Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this?

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Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 4:37:50 PM

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Let's stop for a second and consider the reasons behind Israel's recent deployment, bombings, etc....

The confrontation began July 12 with a Hezbollah's raid inside Israel in which two Isreali soldiers were captured.....EDIT: the day before the kidnapping of the soldiers, Israel kidnapped two Palestinians (And here we are now, July 22) Since then:
LEBANON: At least 372 have been killed and 1,482 wounded, according to Lebanese security officials. Among them are 20 Lebanese army soldiers and at least eight Hezbollah guerrillas. Among the civilian deaths are 8 Canadians, 2 Kuwaiti nationals, 1 Iraqi, 1 Sri Lankan, 1 Jordanian. Among the latest deaths Saturday: • Two Hezbollah guerrillas in clashes at border. • One in strike on Lebanese Broadcasting Corp.'s transmission center in Fatqa, northeast of Beirut. • Two in strike in southern village of Kafra. IN ISRAEL: 34 Israelis have been killed, including 19 members of the miltary, according to authorities. More than nine soldiers have been wounded, and 231 civilians, according to rescue officials.

Did Israel go too far? Deploying and bombing over 2 soliders captured is worth the price of what's happening now?

Consider....
Respectfully,
Irishbynature

< Message edited by irishbynature -- 7/22/2006 5:03:14 PM >

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What seems nasty, painful, or evil, can become a source of beauty, joy, and strength, for those who have the vision to recognize it as such. Henry Miller

RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 4:52:42 PM

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An emphatic NO! What you have forgot Irish was that the day before the kidnapping of the soldiers, Israel kidnapped two Palestinians which one assume are incarcerated with the other 8,000 Palestinians held by the Israelis.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 5:01:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
An emphatic NO! What you have forgot Irish was that the day before the kidnapping of the soldiers, Israel kidnapped two Palestinians which one assume are incarcerated with the other 8,000 Palestinians held by the Israelis.

Thanks meatcleaver...I was not aware of that. Thanks for adding it to the thread!!!! I added your information to the OP.

< Message edited by irishbynature -- 7/22/2006 5:04:07 PM >

_____________________________

What seems nasty, painful, or evil, can become a source of beauty, joy, and strength, for those who have the vision to recognize it as such. Henry Miller

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 5:05:30 PM

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I think the two Israelis soldiers were the last straw. Did they have the right? No not in our eyes but I'm sure in their eyes what they are doing is right. These peoples have been fighting amongst themselves for so long that I'm not sure they will ever be able to live together in peace. We can hope that they will, but I wouldn't hold my breath on it.

~Lashra

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“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 5:13:44 PM

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It appears that Britain is starting to change its mind. One of Blair's ministers has denounced Israel on TV and said he hoped America (Bush) understood what was happening in Lebanon. Blair has been unwilling or probably unable to criticize the minister. I suspect the pressure is mounting on Blair to break with Bush. Not that Blair can do anything about the situation in Lebanon but it all adds to pressure for something to be done.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 5:17:47 PM

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Does Isreal have the right? Well I am sure we all have an opinion - I know that I do. I look at the longer term. Is it right that they have been continuously bombarded, blasted, killed, etc since long before their 1948 independence by the UN. The current targets are the group that is currently doing the damage to their country - hmmmmmmm sounds like us and Al Quieda. We have had more people people killed in Lebanon than you reported. could it be something like we should also attack because of it? Who knows. If they are a subset of Al Quieda then maybe. Why is it that the statistics don't include the number of people killed, missing and wounded in Isreal? Is this an attempt at being anti-isreal? Oh and yes I have been to Lebanon - beautiful country. And yes, I was in the mid-east during the 1967 Mid-east war. Scared the heck out of me. And No I am not Jewish no pro anything but American. Just want to make sure that all the statistics are reported and since I don't know any of them I won't pretend to quote any.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 5:23:11 PM

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The statistics are in a wide variety of respectable publications and easily accessed on the net. I've checked the stats in the news of five countries and all have similar figures.

(in reply to KenDckey)

RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 5:26:08 PM

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Do those sources go back to the beginning or sttart at some make believe date and ignore those instances of the past? I have a hard time believing that only 19 Israelis have been killed since pre1948 at the hands of Heztbola or however you spell it.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 5:30:50 PM

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If you want to know the stats from the beginning I suggest you google Nabka and start there.

But if you want to know the total number of deaths since 1948 that will take a search but there have been far more Palestinian deaths than Israeli deaths. Three or four to one I believe but without checking myself first I won't be held to that figure.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/22/2006 5:31:23 PM >

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 5:35:38 PM

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Unfortunately nowadays might makes right.

I just hope they remember the Dimora power plant in the Negev desert so that we can have a huge glass parking lot. I am sick of it, if it weren't for our dependence on oil, they could just slaughter each other and we could just deal with who is left.

I recuse myself from this thread at this point, nothing wrong with it, but I am going to probably cross the line into anti-Semitism even though I am not an anti-Semite.I have no problem with Palestinians, Arabs, Libyans, Syrians and so forth.

Actually if Israel has it's way, they WILL be the only Semites left.

I can't go on, and get involved too much with this thread, I am already in two about this subject. Tell the ADL and the JDL to look for me there.

Enjoy your freedom if you have it, and if you do, don't blow it by coming to the US.

I am really surprised that someone hasn't hacked this site like they did to sweetchastity's forum. Somebody just didn't like them, think about the shit we are talking about here. People have died over speaking out like this. Jailed for decades if they are lucky. Look up the name Ernst Zundel if you don't believe me.

Basicaly I am fed up with the whole thing, so I'll pay the three bucks for a gallon of gas and whatever taxes they can get out of me, but people will not listen. It is a waste of my time. I have no hate for the politicians, Jews and non Jews. None at all. I hate them no more than a cockroach that I step on.

You like them ? If I took over the country Jews would be treated well, with a first class ride to Israel. Go.

The politicians who sold out to them ? (or anyone, and I mean who even met with a lobbyist) DEATH by slow torture, and I mean really inhumane torture. I'd give new meaning to the words in Revelations "Men shall seek death but not find it". I will redifine the word holocaust for those who betrayed us. See, I can't fault Jews for operating in their own best interest, but when our politicians do not act in the best interest of this country, that is treason.

Look up the word pogrom if you can find it. Why were there so many throughout history ? Once you know what that means, then you realize that the lack of pogroms in modern times are the reason that Israel can do anything they want with impunity.

Those 40 UN resolutions condemnning their actions mean nothing to them. There are sure to be more soon, but they still mean nothing.

Some people want to flame me a bit when I talk about certain things. Well, even if their eyesight is 20/20, their mind-sight needs a hell of alot of correction.

Nice post, it will probably blossom into a 200 post monster in no time, and that is good. Thing is I just can't take on another one. If you want to play I'll be over in one of the other Israel threads. It takes time to read them and then if one has something to say, to write it.

I'll come back if you don't hit 20 posts by tomorrow.

T

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 5:42:35 PM

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Oh I have no doubt that there are possibly more palestinan deaths than israeli deaths since 1948. That wasn't the point. The statistics reported started when Isreal decided to take action, not the enemies of isreal took action.   Seems rather lopsided to me and I had to speak out about it. What is it that they say about figures..... Oh I forget but what I hate is getting half truths created by selectively reporting facts.

And now for my opinion on whether they should have invaded.   Not any of my business.   Probably not most of the peoples business that I know and ever met (and since I personally shipped overr 500,000 people to Viet Nam) that is a heck of a lot of people. It is my opinion that facts (I have no reason to disbelieve what was reported) distorted (by not reporting 100% of incidents) to color a picture lends discredit upon those that quote them.

It is my opinion that most Americans believe tthat they (being US morals) are right and the rest of the world will comply with our way of life or else we will do whatever we have to do to smear them or destroy them. If that means distorting facts to achieve this aim, then that is ok in the eyes of most.   I have spent time in lots of countries on 3 contenants defending our right to do that.

so to summarize.   Is it out business?   Are the statistics being quoted total and complete or do they meet someone's aim? My opinion is that we should worry more about what we are doing and less about what Isreal is doing because it just isn't our business and lends credance to those that try to hurt our country that we are setting policy for other countries

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 5:44:31 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Do those sources go back to the beginning or sttart at some make believe date and ignore those instances of the past? I have a hard time believing that only 19 Israelis have been killed since pre1948 at the hands of Heztbola or however you spell it.

How accurate these figures are I don't know but each year the ratios are roughly what I said in my earlier post, three to four to one, Palestinians being the higher figure. There are stats for the last six years. I doubt there are stats since 1948, you'd have to search and totla them yourself but with about 4-5,000 deaths per year for the last six years, it will be a large total.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict_2004

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 5:46:29 PM

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Ah, the old "disproportionate force" argument. Tell me, since when is it a value, in times of war, to use only those capabilities you possess which match your opponents'? Should the Allies have reduced their military capabilities in World War II to match the capabilities of Germany & Japan? Should America have reduced its fighting capabilities in the Cold War to give the Soviet Union a fighting chance?

What a stupid argument.

Sure Israel uses disproportionate force, and why shouldn't it? It has repeatedly sought peace with its neighbours (the anti-Israel crowd on this forum is quite eager to forget that not only did Israel's prime minister Barak offer Arafat the vast majority of the West Bank and the entire Gaza Strip which Arafat refused, but that Israel has *twice* given up the Sinai Peninsula in exchange for peace with Egypt after wars which Egypt initiated) and those neighbours, in the belief that they can still win and wipe Israel off the map, continually attack it.

What you also choose to ignore is that if Israel wanted to, it could easily wipe out the Palestinians and today, the Lebanese. And yet Israel continues to risk the lives of its own soldiers, particularly in the West Bank, to avoid unnecessary civilian casualties. Israel could easily level Palestinian cities from land and air if it wanted to destroy terrorist outposts, instead, it sends in and risks its ground forces to minimize Palestinian casualties.

One final point, since you folks claim to be so even handed, where are your posts denouncing Hezbollah's occupation of Lebanon? For years this terrorist organization has been operating in Lebanon with aid from Syria and Iran against the wishes of the Lebanese government. The Lebanese civil war has caused the deaths of many more Arabs than the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, and yet, not a single peep.

Sure, you're not anti-Semitic, you just hold Jews up to a different standard than the rest of the world.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 5:46:33 PM

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Meatcleaver

And your point is?

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 5:47:54 PM

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oh I forgot

The Definiation of Politics is the way we conduct war without bloodshead.

The definiation of War is Politics with bloodshead

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 5:51:04 PM

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That an over the top reaction by Israel which is only succeeding in killing innocent civilians and not the terrorists they are supposed to be after should be condemned and pressure put on Israel to stop its offensive.

(in reply to KenDckey)

RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 5:54:39 PM

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Oh so your point is that Isreal has no right to kill innocent civilians in Lebanon but Hetzbolah has the right to kill innocent civilians in Isreal? So therefore Isreal has no right to defend itself because it is ok for Isrealis to be killed? Am I seeing this clearly now?

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 5:54:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cr0ckdile

Ah, the old "disproportionate force" argument. Tell me, since when is it a value, in times of war, to use only those capabilities you possess which match your opponents'? Should the Allies have reduced their military capabilities in World War II to match the capabilities of Germany & Japan? Should America have reduced its fighting capabilities in the Cold War to give the Soviet Union a fighting chance?

What a stupid argument.

Sure Israel uses disproportionate force, and why shouldn't it? It has repeatedly sought peace with its neighbours (the anti-Israel crowd on this forum is quite eager to forget that not only did Israel's prime minister Barak offer Arafat the vast majority of the West Bank and the entire Gaza Strip which Arafat refused, but that Israel has *twice* given up the Sinai Peninsula in exchange for peace with Egypt after wars which Egypt initiated) and those neighbours, in the belief that they can still win and wipe Israel off the map, continually attack it.

What you also choose to ignore is that if Israel wanted to, it could easily wipe out the Palestinians and today, the Lebanese. And yet Israel continues to risk the lives of its own soldiers, particularly in the West Bank, to avoid unnecessary civilian casualties. Israel could easily level Palestinian cities from land and air if it wanted to destroy terrorist outposts, instead, it sends in and risks its ground forces to minimize Palestinian casualties.

One final point, since you folks claim to be so even handed, where are your posts denouncing Hezbollah's occupation of Lebanon? For years this terrorist organization has been operating in Lebanon with aid from Syria and Iran against the wishes of the Lebanese government. The Lebanese civil war has caused the deaths of many more Arabs than the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, and yet, not a single peep.

Sure, you're not anti-Semitic, you just hold Jews up to a different standard than the rest of the world.

Why don't you start by reading your history and particularly Nabka. You will find that Israel was created through terrorism so its a little ironic that it condemns the terrorists it created.

However, people aren't calling for the destruction of Israel but for it to stop its over the top reaction and stop terrorising and targeting civilians while claiming to be targeting terrorists.

(in reply to cr0ckdile)

RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 5:54:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

If you want to know the stats from the beginning I suggest you google Nabka and start there.

But if you want to know the total number of deaths since 1948 that will take a search but there have been far more Palestinian deaths than Israeli deaths. Three or four to one I believe but without checking myself first I won't be held to that figure.

That 'beginning' seems a tad arbitrary, since it would tend to overlook the number of deaths caused by the mufti al-Husseini and something called the 'Final Solution'... some people may still remember that, although it took place a little before 1948.

But remembering past atrocities, or predicting future ones is a justification...I doubt if that is the same as giving anyone 'the right' to engage in war.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 5:56:43 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cr0ckdile

Sure, you're not anti-Semitic, you just hold Jews up to a different standard than the rest of the world.

You will find I am just as vociferous about Iraq as well and I don't think there are any Israelis there.

(in reply to cr0ckdile)

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