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RE: Second hand smoke - 7/19/2006 5:41:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

It is utterly impossible for second hand smoke to be more dangerous to people than to the smoker himself.

Wrong. Ask anyone whose asthma is triggered by smoke, they will beg to differ with you.

But since the majority of asthmas are thought to be caused by traffic fumes and other environmental pollutants put out by industry, why is there no campaign against these hazards?

I couldn't work out a woman I had a relationship with who always belly ached about smoking but would happily sit in her car in heavy traffic causing other people to have asthma attacks.

(in reply to KatyLied)

RE: Second hand smoke - 7/19/2006 5:44:07 AM

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G'morning all:

To EDNW; Guess someone failed to read the links provided.

To meatcleaver; to a degree, I agree with you. I would never enter a smoking bar. It's not the environment I'd wish be in. You're also taking it out of context. No one proposed to convert areas/establishments specified so that smokers can enjoy their fix.

The Wikipedia link provided does discuss other carcinogens in the health section. Since this thread focuses on tobacco smoke though, let's stick to topic, shall we? The OP was more focused on ranting about the price of his cigarettes due to the astronomical taxes than the health issues.

I find it ironic as hell on several levels that someone complains about the pollution generated by cars when he is a smoker. *chuckles*

Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...

Bella

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RE: Second hand smoke - 7/19/2006 6:03:57 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GddssBella

I find it ironic as hell on several levels that someone complains about the pollution generated by cars when he is a smoker. *chuckles*

Bella

I'm simply complaining because those people that don't smoke but drive and bitch about smokers are hypocrites and a bigger hazard to the environment than a smoker.

Bloody mindedness and smugness I guess.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/19/2006 6:04:34 AM >

(in reply to GddssBella)

RE: Second hand smoke - 7/19/2006 6:11:37 AM

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just because someone pulls you up for smoking doesn't mean they don't also find industry-spewed carcinogens equally offensive...

and don't forget, o benevolent smokers, you're also sucking up your fair share of those same taxes you so genreously donate in health care - your own and others affected by second hand smoke.

jmo, mug (who doesn't smoke, doesn't drive and is in the wrong part of her cycle to be argued with... so nurr)

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Second hand smoke - 7/19/2006 6:21:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mugwump

just because someone pulls you up for smoking doesn't mean they don't also find industry-spewed carcinogens equally offensive...

and don't forget, o benevolent smokers, you're also sucking up your fair share of those same taxes you so genreously donate in health care - your own and others affected by second hand smoke.

jmo, mug (who doesn't smoke, doesn't drive and is in the wrong part of her cycle to be argued with... so nurr)

Now I can't speak for the US but in Britain, smokers pay much more in tax than any cost in healthcare they cause as well as paying their tax towards healthcare. If we are being cost specific, smokers should get a refund in their tax returns!

Car drivers on the other hand are subsidised because they do not pay the full price in the cost of healthcare due to car accidents, illness caused by their polluting the atmosphere, the full price of the infrastructure they require and the general degradation of the environment they cause.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/19/2006 6:23:31 AM >

(in reply to mugwump)

RE: Second hand smoke - 7/19/2006 8:46:07 AM

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(searching despirately for my rat's ass..) "Sorry, can't find it.. Just can't give one right now"

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RE: Second hand smoke - 7/19/2006 8:56:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

One thing to bear in mind which I pointed out on another thread. The average smoker reduces thier life by three years. The average unhappy person will have a reduce their average life by nine years. So the message is, smoke and be happy and you are still six years ahead of the unhappy non-smoker.

And let's face it. Those health freaks are angst ridden hypochondriacs that want to cheat death but the only certainty in life apart from taxes, is death.

George Carlin.“Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a long period of time."

My stepdad died at 67, but he was very ill the last decade of his life. It is the very doctors that are getting attacked for stating second hand smoke kills that people who smoke are going to count on to save their ass....

I had been around cigarettes all my life. I never smelled things as they truly smell, I never breathed the way that nature intended, and since I quit 18 months ago I am happier than I have ever been in my life because I smell things, taste things, and I can breath... I lost 50 lbs because I just felt well enough to exercise. I do not even think this 3 yr stat is true, but I can tell you I have seen enough people on oxygen over the years to tell you lifespan is only one measure of the impact of cigarettes... quality of your life is the other way you pay.

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(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Second hand smoke - 7/19/2006 9:03:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

It is utterly impossible for second hand smoke to be more dangerous to people than to the smoker himself.

Wrong. Ask anyone whose asthma is triggered by smoke, they will beg to differ with you.

But since the majority of asthmas are thought to be caused by traffic fumes and other environmental pollutants put out by industry, why is there no campaign against these hazards?

I couldn't work out a woman I had a relationship with who always belly ached about smoking but would happily sit in her car in heavy traffic causing other people to have asthma attacks.

So because other things trigger asthma too, it is ok to light up around a 10 year old that has a tobacco trigger in a restaurant? Asthma has different triggers for different people, many are triggered by tobacco. I find your logic flawed in stating that you should be allowed to spew fumes because you have no care for those you impact. As an exsmoker, I never inflicted my smoke on anyone unwilling to be around it. We have strict laws in California about all emissions, why not on ciggies?

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(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Second hand smoke - 7/19/2006 9:15:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

So because other things trigger asthma too, it is ok to light up around a 10 year old that has a tobacco trigger in a restaurant? Asthma has different triggers for different people, many are triggered by tobacco. I find your logic flawed in stating that you should be allowed to spew fumes because you have no care for those you impact. As an exsmoker, I never inflicted my smoke on anyone unwilling to be around it. We have strict laws in California about all emissions, why not on ciggies?

I think you will find in an earlier post I have no problem with smoke free establishments and areas. My problem is that people want all establishments to be smoke free if they use them or not, while causing great amounts of pollution themselves. It all smacks of people wanting power over other people to say what they can and can't do. If a restuarant is smoke free fine, if it is a restuarant where you can smoke fine. If it is clearly sign posted as to whether an establishment is smoke free or not, people can make informed choices. Then if a parent takes a 10 year old child into an establishment where smoking is allowed, it is the fault of the parent. Choices. Which is more than I have when I ride my bike through traffic fumes which is worse for people than cigarette smoke.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Second hand smoke - 7/19/2006 9:23:48 AM

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I have little trouble with smoking in bars. I do not go to them though...lol. I have major trouble with smoking in restaurants. I was a waitress before smoking was outlawed in Californian restaurants. The ventilation was never good enough. Owners wanted to appeal to as many people as they could and were worried that smokers wouldn't eat out, that wasn't true of course, it didn't hurt their bottom line. If a restaurant has a patio, smokers can use it here. Since most of the time the weather is decent, I do not see how this impacts smokers in this state all that badly.

I have been to states that allowed smoking in restaurants, and even as a smoker I thought they were just disgusting after living in a state that bans it. It is like shitting where one eats... I wouldn't do that either. I guess you can tell I didn't smoke in my home for years before I actually quit because of my son's health.

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RE: Second hand smoke - 7/19/2006 9:53:09 AM

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This is not aimed at you juliaocean but is a general pot.

Children's asthma has been increasing while smoking and smokey environments have been in steep decline. Therefore one can assume smoking is not the major cause of children's asthma.

The real cause of children's asthma is probaly as I have pointed out, increase traffic pollution and modern furniture and building materials. Also one thing that has been suggested is overly sanitized domestic conditions when children are small. The reason this has been suggested is because the children of affluent parents who tend to take hygeine beyond the nth degree are more likely to have children suffer from asthma than poor families who tend to have a more realistic perspective because of other demands on the household. The theory being, that children don't build up enough immunity when they are small.

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RE: Second hand smoke - 7/19/2006 10:07:30 AM

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Are you aware that asthma, for many people, is an illness of allergy? It is linked to eczema and other allergies (pollen, food, etc)? It isn't all about pollution in the environment. Many people with asthma are sensitive to many things, it's a long list that happens to include smoke.

quote:

Therefore one can assume smoking is not the major cause of children's asthma.

There is a difference between cause and trigger.

Info on childhood asthma:
http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=22782

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RE: Second hand smoke - 7/19/2006 10:14:00 AM

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Cigarette smoke triggered my son's asthma.. .. Exactly right katylied

On edit, kids that grow up in smoke filled rooms have more illnesses in general than kids that grow up in smoke free environments.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 7/19/2006 10:15:25 AM >

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RE: Second hand smoke - 7/19/2006 10:56:02 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Cigarette smoke triggered my son's asthma.. .. Exactly right katylied

On edit, kids that grow up in smoke filled rooms have more illnesses in general than kids that grow up in smoke free environments.

Hmm I was talking about this to a friend a while ago. My generation were brought up in smoke filled rooms. All adults seemed to smoke when I was young. Smoking was de rigor. However, I and my siblings were never ill nor was my friend's and his siblings or anyone we can remember. From what we can remember the average child amongst us only suffered from the normal child illnesses, chicken pox etc. However, our children and their generation (of the children I know) who haven't been brought up in smoke filled rooms have suffered from far more ailments than us. I can't remember anyone I went to school with suffering from asthma. It was something I grew aware of as my daughter grew up. I've never smoked in the home and still don't, I go on the balcony but I smoke very little anyway. It's just the ban smoking lobby that wind me up.

grammar

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/19/2006 10:57:29 AM >

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RE: Second hand smoke - 7/19/2006 11:08:58 AM

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Except we weren't just talking about the ban smoking lobby, drug company conspiracies, guerilla attacks on cigar bars, outdated medical knowledge, or the fact that there might be worse things out there...
We were also talking about some prick who blows smoke in your face while you are trying to enoy a meal, or gives your kid an asthma attack, or expects you to pay your own dry cleaning bills for clothes saturated by their exhaust.... and then whinges out one of the above excuses when called on their bad behavior.

Bringing up those other issues is merely a red herring as to why it should be OK for those who smoke to refuse to act considerately.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Second hand smoke - 7/19/2006 11:13:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

We were also talking about some prick who blows smoke in your face while you are trying to enoy a meal, or gives your kid an asthma attack, or expects you to pay your own dry cleaning bills for clothes saturated by their exhaust.... and then whinges out one of the above excuses when called on their bad behavior.

I don't ask the pricks who stand in traffic jams with their engines running who cover me in fumes and trigger asthma in kids, to pay for my dry cleaning. You can choose your restuarant but there is no choice about roads and the pollution as far as I can see.

It's the same fucking deal!!

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RE: Second hand smoke - 7/19/2006 11:13:35 AM

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Im not talking ancedotal evidence, meatcleaver. I had extremely bad allergies, always have had them. I know many people who have bad allegies, some with asthma. Asthma is on the rise partially because it was unreported in previous generations. The only ones that were diagnosed were usually those that had life threatening cases of it. My son's doc didn't want to document his asthma because it would make it harder for him to be in the military if it were documented... I insisted it be documented anyways.

If you look at the evidence of smoking v nonsmoking homes, kids get sick more often in homes with smokers. Kids of smokers are more prone to allergies (look at me for example), kids with smoking parents are more likely to have asthma too. Their little lungs can't take it. Next you will be saying that smoking while pregnant has no ill side effects. I can tell you I tried everything I could to quit when I was pregnant and I just couldn't seem to do it. I would quit for days at a time, I would cut back to only a couple a day. I worried about it, and felt lucky that he was normal birth weight (actually over average). That doesn't mitigate the many women that have given birth premature low birth weight babies.

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RE: Second hand smoke - 7/19/2006 11:17:51 AM

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Thing is - pollution occurs. You want your lovely rubber outfit? Your fucking up the environment. You want to see at night? You are fucking up the environment. You smoke? Your fucking up the environment.

All these things are infringing on other peoples rights. And you can be angry all you want that people use double standards and moan about smoking, but drive their MPVs carrying one person. But smoking is a drug. Like coffee, like any addictive substance. It isn't a necessity (it is arguable that oil, fuel, fumes are not necessary but then again, it will take time to alter all these - time and patience)Smoking is NOT a necessity in everyday life and it doesn't have to 'happen'. If you think it is - then you have a serious addiction. And it is the addiction that is a concern because it is an addiction that effects others.

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RE: Second hand smoke - 7/19/2006 11:25:46 AM

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I'm just going from personal experience that my generation having been brought up in smoked filled homes I can't think of one person of my generation I know that suffers from astma. I can think of many children from my daughter's generation that do.

Tried to google statistics but as always you find more companies wanting to sell you treatment than meaningful stats.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Second hand smoke - 7/19/2006 11:30:20 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Thing is - pollution occurs. You want your lovely rubber outfit? Your fucking up the environment. You want to see at night? You are fucking up the environment. You smoke? Your fucking up the environment.

All these things are infringing on other peoples rights. And you can be angry all you want that people use double standards and moan about smoking, but drive their MPVs carrying one person. But smoking is a drug. Like coffee, like any addictive substance. It isn't a necessity (it is arguable that oil, fuel, fumes are not necessary but then again, it will take time to alter all these - time and patience)Smoking is NOT a necessity in everyday life and it doesn't have to 'happen'. If you think it is - then you have a serious addiction. And it is the addiction that is a concern because it is an addiction that effects others.

Peace and Rapture

I think a government survey showed 40% of all car journeys are not necessary. people will drive 100 metres to the local store than walk. Lack of exercise has also been cited for an increase in children's asthma.

If people want to be little Hitlers and impose there rights on others, others can do the same. Cars are an addiction that is far far worse than smoking!

(in reply to darkinshadows)

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