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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/29/2015 9:45:57 PM

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I remember many years ago, the landlord of a pub in the village I lived in in England, rigged mikes from the ladies-room to speakers in the bar ( there was only one bar in that pub)..........it was a low move but a real eye-opener ( or should that be ear-opener ?) and I think it made a number of guys take a good look at themselves and a number of women to be very careful of what they said in places they thought were private.
It couldn't happen today I guess for fear of somebody taking legal action but I would guess it is still remembered with more than a little embarrassment by some of the people who were there.

(in reply to crumpets)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/29/2015 10:39:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamlady
You say the 'vast majority' of men do not, and I stated 'the way men often do.' Since this IS a matter of perception, who are you to determine what constitutes the validity of a woman's emotional response to perceived harassment? The harasser, the dude who can't take no for an answer?
Try cocktail waitressing your way through college or working as a female bartender, and then come back on here to report your findings.

I took his meaning, in relation to this specific point, to be that anecdotal evidence or personal feeling does not necessarily reflect reality... or at least, a general trend experienced by all or even many.

At the beginning of your reply you dismissed him, saying "You know this because. . . you're a woman?"... but neither are you "All women", so you are only marginally more qualified to declare the validity, or invalidity, of a proposed cultural phenomenon.

I think it is always reasonable to ask ourselves if our personal experience applies to everyone before declaring an epidemic.

In case you hadn't noticed, OP's link is entirely composed of anecdotal evidence. This is also known as empirical evidence.
If you have a problem with the content of what was posted on the reddit: Ask Women forum, and expected something other than anecdotal (mostly first-person) accounts, then you are on the wrong thread.

If you want to share your own anecdotal account(s) from your perspective as a man, then feel free to do so without having another poster come along to say that you don't represent ALL men.
This in no way should negate what others might have to say from their own perspective, nor should your qualifications in whatever capacity as they might possibly relate to a specific topic from the vantage point of pertinence.

What exactly IS your pertinent vantage point on how certain typical behaviors by some men can creep women out from your own personal perspective as a man?
If you have any helpful advice to give your fellow man on how not to come across to women as "that creepy guy," then perhaps you can share it with us instead of taking cheap shots at a woman posting on an woman's issue topic.

DreamLady

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(in reply to Bhruic)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/29/2015 11:18:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko
Does that make our plight any less deserving of attention? No, not to me. I do not appreciate feeling creeped out, thanks. In fact, I get downright fucking scared sometimes. But, it doesn't make it any more deserving of attention, either. What I see and hear out there is an awful lot about how other people need to change so that women who feel victimized won't feel victimized any longer.

The reason why there is a tendency to feel more protective towards women, is also the same as why there is more tendency to feel more protective towards children and elderly people.

Because, generally, these 3 categories are generally physically weaker.

If a man is stalked by a creepy woman, unless she seriously is larger than him by many times, most of the time, I trust the man can defend himself.

But as women, when someone is much stronger physically, we can't over-power him by our wits. When it comes to sheer strength, we will lose. Of course we are scared.

So sometimes even if the man truly didn't mean any harm, but if his behaviour leads us to believe he does mean some harm, we would naturally feel afraid and alarmed by it.

And in an ideal world, we hope to never have to feel this way, like always feel safe around men, but it's not an ideal world. So yea, campaigns to educate men on etiquette with women, is probably always gonna continue.

I considered myself a very very strong woman. And I'm also trained in self-defense. I did an experiment with my x-husband once. I told him, I gonna wear, tight skinny jeans and t-shirt, basically something hard to get rape in, as it's hard to tear the clothes off.

And I am gonna fight him with all my might. And his goal is to penetrate me. I told him, his not allowed to use restrains at all. He has to do it by pure physical force. And he also is not allowed to hit me. Just purely by his strength, how his gonna get to penetrate me.

I didn't take it easy on him and really gave him my full fight. I was confident, he'd never be able to do it. I was shock from that experience how helpless I was, in a real situation, if the man wanted to really use his strength on you, he could win. My x-husband successfully "raped" me. Despite me kicking and smacking him, I gave him my best fight, to test the theory. What he did was exhaust the hell out of me, until I got weaker and weaker in my struggles, as these things take alot of energy, you really lose strength constantly fighting to defend yourself. And the fight was long but successful on his end in the end.

My x-husband was not as athletic than me. Infact, I was fitter than him. I work out way more and in many play love making, I imagined myself stronger than him but he was just giving way to me. So that made the result even more shocking to me. How strong men can be when they really want to show you their full strength. I am not even a light, small petite woman. I'm big and strong.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 11/29/2015 11:35:39 PM >

(in reply to Kaliko)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/30/2015 6:17:34 AM

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I'm going to skip quoting and just try to do some comments that will bounce off of what some others have said. Here's how I see some things.

The link in the original post itself boils down to a number of people talking about their personal experiences. It's their interpretation of things that happened to them. Even if some posters think it's exaggerated or there might be a percentage that might not be telling the truth, at least some of it should be taken at face value. There's really no advantage in all of those people making things up (you have to ask yourself what would be the payoff or the point of that) to try to create some kind of conspiracy theory or promote something that doesn't exist. The answer to "these things are happening" isn't some kind of "no they don't" retort. To me, that just lacks common sense.

I also don't think there's anything wrong with saying it might be a good idea to reduce your risk. We're a bunch of kinky/alternative lifestyle people who talk about reducing our risks when it comes to play (risk aware consensual kink) all of the time, so there's no reason that can't apply to other situations. Advising folks to lock their doors, be aware of their surroundings when walking to their car, or wearing a condom to reduce their risks isn't exactly a bad idea. Nobody is going to eliminate all of their risks because yes, some people do bad things and that's the world we live in. It's worth recognizing that people may be attempting to do everything 'right' to reduce their risks and some things happen anyway.

Clothes. There have been more comments about clothes and the term wardrobe malfunction since Janet Jackson did the halftime show at the Super Bowl. If one side is saying that what a person is wearing is where some unwanted attention comes from, you have to also realize it happens the other way, too. You don't have to be wearing a low cut shirt and a high cut skirt to be receiving unwanted attention. A person would have to be oblivious not to know this. Males probably don't have the same rate of unwanted attention because they are wearing a pair a jeans and a reasonable shirt but it happens to women often enough. Huge generalization here but I'm going for it anyway. Women get a lot of unwanted comments about their body anyway, so we don't want to hear it. Males don't tend to get many comments about their body, so when they get what they feel is positive, they interpret it differently and like it. Males are more visual of the two genders, so that plays a part.

It really isn't consequential why the attention isn't wanted or if it would be wanted if another person was doing it. Have people really forgotten all of those threads in the past started by males who complained or wondered why they kept getting annoyed by other men even though the were straight? (Usually because they have a pic up that's going to appeal to men but not to women. Wrong bait scenario.) Had the comments about how they had a nice penis or a tight ass came from women, rather than men, they might not have complained at all. Kind of the same thing, isn't it?

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(in reply to Greta75)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/30/2015 1:18:45 PM

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FR

I always see a category mistake showing up in convos about women getting attacked and the way they're dressed, how they act, etc. There is A) a moral argument about whether women should be free from attack, no matter how they're dressed and how they act. I think most, including me, would say 'no', they shouldn't be attacked. There is also B) a pragmatic/strategic argument about how best a woman might dress and act in order to keep herself safe from attack. These are two separate arguments. Views from A) have no relevance to B), and vice versa. I think it's wise to keep them separate and in particular watch for those who'll deliberately mix up the two.

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/30/2015 1:22:32 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

I remember many years ago, the landlord of a pub in the village I lived in in England, rigged mikes from the ladies-room to speakers in the bar ( there was only one bar in that pub)..........it was a low move but a real eye-opener ( or should that be ear-opener ?) and I think it made a number of guys take a good look at themselves and a number of women to be very careful of what they said in places they thought were private.
It couldn't happen today I guess for fear of somebody taking legal action but I would guess it is still remembered with more than a little embarrassment by some of the people who were there.

[Light relief]

Much less dodgy, but still funny ... I heard of a pub, once, in which the landlord had installed a shop-window dummy of a man wearing a kilt in the corridor from the bar to the ladies' toilet. Attached to the kilt was a cord than ran to a bell in the bar. Every time a woman walked down the corridor to the toilet and lifted the kilt to check what the dummy was wearing (if anything) underneath, the bell would ring.

[/Light relief]

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/30/2015 1:32:08 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

I always see a category mistake showing up in convos about women getting attacked and the way they're dressed, how they act, etc. There is A) a moral argument about whether women should be free from attack, no matter how they're dressed and how they act. I think most, including me, would say 'no', they shouldn't be attacked. There is also B) a pragmatic/strategic argument about how best a woman might dress and act in order to keep herself safe from attack. These are two separate arguments. Views from A) have no relevance to B), and vice versa. I think it's wise to keep them separate and in particular watch for those who'll deliberately mix up the two.

I believe - and mind you this is a personal opinion - that how a woman dresses has little to do with attacks/rape, that is the usual BS argument trying to blame the victim, I also don't think rape has much to do with sexual desire and a guy's just so highly sexed that he can't help himself, but it has more to do with violence and anger, because let's speak plainly for a moment, a guy forcing himself into a woman who's as dry as the Sahara, where's the pleasure of that? Seriously I was always under the impression penises are sensitive (unlike some dicks on the forums) and it must hurt like effing hell, just like it hurts us and I haven't heard much of lube carrying rapists...

When I was out partying, there might be a grope, there might be comments and stuff, but there was never an assault, I talked to other women about it (again, it's not scientific evidence but it would be somewhat weird if they all have the same experience and there is nothing behind it) whenever there was a direct sexual assault, we felt somewhat "off" before it happened, more vulnerable, preoccupied with something else. So I think the majority of rapists sense it and go for it, again less for sexual pleasure but for the control, the ultimate humiliation to force a woman to endure the penetration she doesn't want.

It would be interesting to look up the statistics, because if it would be all about clothes and how women dress, then in winter there wouldn't be any rapes, unless there are rapists with a fetish for big coats and wooly hats...

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/30/2015 1:54:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

I always see a category mistake showing up in convos about women getting attacked and the way they're dressed, how they act, etc. There is A) a moral argument about whether women should be free from attack, no matter how they're dressed and how they act. I think most, including me, would say 'no', they shouldn't be attacked. There is also B) a pragmatic/strategic argument about how best a woman might dress and act in order to keep herself safe from attack. These are two separate arguments. Views from A) have no relevance to B), and vice versa. I think it's wise to keep them separate and in particular watch for those who'll deliberately mix up the two.

I believe - and mind you this is a personal opinion - that how a woman dresses has little to do with attacks/rape, that is the usual BS argument trying to blame the victim, I also don't think rape has much to do with sexual desire and a guy's just so highly sexed that he can't help himself, but it has more to do with violence and anger, because let's speak plainly for a moment, a guy forcing himself into a woman who's as dry as the Sahara, where's the pleasure of that? Seriously I was always under the impression penises are sensitive (unlike some dicks on the forums) and it must hurt like effing hell, just like it hurts us and I haven't heard much of lube carrying rapists...

When I was out partying, there might be a grope, there might be comments and stuff, but there was never an assault, I talked to other women about it (again, it's not scientific evidence but it would be somewhat weird if they all have the same experience and there is nothing behind it) whenever there was a direct sexual assault, we felt somewhat "off" before it happened, more vulnerable, preoccupied with something else. So I think the majority of rapists sense it and go for it, again less for sexual pleasure but for the control, the ultimate humiliation to force a woman to endure the penetration she doesn't want.

It would be interesting to look up the statistics, because if it would be all about clothes and how women dress, then in winter there wouldn't be any rapes, unless there are rapists with a fetish for big coats and wooly hats...

Wait a minute. You're totally destroying our ability to disbelieve prison rape. Ya know, those slutty little dresses the male prisoners wear... they're just asking for it.

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(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/30/2015 2:05:13 PM

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ET, good point about the prison rape but people being locked up together, pent up sexual frustration, etc. I don't think it translates to the outside world, outside anybody can get rid of DSP (deadly sperm buildup) almost anywhere in the world, there will always be prostitution and it comes with various price tags, and the gals use lube so no feeling like your member rubs against sandpaper...

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/30/2015 2:14:39 PM

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quote:

I believe - and mind you this is a personal opinion - that how a woman dresses has little to do with attacks/rape, that is the usual BS argument trying to blame the victim, I also don't think rape has much to do with sexual desire and a guy's just so highly sexed that he can't help himself, but it has more to do with violence and anger, because let's speak plainly for a moment, a guy forcing himself into a woman who's as dry as the Sahara, where's the pleasure of that? Seriously I was always under the impression penises are sensitive (unlike some dicks on the forums) and it must hurt like effing hell, just like it hurts us and I haven't heard much of lube carrying rapists...

You know - apart from the idea that rape is about aggression rather than sex - I'd not really thought of those things before. Interesting. But ... as for dicks being sensitive - I'm not so sure. Blokes are generally a lot rougher with them than women often realise when they're wanking. On the other hand, I'd be surprised if you'd never seen a man wanking before ....

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/30/2015 2:26:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

ET, good point about the prison rape but people being locked up together, pent up sexual frustration, etc. I don't think it translates to the outside world, outside anybody can get rid of DSP (deadly sperm buildup) almost anywhere in the world, there will always be prostitution and it comes with various price tags, and the gals use lube so no feeling like your member rubs against sandpaper...

It keeps coming back to power, not sex. Most people don't want to look at "Rape" for what it is. They'd rather think about female "rape" as something separate or different than the act of cruel power that it is.

It doesn't change the fact that "rape" is about power, control, and taking what you want... and taking the power away from another. Power is an aphrodisiac, however, it's the willing surrender of power that turns me on, not ripping it from another. I am all about volunteers not victims.

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/30/2015 2:28:36 PM

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Can someone define what a creeper is? A definition which doesn't depend on the two parties' relative attractiveness please...

I've been representing the devil in more than a few real life conversations on precisely this topic, and the notion of the man being creepy or not seems to depend rather more on his resemblance, or lack thereof, to Brad Pitt or Johnny Depp than any action he has taken.

Would you care to define your terms?

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/30/2015 2:30:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre

Can someone define what a creeper is? A definition which doesn't depend on the two parties' relative attractiveness please...

I've been representing the devil in more than a few real life conversations on precisely this topic, and the notion of the man being creepy or not seems to depend rather more on his resemblance, or lack thereof, to Brad Pitt or Johnny Depp than any action he has taken.

Would you care to define your terms?

I will define it for you just as soon as I get a picture of those pretty little panties you're wearing, cutie pie ;)

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Semper fidelis (which sometimes feels like a burden)

(in reply to ManOeuvre)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/30/2015 2:33:33 PM

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I have seen guys wanking and one of my fave ways of being the sweet little sadist that I am was mixing a bit of salt into the lube I kindly offered them, I don't mean a harsh grip on the shaft or any of that, I mean the head where the nerve endings are rubbing against something that is very dry, it must feel like sandpaper and unless rapists are masochists in disguise, I always wondered how they keep their hardon.

Not having a penis, I can't directly relate to the feeling, I tried to discuss it with H but he just said "I wouldn't want to rape a woman anyway, movement is nice but not if that movement is her trying to run away, plus I don't want to worry about her cutting my bits off when I'm done and pass out...." So he wasn't a massive help.

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(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/30/2015 2:35:43 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

ET, good point about the prison rape but people being locked up together, pent up sexual frustration, etc. I don't think it translates to the outside world, outside anybody can get rid of DSP (deadly sperm buildup) almost anywhere in the world, there will always be prostitution and it comes with various price tags, and the gals use lube so no feeling like your member rubs against sandpaper...

It keeps coming back to power, not sex. Most people don't want to look at "Rape" for what it is. They'd rather think about female "rape" as something separate or different than the act of cruel power that it is.

It doesn't change the fact that "rape" is about power, control, and taking what you want... and taking the power away from another. Power is an aphrodisiac, however, it's the willing surrender of power that turns me on, not ripping it from another. I am all about volunteers not victims.

That makes total sense

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/30/2015 2:40:08 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre

Can someone define what a creeper is? A definition which doesn't depend on the two parties' relative attractiveness please...

I've been representing the devil in more than a few real life conversations on precisely this topic, and the notion of the man being creepy or not seems to depend rather more on his resemblance, or lack thereof, to Brad Pitt or Johnny Depp than any action he has taken.

Would you care to define your terms?

Can you point out where we discussed anything about how a guy looks versus what he does? You should find plenty of definitions in this thread of what women consider to be creepy behaviour (you know like leering, making comments that are sexual, touching without asking), would you please explain how you managed to miss all those clues?

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to ManOeuvre)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/30/2015 2:42:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre
Can someone define what a creeper is? A definition which doesn't depend on the two parties' relative attractiveness please...

I've been representing the devil in more than a few real life conversations on precisely this topic, and the notion of the man being creepy or not seems to depend rather more on his resemblance, or lack thereof, to Brad Pitt or Johnny Depp than any action he has taken.

Would you care to define your terms?

Quick stab. A person causing fear or unease due to unwanted, prolonged, or socially inappropriate attention and/or advances.

ETA - Ah, dangit. I went for send too quick.

The "if the person was attractive, they wouldn't be considered a creeper" position doesn't hold water. It doesn't matter why the advances/attention was unwanted. It's not a 'hey, I'm attractive, so I can't be creepy' competition.

< Message edited by LadyPact -- 11/30/2015 2:46:19 PM >

_____________________________

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to ManOeuvre)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/30/2015 4:07:12 PM

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FR~

I'm still waiting on that panty pic from Mr. CutiePie.

Aaaaaannnndddd now you know what a creeper is. Don't applaud, just send money.

< Message edited by ExiledTyrant -- 11/30/2015 4:20:04 PM >

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RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/30/2015 4:29:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre

Can someone define what a creeper is? A definition which doesn't depend on the two parties' relative attractiveness please...

I've been representing the devil in more than a few real life conversations on precisely this topic, and the notion of the man being creepy or not seems to depend rather more on his resemblance, or lack thereof, to Brad Pitt or Johnny Depp than any action he has taken.

Would you care to define your terms?

Can you point out where we discussed anything about how a guy looks versus what he does? You should find plenty of definitions in this thread of what women consider to be creepy behaviour (you know like leering, making comments that are sexual, touching without asking), would you please explain how you managed to miss all those clues?

I think the bottom line, Lady C, is that the creeper either doesn't know, or doesn't want to know, what effect he's having. He has his own fantasy world, and that's what he's living in.

It's really very, very easy to work out when you're being creepy or not, once you've learned that other people, including the target of your affections, have *their own* feelings that *exist outside of your own head*. It boils down to caring about other people's feelings, rather than bullshitting yourself that you care about them - that's all.

_____________________________

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(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Don't be a creeper - 11/30/2015 4:31:25 PM

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From: Exiled
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre

Can someone define what a creeper is? A definition which doesn't depend on the two parties' relative attractiveness please...

I've been representing the devil in more than a few real life conversations on precisely this topic, and the notion of the man being creepy or not seems to depend rather more on his resemblance, or lack thereof, to Brad Pitt or Johnny Depp than any action he has taken.

Would you care to define your terms?

Can you point out where we discussed anything about how a guy looks versus what he does? You should find plenty of definitions in this thread of what women consider to be creepy behaviour (you know like leering, making comments that are sexual, touching without asking), would you please explain how you managed to miss all those clues?

I think the bottom line, Lady C, is that the creeper either doesn't know, or doesn't want to know, what effect he's having. He has his own fantasy world, and that's what he's living in.

It's really very, very easy to work out when you're being creepy or not, once you've learned that other people, including the target of your affections, have *their own* feelings that *exist outside of your own head*. It boils down to caring about other people's feelings, rather than bullshitting yourself that you care about them - that's all.

I would've asked for a pic of your panties, but you would've giggled while you sent it, SICKO!!!

_____________________________

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To lead, first follow: Aurelius, Epictetus, Descartes, Sun Tzu, to name a few.

Semper fidelis (which sometimes feels like a burden)

(in reply to PeonForHer)

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