nothing to do, per se, with football.
Nor tennis.

Why is it that I can wrestle in high school for years for 8 full minutes at a time with another guy, and we both somehow, magically, against all odds, manage to keep our underwear out of the faces of everyone in the bleachers, yet, Maria Sharapova, at age 28, still can't keep her underwear out of our faces when we simply watch a professional tennis match?

Basically, for some women, they INVENT ways to show us their crotches, everywhere and every way they can.

Don't even get me started on a discussion of how women tend to choose Halloween costumes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
I didn't invent cheerleaders, I never was one (we don't have them in Europe) and btw when I was on the swimming and gymnastics team, I didn't wear tight little suits to turn you or any male on, but because it was the standard uniform and we were ordered to wear it by our (male) principal

Well, I didn't invent cheerleaders either.

Yet, I wrestled in junior high and in high school, where we wore what amounted to tights and sleeveless tops buttoned on our bottoms under our shorts. Yet, here we are, an entire two teams of 13 wrestlers, grappling with each other in all sorts of very tight situations, and somehow, miraculously it seems, all 26 of us manage to keep our underwear and nipples out of the view of everyone in the audience.

Yet, the cheerleaders, standing only twenty feet away, can't seem to NOT shove their crotches in the faces of the people in the grandstand.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
I don't make you watch football buster, unless you're incapable of using the remote and I influence it with my evil psychic powers, but that's fairly unlikely

Actually, I don't watch ANY professional sports. I was only making the point that women lie to themselves about WHY they dress the way they dress.

You don't.
But many women do.

You're honest with yourself, and I've seen that you dress tastefully.
Yet, very many women don't.

I could walk through town on any day of the week and I'd be nearly 100% certain of seeing either boobs or panties on women, and almost assuredly 0% chance of seeing the same in men on that same walk.

Why is it that I can wrestle another man for 8 full minutes and keep my underwear out of sight, yet women, in general, can't keep their panties out of plain sight just walking down the street?

All I'm asking is for women to understand their own actions before complaining about men's predictable reactions to their actions.

< Message edited by crumpets -- 12/1/2015 4:20:17 PM >

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 12/1/2015 4:02:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crumpets
I said the devil is in the details.
Everything depends on what "leering" is to you and what "dressed provocatively" is to me.

Nothing 'depends' on anything - this is where you are dead wrong!!!
Regardless of the details and/or what you think....
Anything, and I stress ANYTHING, that makes the target of your attention, no matter how fleeting, to feel uneasy or 'creeped out' or downright leered at or objectified, is just inappropriate behaviour. Period.

It doesn't matter if they are young or old, pretty/attractive or ugly, whether they are dressed provocatively or not (or not dressed at all), if they feel uneasy with what you are doing - it's creepy, unwarranted and inappropriate. It really is as simple as that.

It is NOT the fault of the women that you wrongly attribute to 'showing off' or believing they are doing it for your benefit, it is wholly and completely your WRONG interpretation of societal cues.

You are reading the map upside down and ass-backwards.
The fault is entirely yours and in your mind - not theirs.

You really don't geddit do you.
Your feeble mind can't grasp that it's you in the wrong with your warped mind, not the women.

ETA: those cheerleaders are PAID to show off - to attract more STUPIDLY-MINDED MEN to part with more cash.
And that pic of Maria Sharapova was an unfortunate incident. She didn't do it on purpose or for your benefit!

< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 12/1/2015 4:10:02 PM >

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(in reply to crumpets)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 12/1/2015 4:07:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
It is NOT the fault of the women that you wrongly attribute to 'showing off' or believing they are doing it for your benefit, it is wholly and completely your WRONG interpretation of societal cues.

You are reading the map upside down and ass-backwards.
The fault is entirely yours and in your mind - not theirs.

Heh heh... I knew you would never understand.

Don't feel bad about it.
Logic is too difficult a concept for you to grasp.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 12/1/2015 4:12:59 PM

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My logic is fine.

It's your inept and warped mind at fault.
Most men understand these things.
You don't. You can't.
You just can't grasp how wrong your logic actually is.
It's warped and wrong. Period.

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“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

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(in reply to crumpets)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 12/1/2015 4:21:27 PM

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quote:

Are you sure you're not forcing sexualization in my face?

What difference is what you are saying to my neighbouring country saying women wearing jeans is indecent and are causing men emotional distress. The reason they make woman cover up in baggy things is because, they claim men have no self-control, and women needs to stop flaunting their assets at men, in the case of jeans, which hugs the butt, which cause them to lose control and do something beyond their control?

Are you really saying you are such a man? Like one of those Muslim guys who can't take personal responsibility for your actions?

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 12/1/2015 4:23:46 PM

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Most men are forced to grasp these things or face the wrath or some whiny lil feminist b****.

Anyone with a half a brain can see fact. Fact is we are born with a natural instict to leer at those we find attractive. This is true of both men and women. I have never heard a woman call it leering when she is dressed in a turtleneck aMr sone git stares... Only when she is dressed provocatively. Why? because she assumes why the man is leering relates to her attire. she realizes its how she is dressed. See men and women both leer and it's 100 percent normal.... What's not normal is dressing in clothing that one finds sexy and complaining when others find it sexy and take notice

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 12/1/2015 4:25:53 PM

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quote:

I have never heard a woman call it leering when she is dressed in a turtleneck aMr sone git stares...

You got to be kidding me. I've definitely seen women with huge boobs in a turtle neck being leered at. Men notice big boobs like no body's business.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/1/2015 4:26:37 PM >

(in reply to SweerbutMental)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 12/1/2015 4:27:01 PM

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we have to live with our tits, wether we are young, old, pretty or plain, fat or skinny, 24 hours a day 365 days a year for our entire life after puberty. Wether we have big tits, small tits, lopsided tits, huge tits, bee stings on shoulder blades the whole 9 yards.
We not only see them, feel them, touch them, let them breathe the open air
Half the population have them. Or will have them.

But how dare we enjoy our OWN sexuality and expect the other half of the population not to think he has the right to grope, ogle, touch, pinch, and slaver over.
How dare we.
You poor men are only victims and not responsible...that right there is creepy, dumb and pathetic reasoning.
The fact that you have only young pretty women shown in your examples is an indication of your bias.

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(in reply to crumpets)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 12/1/2015 4:30:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stef
I don't think you'll ever get a clue.

Many times, I've pulled up to a gas pump and asked the person filling up next to me why they chose the gas that they chose.

Almost invariably, they said they put in the high-octane rated fuel because, they felt, it was "better" gas, or, if they were putting in the low octane rated fuel , they said that they put in the "good stuff" periodically, to keep their engine clean and running well.

I used to try to explain to them what an octane rating was, to show them the fallacy of their beliefs, but, eventually I gave up.
Basically, anyone who inherently feels that high octane rated fuels are better than lower-rated fuels, doesn't have the mental capacity to understand the truth.

It's the same here.
I happen to understand things about you that you, yourself, feel you understand ... you think you understand ... and, indeed, you are absolutely certain that you understand.

Yet, (many of) you don't understand the logic of what I'm saying.
I may as well be explaining why higher octane rated fuels are far more likely to be worse than lower octane rated fuels for any particular engine.

Remember, I'm not the one complaining.
You (plural you) are the ones complaining.

I never get slapped for leering because I don't leer in the least - nor do I dress so that people would tend to leer at me in the slightest.
So, I'm the innocent one here.
I just happen to understand what is really going on better than most people do.

Just as I completely understand octane ratings better than most people do, I just happen to understand the logic of your actions and motives most likely far better than you understand them yourself.

That may sound haughty, but, it's you who needs to get a clue because you're (plural) the ones complaining about the predictable reactions to your actions.
Not me.

I'm just explaining the obvious to you just as I would explain an octane rating to you, which is, to me, as obvious as the sticker on the pump itself (yet, few people actually understand the logic of the octane ratings).

< Message edited by crumpets -- 12/1/2015 4:37:10 PM >

(in reply to stef)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 12/1/2015 4:32:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

I have never heard a woman call it leering when she is dressed in a turtleneck aMr sone git stares...

You got to be kidding me. I've definitely seen women with huge boobs in a turtle neck being leered at. Men notice big boobs like no body's business.

We'll goodness its hard to chime in when such generations are made, so are you saying all men like big boobs or that only men who like big boobs leer.... I prefer smaller myself so perhaps that's the problem? Small berated women are not insulted unless they dress a certain why?

You do I hope see the complete ignorance of your claims now. I have nothing more to add. You just case in pointed everything I was going to argue.

< Message edited by SweerbutMental -- 12/1/2015 4:35:09 PM >

(in reply to Greta75)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 12/1/2015 4:34:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SweerbutMental

Most men are forced to grasp these things or face the wrath or some whiny lil feminist b****.

Anyone with a half a brain can see fact. Fact is we are born with a natural instict to leer at those we find attractive. This is true of both men and women. I have never heard a woman call it leering when she is dressed in a turtleneck aMr sone git stares... Only when she is dressed provocatively. Why? because she assumes why the man is leering relates to her attire. she realizes its how she is dressed. See men and women both leer and it's 100 percent normal.... What's not normal is dressing in clothing that one finds sexy and complaining when others find it sexy and take notice

Actually.... no.

Decent men don't do what you claim is "a natural instict to leer at those we find attractive".
We just don't because we KNOW it's not appropriate and unnerving.
Many Muslim men will leer at a woman baring just her face even if everything else is well covered.
It has fuck-all to do with how the woman is dressed.

Only stupid and inept men who can't grasp societal cues get it completely ass-backwards and think it's 'normal' and 'natural' to leer and objectify.

They are only a small step away from committing a rape - they are already doing that it their feeble pea-brained minds.

I think these men should be strung up with razor wire by the balls and left to rot!!

_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

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(in reply to SweerbutMental)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 12/1/2015 4:42:40 PM

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I fixed this for you so that others dont need to claw out their eyeballs.

quote:

Well goodness, its hard to chime in when such generalizations are made, so are you saying all men look at big boobs or that only men who like big boobs leer.... I prefer smaller myself so perhaps that's the problem? Small breasted women are not insulted unless they dress a certain way?

You do, I hope see the complete ignorance of your claims now. I have nothing more to add. You just case in pointed everything I was going to argue.(bad grammar)

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(in reply to SweerbutMental)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 12/1/2015 4:42:57 PM

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Funny I think femists who fight for years to be able to dress provocatively and then bitch at men for looking or feminists who tell these girls to stop dressing that way because it is feeding into the sexualization of women and rape culture.. these women should all just fall off the earth as they fail at understanding human instict and believe laws of nature should not apply to men... We should rise above what comes normal.. I am sure google can direct you to the nearest cliff

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

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