quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

That’s you. I see nothing dark or twisted in what we do. I have a healthy relationship that includes consensual kinky sex. The fact that it’s an outlier on the bell curve does not make it wrong.

Hell, eating garlic ice cream is an outlier, but people at garlic festivals everywhere do so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

The leathermen I knew, prior to Stonewall, weren’t the way you portray them. In the Village, certainly. But on Fire Island, they were changing partners every month. By the end of the summer, men who started as tops were bottoming and vice versa. Mostly they went out to the inland path to have anonymous sex.

As a teen I went to parties with very few females. At some point I was told the punch was being spiked with acid and the guys were getting naked. That was when I left.

Regardless of what people did then, it has no bearing on you sticking needles in someone’s breasts. The study is about how you feel doing this and after. Does it make you laugh and feel good? Then it’s a positive thing to do. And that’s what leisure activities should do, make you feel relaxed and happier at the end of the day.

That’s also why we call it play and not work.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

I understand your point and it is well put. Thank you for your comprehensive reply. But I have gone golfing and swimming. I just don’t see the semblance between how that made me feel and any BDSM activities. It's like comparing a horror movie to a comedy... sure they are both movies and fun to watch. But they appeal to two different audiences. To sell one as they other would deceptive. Which is what I think about selling BDSM as a leisure activity akin to golfing.

BDSM is not a leisure (use of free time for enjoyment) activity for me. I make time for it… because I make time for my partner, myself and our bond within the framework of our relationship. It is enjoyment indeed, but it is not free time. For some people I imagine it is quite the opposite. Again, don't exclude me or our dark and sexy roots to include them. Paint a picture that includes both.

For me, BDSM is intense, focused, often quite strenuous… an ecstatic sexual and emotional experience that connects me to the deep feelings of my partner. It is bonding. I usually plan the more intense scenes. I take time to set up the gear. I take time to get my slave's mind into a good headspace. Not something I casually do in my free time.

Now a "have you had you spankings today" slap & tickle OTK orgasmic spanking is often quite spontaneous. But no matter how often we do that, it does not fed the S or the M beasts that dwell within us. It is sexy cool. It is fun and it makes us happy, like swimming only better. But it feels more like kink than BDSM, even though there is a maso-gasm.

I can see how going to the munch or a no-sex public dungeon could be like socializing in the clubhouse or at a swim meet. But the social sexual experiences I had do not. We leased the local public Dungeon to make it a closed private party for our BDSM group so we could throw out the rules. So there was full contact sex, blood sport and kerosene fireplay allowed (we had pro fire dancer troop leader w/2 mil insurance so the owner allowed it).

But group topping, sexual contact and gangbangs were part of the public BDSM scene for me since I first started. Like Hellfire in NYC and Hellfire West in Detroit.

-excerpt-
"New York's Hellfire club opened in the underground chambers of the Triangle Building at 28 9th Avenue in 1978. It quickly became famous for its pan-sexual, fetish oriented clientele and featured all manner of chambers, grottos, cages, racks, "glory holes" for anonymous fellatio, every conceivable implement of torture and restraint, and even an old claw-foot bathtub for "golden showers.". In its heyday, just about anything was permitted, just about anything was possible and just about everything happened."
-end excerpt-

It doesn’t seem that different than what your guys were doing, only they were outdoors. Several of us from CollarMe went to Hellfire and liked it.
http://www.collarchat.com/m_3413775/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#3413775

I agree and see your point that the BDSM I practice with my partner makes me “happier at the end of the day.” But I don’t think it would make your average BDSM enthusiast happy. Or that what people like me do is palatable for the masses. Maybe 10% to 20% are maso-gasmic pain sluts or sadists that fall into the sadosexual or sadomasochistic aspects of BDSM. But we are a cornerstone and a firm one. Like M/s protocol rich structures or any military type rank and file aspects, we all stand on our leathermen foundations. And we are part of what makes up BDSM.

I don't see our leathermen roots being as palatable as golf. I feel like I did when SSC was being touted. "Come on in, the water’s fine. It’s safe." Not all of what we do is safe. Not all of it is fine for everyone. Some of it is dark and scary. I think BDSM should have the same image as good horror movies. It can be gruesome, violent, bloody, scary with sub plots, love stories and soft warm moments. If you're a fan of horror movies, it is a thrilling experience. Once you’ve been through a good one, you are hooked for life. But know it is an X rated horror movie, not a PG comedy.

Thank you again for your reply. I think we both see each other's points. This probably breaks down to whether we think BDSM should be inclusive or exclusive. And whether we feel the current modern BDSM image should, in part, reflect the sexual SM "stigma" of its history and SM minority membership or not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

The leathermen I knew, prior to Stonewall, weren’t the way you portray them. In the Village, certainly. But on Fire Island, they were changing partners every month. By the end of the summer, men who started as tops were bottoming and vice versa. Mostly they went out to the inland path to have anonymous sex.

As a teen I went to parties with very few females. At some point I was told the punch was being spiked with acid and the guys were getting naked. That was when I left.

Regardless of what people did then, it has no bearing on you sticking needles in someone’s breasts. The study is about how you feel doing this and after. Does it make you laugh and feel good? Then it’s a positive thing to do. And that’s what leisure activities should do, make you feel relaxed and happier at the end of the day.

That’s also why we call it play and not work.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

THIS IS TOTAL HORSESHIT
“Our findings show, overwhelmingly, that BDSM fits properties of common leisure experience, similar to people who enjoy golf, swimming and attending cultural events,”

Well then, I say they weren't doing it right. I live the leather lifestyle because I would get arrested if I tried to fuck vanilla people. I didn't choose the lifestyle, it chose me and I don't want to remove the stigma.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

His point, as I understand it, is that if the sociologists are reclassifying S&M as a harmless leisure activity like golf then that means it's become more acceptable to the wider surrounding culture, and it has lost the transgressive and deliciously frightening edge that's as big a part of its appeal as anything that it actually involves doing on a physical level.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

THIS IS TOTAL HORSESHIT
“Our findings show, overwhelmingly, that BDSM fits properties of common leisure experience, similar to people who enjoy golf, swimming and attending cultural events,”

Well then, I say they weren't doing it right. I live the leather lifestyle because I would get arrested if I tried to fuck vanilla people. I didn't choose the lifestyle, it chose me and I don't want to remove the stigma.

Um...., I don't understand your point?

Are you saying, you absolutely HATE what you are doing and are miserable that you can't help yourself but be into SM?

Because I could say the same about "swimming" or "tennis". You are born into it.

I hate swimming and I hate tennis. I have been properly coached on both and realise I hated doing those activities and it feels unnatural to me.

For anybody like any sport, it has to bring them pleasure.

I also knew I was into BDSM from birth. But I recognise that, it brought me pleasure.

So SM must have naturally brought you pleasure, whereas, other people can't get pleasure from it.

Just like many people get pleasure from being at the beach but I absolutely hate it. As I hate water and sand.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

Extreme and dangerous sports, particularly those that involve cruelty to animals or breaking the law to do them are a lot less acceptable than bdsm these days, Greta. That's a big part of the problem, unless I'm misreading RS, his beef with all of this is that BDSM just plain isn't all that hardcore anymore, and certainly isn't seen as being so by anybody either either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
So being true to myself and embracing the "sexual deviance" I love so much is why the lifestyle chose me. I didn't wake up one day and say, "hey, I want to be in lifestyle, think I'll try out some BDSM." I was 13 years old when I accepted and embraced my sadosexuality as an asset to explore... and the lifestyle discovered me shortly after.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

Extreme and dangerous sports, particularly those that involve cruelty to animals or breaking the law to do them are a lot less acceptable than bdsm these days, Greta. That's a big part of the problem, unless I'm misreading RS, his beef with all of this is that BDSM just plain isn't all that hardcore anymore, and certainly isn't seen as being so by anybody either either.

Nothing I mentioned involves breaking the law. But they are all legitimate respectable dangerous sports that is life threatening. SM at RS level will always been seen as hardcore. It would be treated as the equivalent of extreme sports. You need very high skill level to indulge in it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

Extreme and dangerous sports, particularly those that involve cruelty to animals or breaking the law to do them are a lot less acceptable than bdsm these days, Greta. That's a big part of the problem, unless I'm misreading RS, his beef with all of this is that BDSM just plain isn't all that hardcore anymore, and certainly isn't seen as being so by anybody either either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
It's to the point there are now groups of non sexual BDSM people. Their only BDSM activity is to go to non sexual public dungeons, volunteer to get flogged, suspended or whatever, get their subspace going and then go home alone. There are online 'slaves' that have never even touched their 'Master' and just run around obeying shit someone tells them to do on the computer... go tell a leatherman that BDSM has nothing to do with "sexual deviance" and take picture of his face for me, I'll want to see that reaction.