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ORIGINAL: Nnanji

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ORIGINAL: itsSIRtou

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ORIGINAL: BoscoX


I know, but there are lurkers here who may not see through the willful ignorance / propaganda she lays down

the "unite the RIGHT(wing)" marchers were there to impose their white version of sharia law including protecting a statue supporting their "history" of traitorous murders, lynching's, & slavery, even though as told by one of u on another thread lee disavowed slavery & personally owned none.

ur willful association with the killers of that woman means u two rockheads are NOT good right-wing people let alone good people or even good human beings.

ur willful wanting to assign the same blame for her death on the victim herself because she just happened to be in the way of a premeditated nazi killer using a 3500 pound high performance car as his weapon to kill & maim those who opposed them, because for once, the right-wing groups didn't have the overwhelming amount of weapons there, also makes u NOT on the side of good people period.

u cant even claim propaganda ..... ur just plain wrong. Just as the majority of Americans feel u are.

Spanky, you bring so much pride to ignits. I'm sure your momma is proud of you.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: itsSIRtou

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
And apparently that these were the good Nazis.

Nazi's = Devil (we don't really disagree on that)
Anyone opposing Nazi's = above wrongdoing (we do disagree on that)

Anyone opposing Nazi's = above wrongdoing on the same level as the nazi's, klan, ect. (we do disagree on that.)
starting with mass beatings and work ur way up to murders and lynching's....

I'm good, thanks. But, completely dismissing bigotry, hate, and violence from one side simply because they oppose the neo-nazi/white supremacist side is completely wrong.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Trump's allocation of equal blame to both sides, (which many of us find so objectionable) relies on the assertion that there were 'good people' alongside the Nazis KKK et al at Charlottesville participating in a 'Unite the Right' march. There weren't any 'good people' marching with the Nazis. Public association with/support for Nazis automatically eliminates anyone meriting the descriptor 'good people'.

And, that's where you're missing the point (you're not alone in this). Trump didn't allocate equal blame for anything on anyone. He said both sides were to blame for the hate, bigotry, and violence. You're assuming it's equal. MM is assuming he's equating the counter-protesters beliefs as being as horrible and despicable as the neo-nazi's beliefs. Neither one of you is correct in that.

Both sides were guilty of hate and violence. The hate and violence should have no place in America (which is another thing he said). How can you disagree with either of those two things? Granted, the second is a belief and not, technically, up for consideration of how factual it is or not. But, both sides bear responsibility for the violence that occurred that day. And, that's what Trump said.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
And apparently that these were the good Nazis.

Nazi's = Devil (we don't really disagree on that)

Anyone opposing Nazi's = above wrongdoing (we do disagree on that)

From where I sit, the point is not whether anyone opposing Nazis can do no wrong. The point is that 'good people' don't associate with Nazis. The reverse of that is equally valid: anyone publicly associating with or supporting Nazis is not a 'good person'.

Trump's allocation of equal blame to both sides, (which many of us find so objectionable) relies on the assertion that there were 'good people' alongside the Nazis KKK et al at Charlottesville participating in a 'Unite the Right' march. There weren't any 'good people' marching with the Nazis. Public association with/support for Nazis automatically eliminates anyone meriting the descriptor 'good people'.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Trump's allocation of equal blame to both sides, (which many of us find so objectionable) relies on the assertion that there were 'good people' alongside the Nazis KKK et al at Charlottesville participating in a 'Unite the Right' march. There weren't any 'good people' marching with the Nazis. Public association with/support for Nazis automatically eliminates anyone meriting the descriptor 'good people'.

And, that's where you're missing the point (you're not alone in this). Trump didn't allocate equal blame for anything on anyone. He said both sides were to blame for the hate, bigotry, and violence. You're assuming it's equal. MM is assuming he's equating the counter-protesters beliefs as being as horrible and despicable as the neo-nazi's beliefs. Neither one of you is correct in that.

Both sides were guilty of hate and violence. The hate and violence should have no place in America (which is another thing he said). How can you disagree with either of those two things? Granted, the second is a belief and not, technically, up for consideration of how factual it is or not. But, both sides bear responsibility for the violence that occurred that day. And, that's what Trump said.

Just being a Nazi is in itself a statement of hate and violence. Nazis marching in public is a public statement of hate and violence, an affront to common decency and a statement of contempt for the values that almost all of us share. That is the statement that Trump should have made, not the wishy washy platitudes and blame-shifting we heard.

Opposing Nazis is not a statement of hate and violence. It is an affirmation of our basic humanity, of the values that almost all of us share.

I completely agree that hate and violence have no role in any industrialised Western democracy, or for that matter, any society anywhere. For mine it automatically follows from that statement that Nazis have no public role to play in any industrialised Western democracy today.

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ORIGINAL: itsSIRtou
I did say I would respectfully disagree with u..... and I do for this reason....
neo-nazi/white supremacist side EARNED the bigotry, hate, and violence they have gotten recently by their own actions from the very inception of their group.
u cant tell me that their legendary raping, lynching, assassinations, murders and mass beatings when the other side didn't have weapons to protect themselves or attack them in similar fashion didn't influence the decision that this time they weren't going to be cannon fodder for the violence of the neo-nazi/white supremacist's??

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the neo-nazi who drove his car into the crowd did so because the neo-nazi/white supremacist groups had no other way to instill fear into the crowd that unexpectedly was more than capable of confronting them with like force.

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Mark My words, DS, this is not going to be the last time u see a car used by neo-nazi/white supremacists at a confrontation.
next time, it'll be unplated, and untraceable. to go along with even bigger, and heavier armed assholes, ....er, I mean neo-nazi/white supremacists.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Trump's allocation of equal blame to both sides, (which many of us find so objectionable) relies on the assertion that there were 'good people' alongside the Nazis KKK et al at Charlottesville participating in a 'Unite the Right' march. There weren't any 'good people' marching with the Nazis. Public association with/support for Nazis automatically eliminates anyone meriting the descriptor 'good people'.

And, that's where you're missing the point (you're not alone in this). Trump didn't allocate equal blame for anything on anyone. He said both sides were to blame for the hate, bigotry, and violence. You're assuming it's equal. MM is assuming he's equating the counter-protesters beliefs as being as horrible and despicable as the neo-nazi's beliefs. Neither one of you is correct in that.
Both sides were guilty of hate and violence. The hate and violence should have no place in America (which is another thing he said). How can you disagree with either of those two things? Granted, the second is a belief and not, technically, up for consideration of how factual it is or not. But, both sides bear responsibility for the violence that occurred that day. And, that's what Trump said.

Just being a Nazi is in itself a statement of hate and violence. Nazis marching in public is a public statement of hate and violence, an affront to common decency and a statement of contempt for the values that almost all of us share. That is the statement that Trump should have made, not the wishy washy platitudes and blame-shifting we heard.

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Opposing Nazis is not a statement of hate and violence. It is an affirmation of our basic humanity, of the values that almost all of us share.

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I completely agree that hate and violence have no role in any industrialised Western democracy, or for that matter, any society anywhere. For mine it automatically follows from that statement that Nazis have no public role to play in any industrialised Western democracy today.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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the neo-nazi who drove his car into the crowd did so because the neo-nazi/white supremacist groups had no other way to instill fear into the crowd that unexpectedly was more than capable of confronting them with like force.

That may be true. I don't know if it is or not. I doubt it was a pre-meditated act. If it was a piece of shit clunker, I'd be more likely to lean towards it being pre-meditated.

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Mark My words, DS, this is not going to be the last time u see a car used by neo-nazi/white supremacists at a confrontation.
next time, it'll be unplated, and untraceable. to go along with even bigger, and heavier armed assholes, ....er, I mean neo-nazi/white supremacists.

Wow. Fish in a barrel time, eh? Okay, I have one... this is not the last time you see two groups who are armed (with firearms and/or other weapons) and geared up for a fight cause havoc at a rally.

Both sides had people armed and geared up for a fight. I'm (pleasantly) shocked that it didn't end in a shoot out. A shit ton of people could have gotten hurt or killed if it had.

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ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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the neo-nazi who drove his car into the crowd did so because the neo-nazi/white supremacist groups had no other way to instill fear into the crowd that unexpectedly was more than capable of confronting them with like force.

That may be true. I don't know if it is or not. I doubt it was a pre-meditated act. If it was a piece of shit clunker, I'd be more likely to lean towards it being pre-meditated.

I don't know DS, there has been evidence released showing that exactly that kind of violence was talked about and encouraged in chat rooms discussing the (then) upcoming protest in Charlottesville.
Well before a white nationalist “Unite the Right” demonstration turned deadly in Charlottesville this month, attendees were planning for violence, according to leaked online chats. In private chat channels, they shared advice on weaponry and tactics, including repeatedly broaching the idea of driving vehicles through opposition crowds. After the vehicular attack which killed counterprotestor Heather Heyer, users of the channel celebrated the event.
http://fortune.com/2017/08/26/charlottesville-violence-leaked-chats/

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Mark My words, DS, this is not going to be the last time u see a car used by neo-nazi/white supremacists at a confrontation.
next time, it'll be unplated, and untraceable. to go along with even bigger, and heavier armed assholes, ....er, I mean neo-nazi/white supremacists.

Wow. Fish in a barrel time, eh? Okay, I have one... this is not the last time you see two groups who are armed (with firearms and/or other weapons) and geared up for a fight cause havoc at a rally.
Both sides had people armed and geared up for a fight. I'm (pleasantly) shocked that it didn't end in a shoot out. A shit ton of people could have gotten hurt or killed if it had.

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Something to think about though, from the first article on the chatrooms:
The records could also have implications for future efforts to organize white supremacist events. While the First Amendment protects the right to speech and assembly for even the most heinous groups and ideas, it does not protect speech if it calls for and is likely to lead to “imminent lawless action.” According to legal experts speaking to Wired, signs of “preparation for illegal activity” could make it more likely that future events organized by related groups could be legally restricted.

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ORIGINAL: Danemora

In fairness though, Nazism did end up being linked to the Holocaust by way of progressing from politics to the Final Solution. It went from being a political movement to genocide. Not just Jews. Gypsies, political prisoners, the disabled, those who were gay, etc. Most people cannot honestly help but think of both when the word Nazi comes up. And maybe we should think of both when we think of one or the other. The whole "Never Forget" concept should be in mind because Nazism did show how a political ideology could slide into an abyss of unspeakable horror. If it can happen there, its no surprise its happening in places like Charlottesville. Only instead of Zyklon B, its vehicles. Scary times for sure.

Racism did lead to horrible atrocities like the brutal death of Emmett Till, lynchings, fireboming churches that killed innocent black children, etc. Or the brutality suffeted by the Freedom Riders at the hands of Bull Connor's thugs.

And sadly things continued on into Charlottesville. Only this time, people arent terrified like they used to be. In some ways, both sides are a train wreck waiting to happen. Brave because everyone should stand up for what they believe in. However no side should resort to violence. It will get uglier for sure. Because sadly most people nowadays resort to violence first, fuck questions now or later.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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the neo-nazi who drove his car into the crowd did so because the neo-nazi/white supremacist groups had no other way to instill fear into the crowd that unexpectedly was more than capable of confronting them with like force.

That may be true. I don't know if it is or not. I doubt it was a pre-meditated act. If it was a piece of shit clunker, I'd be more likely to lean towards it being pre-meditated.

I don't know DS, there has been evidence released showing that exactly that kind of violence was talked about and encouraged in chat rooms discussing the (then) upcoming protest in Charlottesville.
Well before a white nationalist “Unite the Right” demonstration turned deadly in Charlottesville this month, attendees were planning for violence, according to leaked online chats. In private chat channels, they shared advice on weaponry and tactics, including repeatedly broaching the idea of driving vehicles through opposition crowds. After the vehicular attack which killed counterprotestor Heather Heyer, users of the channel celebrated the event.
http://fortune.com/2017/08/26/charlottesville-violence-leaked-chats/

That's speculation, though. It may be accurate. But, it could also be inaccurate. Still, if you wanted to drive a vehicle through opposition crowds, would you take a nice sporty car, a clunker car, or some sort of junk truck/SUV?

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Mark My words, DS, this is not going to be the last time u see a car used by neo-nazi/white supremacists at a confrontation.
next time, it'll be unplated, and untraceable. to go along with even bigger, and heavier armed assholes, ....er, I mean neo-nazi/white supremacists.

Wow. Fish in a barrel time, eh? Okay, I have one... this is not the last time you see two groups who are armed (with firearms and/or other weapons) and geared up for a fight cause havoc at a rally.
Both sides had people armed and geared up for a fight. I'm (pleasantly) shocked that it didn't end in a shoot out. A shit ton of people could have gotten hurt or killed if it had.

That shocked me as well. Even more so now that video has been released of a protester firing his gun at the rally. He didn't hurt anyone, and fired at the ground, I believe. Police were nearby but said they didn't hear it over the noise of the crowd, so there was no response to it, other than people running away.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/richard-preston-arrested-shooting-gun-charlottesville-rally_us_59a20a39e4b06d67e3380e37
Frankly I would have expected a first shot fired to open the floodgates, but it didn't. So pleasantly surprised as well.

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Something to think about though, from the first article on the chatrooms:
The records could also have implications for future efforts to organize white supremacist events. While the First Amendment protects the right to speech and assembly for even the most heinous groups and ideas, it does not protect speech if it calls for and is likely to lead to “imminent lawless action.” According to legal experts speaking to Wired, signs of “preparation for illegal activity” could make it more likely that future events organized by related groups could be legally restricted.

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ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

So Hitler was a hero.
Therefore, Trump.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
That's speculation, though. It may be accurate. But, it could also be inaccurate. Still, if you wanted to drive a vehicle through opposition crowds, would you take a nice sporty car, a clunker car, or some sort of junk truck/SUV?

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ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
That's speculation, though. It may be accurate. But, it could also be inaccurate. Still, if you wanted to drive a vehicle through opposition crowds, would you take a nice sporty car, a clunker car, or some sort of junk truck/SUV?

They are Nazis... is it really such a huge leap to connect them to planned violence?
I get that you don't like what Antifa was doing, but I really hope you don't get so caught up in your argument that you pretend that white supremacists aren't constantly looking for the same violent conflicts that antifa has delivered, or that they are calm or measured, or that they are ever above using extreme violence to achieve their goals.
We are talking about people who form nationwide prison gangs, condone/carry out shooting sprees and terrorism, and regularly dream of overthrowing the government.

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This guy (and Noam Chomsky) tell it like it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dYzr599s9Y

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I'm not convinced that Antifa even realizes who these people are. I mean, maybe they do, but if they do I have no idea why they would want to keep pushing them. They are like children who think they are prepared to go further than they are probably prepared to go. Maybe during the 60s the left was more militant, but that hasn't been the case for decades now... these people are just now learning how to shoot guns, or think waterballoons filled with urine are going to be enough. I can't imagine they are truly as prepared or as numerous as the white nationalists.

The far right has always been obsessed with violence, mostly because they believe they are justified. It is always the right-wingers on these boards who LOVE guns... not just own them, not just know about them-- they LOVE them as much as they would love their children, possibly more. Antifa is tangling with people who actually believe that they are racially, culturally and spiritually superior, and that this entitles them to ownership of the world, something they will always frame as a struggle for survival. Their bible is the Turner Diaries, which is full of racial hatred, terrorism, race wars, global genocide, mass-executions, nuclear warfare, ethnic cleansing and death.

Their goals are far loftier than simply disrupting rallies-- they actually want to bring down the government, wipe other races and religions from the face of the earth, destroy 'degeneracy' and install a brutal military dictatorship. Giving them an excuse to be violent is NOT a good idea... giving Trump an excuse to send in police forces he is currently arming with military-grade weaponry is not a good idea.

The Reichstag Fire happened because of a violent resistance to the Nazis... I know it sounds crazy, but can you really say that this definitely won't escalate to that point?
I know for a fact that Trump would thrive in an unstable society-- precisely because he is willing to commit atrocities, willing to be a 'tough, strong leader'... and when people feel threatened, they turn to vicious tyrants to make them feel safe.
I know we are not at that point and may never get there, but now that a bonafide fascist is in the White House, it is far more likely than it would have been.

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