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Agressive Males? - 12/3/2017 7:03:14 AM   
Milesnmiles


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When I was raised men were to be the aggressor and women were to be passive.

The old “men chase and women choose” concept.

But now it seems that if the “chase” is more than a onetime offer of dinner, it is sexual harassment. (In the work place asking twice can legally be considered sexual harassment)

So I guess my question is; are men to stop being the aggressor, stop chasing and just let women chase and choose?
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RE: Agressive Males? - 12/3/2017 7:25:01 AM   
Greta75


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My old work place has a very strict no dating work colleagues policy.

But no, if a woman keeps asking a guy out for dinner and he says no and she won't leave it alone and keeps asking. It's sexual harassment too.

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
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RE: Agressive Males? - 12/3/2017 7:46:22 AM   
Milesnmiles


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

My old work place has a very strict no dating work colleagues policy.

But no, if a woman keeps asking a guy out for dinner and he says no and she won't leave it alone and keeps asking. It's sexual harassment too.

That may be.

And I can't speak for others but for me, the women would have to be a completely certifiably psycho stalker before I would consider it sexual harassment but then I like a little crazy in my women. ;-)

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RE: Agressive Males? - 12/3/2017 8:09:09 AM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

When I was raised men were to be the aggressor and women were to be passive.


Therein lies the issue. I don’t believe it was a constant for either sex. But in the current climate you will find these traits equally represented in each.

Where problems arise is when an aggresive man believes he will sway her opinion in spite of what’s been stated. Some women enjoy the chase for the mental gymnastics and attention. Others are less inclined to move forward with a gentleman they have no interest in. Men are forced to discern which is true with the knowledge that they will misread her every now and then.

I find some displays of aggression very appealing. But these are directly tied to my interest in the party. When present, he will be subtly encouraged to continue. However, if I’ve disclosed my disinterest and he proceeds with his pursuit an incomfortable situation will ensue. Most reasonable gentlemen will desist. But I’ve encountered those who felt their will was greater than mine and wholeheartedly believed they’d bring me around to their viewpoint. That has never occurred. They’ve only diminished in my eyes.

I don’t know if it’s aggression rather than an unwillingness to accept her rejection—in deference to his certainty that she’d say yes—that incites the greatest problems. But whatever the case communication is the way forward and it must be authentically pursued by everyone involved.

~porcelaine

< Message edited by porcelaine -- 12/3/2017 9:01:28 AM >


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RE: Agressive Males? - 12/3/2017 8:44:21 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

When I was raised men were to be the aggressor and women were to be passive.

Would you like some unsolicited advice?

If it were me, I'd probably can the 'when I was raised' stuff.

When you were raised, inter-racial marriage was illegal.

Date rape didn't exist.

People coming back from Vietnam were spit on as soon as they got off the plane in their own country.

Sodomy was illegal in darn near every state.

And a bunch of other outdated ideas about gender, color, and protection in the work-place.

I wouldn't be too thrilled to be the person that wants to hold on to that kind of stuff.

quote:

The old “men chase and women choose” concept.

Would you like a club to go with the caveman concept?

quote:

But now it seems that if the “chase” is more than a onetime offer of dinner, it is sexual harassment. (In the work place asking twice can legally be considered sexual harassment)

Ya know, I was just on another thread where I told another person is was ridiculously obvious to me that none of you folks have ever worked HR.

I have this theory that the two hardest responses to an inquiry are "no" and "I don't know". Almost as those answers aren't 'good enough,' too hard to accept, or isn't intelligible in some way.

"No" is one of the shortest words commonly used in the English language. At the same time, it seems to be one of the hardest to comprehend.

quote:

So I guess my question is; are men to stop being the aggressor, stop chasing and just let women chase and choose?

Will you feel castrated if I say yes?

Evidently, I'm doing something wrong that I don't seem to convey myself about how serious I am about work. If that's you're dating pool, I'd probably say to socialize more. Your co-workers are there to do a job and earn a paycheck, just like you. It's not like most companies don't allow social interaction if there's no boss/subordinate thing going.

However, I still happen to think that the word "no" about any invite tends to prevail.

You only need one "no" to convey the message that the other person doesn't want the same thing that you do as a far as a non-business anything.

"NO" is not the code for 'try harder', 'he/she doesn't mean it,' bulldoze the answer, or any other thing that people talk themselves into, rather than just accepting the other person said "no".







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RE: Agressive Males? - 12/3/2017 9:19:39 AM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

You only need one "no" to convey the message that the other person doesn't want the same thing that you do as a far as a non-business anything.

"NO" is not the code for 'try harder', 'he/she doesn't mean it,' bulldoze the answer, or any other thing that people talk themselves into, rather than just accepting the other person said "no".


This.

~porcelaine


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RE: Agressive Males? - 12/3/2017 9:35:16 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

When I was raised men were to be the aggressor and women were to be passive.

The old “men chase and women choose” concept.

But now it seems that if the “chase” is more than a onetime offer of dinner, it is sexual harassment. (In the work place asking twice can legally be considered sexual harassment)

So I guess my question is; are men to stop being the aggressor, stop chasing and just let women chase and choose?



I believe some men are making too much out of #metoo. I don't know about you but I have no trouble pursuing women and at the same time showing them respect. If a woman rejects me even subtlety I just move on. If I am mistaken they will let me know.. which happens from time to time.

The actions of the men in the news, if true, are not the actions of a man as I define man... but the actions of men that are perverse with sexual and social problems and need help. I am not talking about their actual sexual practices, other than pedophilia, which are just fine within this lifestyle... but I am talking about the lack of permission and good taste.


Butch


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RE: Agressive Males? - 12/3/2017 11:02:01 AM   
Milesnmiles


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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
When I was raised men were to be the aggressor and women were to be passive.

Therein lies the issue. I don’t believe it was a constant for either sex. But in the current climate you will find these traits equally represented in each.
I don't believe I said that it was a constant, just that that was the principle that was taught at the time. As for "in the current climate you will find these traits equally represented in each"; I don't know of any studies to back that up but I will say that women seem to be more upset with men being aggressive these days.
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
Where problems arise is when an aggressive man believes he will sway her opinion in spite of what’s been stated. Some women enjoy the chase for the mental gymnastics and attention. Others are less inclined to move forward with a gentleman they have no interest in. Men are forced to discern which is true with the knowledge that they will misread her every now and then.
True, people are known to make mistakes and will continue to do so. To me, the real problem isn't so much with the average person but with those few that have no clue of what respect for others wishes is and become such big media darlings that people begin to think that every man is clueless.
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
I find some displays of aggression very appealing. But these are directly tied to my interest in the party. When present, he will be subtly encouraged to continue. However, if I’ve disclosed my disinterest and he proceeds with his pursuit an uncomfortable situation will ensue. Most reasonable gentlemen will desist. But I’ve encountered those who felt their will was greater than mine and wholeheartedly believed they’d bring me around to their viewpoint. That has never occurred. They’ve only diminished in my eyes.
A little bit of empathy and understanding on the part of the aggressor goes a long way.
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
I don’t know if it’s aggression rather than an unwillingness to accept her rejection—in deference to his certainty that she’d say yes—that incites the greatest problems. But whatever the case communication is the way forward and it must be authentically pursued by everyone involved.
I read somewhere it being recommended that communication be used instead of safe words. Because "red" doesn't really tell what the problem is and give no direction on how the problem can be swiftly and immediately corrected. In fact a simple "that feels a little tight" could avoid a "red" altogether.

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RE: Agressive Males? - 12/3/2017 11:15:04 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
Because "red" doesn't really tell what the problem is and give no direction on how the problem can be swiftly and immediately corrected. In fact a simple "that feels a little tight" could avoid a "red" altogether.

There is more than just "red". There is in my case, "yellow" which means, don't stop but just stop whatever you are doing currently and move on to something else, as the current shit is uncomfortable.

"Red" means game over, stop completely.

So "Yellow" conveys it well enough without having to end all the play.

But that's not what this topic is about. But end of the day, it is inappropriate and unprofessional for a superior to pursue an employee no matter what. Because it's conflict of interest. How can he date someone and then be fair at work and not give special treatment to her?

It's that dynamic that makes it instantly like harassment when she says no second time.

If this guy was like maybe from a social event that I met not at work or something, and he asked me out twice or thrice. I wouldn't consider it harassment.

One of my male friends, he actually had sex with a woman, like met her a club and fucked her and they started seeing each other. But he wasn't honest about what he did for a living as he is quite high up, but claim to be of lower status.

But as he got to know her, he realise that she actually applied to his company. And is in the final two choices and potentially becoming his employee.

Eventually, basically, he really liked her and had a dilemma. He can't date her if she is gonna be his employee.

When he confess to her what he actually is, and the company she applied for, he is gonna be her boss and they can't have a relationship IF she wanted to work there.

She voluntarily pull out of working in that company because she wanted to be with him.

And continued her job search else where.

I mean, it's really sticky at work for employer and employee to date.

I've also known couples who are just colleagues and got close, and secretly dated, and when they finally wanted to be open about their relationship. They did it in a way, where, one will resign and work somewhere else. Because the company doesn't allow dating among colleagues, let alone employer-employee.

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RE: Agressive Males? - 12/3/2017 11:18:30 AM   
Milesnmiles


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
When I was raised men were to be the aggressor and women were to be passive.

The old “men chase and women choose” concept.

But now it seems that if the “chase” is more than a onetime offer of dinner, it is sexual harassment. (In the work place asking twice can legally be considered sexual harassment)

So I guess my question is; are men to stop being the aggressor, stop chasing and just let women chase and choose?

I believe some men are making too much out of #metoo. I don't know about you but I have no trouble pursuing women and at the same time showing them respect. If a woman rejects me even subtlety I just move on. If I am mistaken they will let me know.. which happens from time to time.
Sorry, I'm not a twitter user and only have a slight knowledge of what "#metoo" might be.

I am pretty much of the same mind. I took a lady for a motorcycle ride, which she requested and later I called her to see if she would like to go again, I called once more and she indicated she was "busy", so I have not called again. I work with her and she still likes to talk to me but for me that is the end of the matter and I figure the ball is in her court.
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
The actions of the men in the news, if true, are not the actions of a man as I define man... but the actions of men that are perverse with sexual and social problems and need help. I am not talking about their actual sexual practices, other than pedophilia, which are just fine within this lifestyle... but I am talking about the lack of permission and good taste.
Male but not men.

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RE: Agressive Males? - 12/3/2017 11:44:55 AM   
Milesnmiles


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
Because "red" doesn't really tell what the problem is and give no direction on how the problem can be swiftly and immediately corrected. In fact a simple "that feels a little tight" could avoid a "red" altogether.

There is more than just "red". There is in my case, "yellow" which means, don't stop but just stop whatever you are doing currently and move on to something else, as the current shit is uncomfortable.

"Red" means game over, stop completely.

So "Yellow" conveys it well enough without having to end all the play.
Thanx I know, I didn't figure a complete description of how safe words work was necessary, I was just trying to convey the notion that sometimes a little conversation can give a better idea of where everyone is than waiting for the sub to decide if they've reached "Yellow" or "Red" yet.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
But that's not what this topic is about.
No, it's not.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
But end of the day, it is inappropriate and unprofessional for a superior to pursue an employee no matter what. Because it's conflict of interest. How can he date someone and then be fair at work and not give special treatment to her?
Without a doubt, inappropriate and unprofessional but if it's "right" then inappropriate and unprofessional doesn't really enter into it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
It's that dynamic that makes it instantly like harassment when she says no second time.
I agree completely.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
If this guy was like maybe from a social event that I met not at work or something, and he asked me out twice or thrice. I wouldn't consider it harassment.
Yes, the workplace is totally different and has differing standards.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
One of my male friends, he actually had sex with a woman, like met her a club and fucked her and they started seeing each other. But he wasn't honest about what he did for a living as he is quite high up, but claim to be of lower status.

But as he got to know her, he realized that she actually applied to his company. And is in the final two choices and potentially becoming his employee.

Eventually, basically, he really liked her and had a dilemma. He can't date her if she is gonna be his employee.

When he confess to her what he actually is, and the company she applied for, he is gonna be her boss and they can't have a relationship IF she wanted to work there.

She voluntarily pull out of working in that company because she wanted to be with him.

And continued her job search else where.

I mean, it's really sticky at work for employer and employee to date.
Interesting story and accept for him not being honest at first, seemed to be handled well.

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RE: Agressive Males? - 12/3/2017 11:55:06 AM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

I read somewhere it being recommended that communication be used instead of safe words. Because "red" doesn't really tell what the problem is and give no direction on how the problem can be swiftly and immediately corrected. In fact a simple "that feels a little tight" could avoid a "red" altogether.


Most socially well adjusted people with a modicum of conversational skills can clearly detect when the other person is not receptive. Whether we’re referencing discourse, humor, friendship, or expressions of interest, we each have that gnawing feeling inside that the other party is not on the same page.

At some point we must come to grips with their reaction and ply our trade elsewhere. While there are some doors that will open with persistent knocking it is very difficult to discern which ones and erring on the side of respect is rarely wrong. If you’re off base and the other desires the connection they’ll make it clear.

I won’t resort to colors or any psychological tomfoolerly. I assume I’m conversing with an adult of reasonable intelligence. Alterations in communications are put forth to make everyone feel good, fit in, ad nauseam. Sometimes people just don’t fit and when that’s the case we should leave things where they stand and move on.

This shouldn’t be an issue and it’s only an issue when one person refuses to accept the truth staring them in the face. But I do not believe the actions that have inspired dialogues like these are representative of most of the male populace. Just a few people whose propensity for asshattery deeply exceeds the rest by a large margin.

~porcelaine

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RE: Agressive Males? - 12/3/2017 12:54:57 PM   
WhoreMods


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Passive aggressive males in your case, judging from the whinily entitled bitching whenever you get onto this one, sweetie.

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RE: Agressive Males? - 12/3/2017 1:01:48 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
Interesting story and accept for him not being honest at first, seemed to be handled well.

He has a habit of lying about his occupation. When he first met me, he also lied to me about his occupation too. But they fell inlove and I don't think any woman would be unhappy that a man is actually making more money than he let up initially. But this woman is also wealthy in her own right as she is a rich kid with large inheritance from parents and the job was not important to her, as she wasn't wanting for money to start with. So it all worked out.

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RE: Agressive Males? - 12/3/2017 2:51:04 PM   
Whiplashsmile4


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I don't know and I don't care anymore. All this bullshit has me even fucking second-guessing a lot of fucking bullshit.

The other night when I was at Walmart I was in the pharmacy aisles. I was kneeled over looking at the assortment of condoms for sale...little did I know I had somebody which had their eye on me. Soon as I snagged the 10 pack of what I did, she made her move to strike up a conversation. With "Excuse me, do you know where the gloves are at?" I was a bit stunned at first, she clearly had seen what I just snagged off the shelf and anyways. Turns out she was looking for rubber gloves for hair coloring. She was going for two-color hair treatment. A dark red and a nice lavender blend. She even had an amazing nose ring. She was nice and petite and every other damn thing. Anyways, we ended up tagging together all the way to self check out. We both were checking each other out a lot and doing a lot of that eye contact thing which two people do... when really into one another. My dumb ass decided to play all coy and reserved and not make the verbally aggressive moves. She was captivating enough that I would have explored things more than a casual hook up. I dialed back my sexual humor, which was part of the problem. I wanted to make jokes about the rubber gloves and the whole condoms business. That I was there buying a different kind of rubber gloves. Needless to say, I dialed back my normal sense of humor to be all fucking politically correct.

One thing I am convinced about right now, Harassment is Harassment if somebody makes an aggressive play and they are shot down and can't take NO for the answer. I don't see the harm in being assertive or aggressive. It's with keeping this shit up and especially if you are in a position of power/authority over another.

There are however in our society those which are too fucking easy to offend. They want to live life in bubble fucking wrap or something. There's a lot of overcompensation going on at the moment. I don't see this as being a good thing either.

It's okay to be aggressive, although my one thought is... try not to be some creepy asshole about it... and if they treat you like a creepy asshole or find it offensive. So be it. Let it the fuck alone. Deal with the rejection of advancement and that No, you don't always get your fucking way with things. lol




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RE: Agressive Males? - 12/3/2017 3:22:53 PM   
cloverodella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

When I was raised men were to be the aggressor and women were to be passive.

The old “men chase and women choose” concept.

But now it seems that if the “chase” is more than a onetime offer of dinner, it is sexual harassment. (In the work place asking twice can legally be considered sexual harassment)

So I guess my question is; are men to stop being the aggressor, stop chasing and just let women chase and choose?



Simply, YES, men are to stop being the aggressor stop chasing and just let women chase and choose.

The whole premise is wrong from the start -- you're conflating "pursuer" with "aggressor". They are two very different things.

Pursuing a women is asking her out and if she declines or acts wishy-washy, stop pursuing. There is no chasing her, just accepting rejection. After she says no, continuing after her is aggressive.

Being an aggressor is to get rejected, but then keep asking until she finally relents. It doesn't have to be in a "mean" manner, just unwanted. Aggressive acts in this sense may include gift-giving, dinner offers, flowers, etc.; acts that would be otherwise be considered nice or romantic.

Think Pepé le Pew. My instinct was to call him an extreme example, but with all the women coming out with stories of unwelcome or forced kissing, groping, hugging, etc. some men in power have taken his behavior as normal.

The answer here is simple. It's the same as the 2 consent threads you started.

If you're worried about being a harasser, just stop assuming there are mind games going on and (here's a totally! new! concept!) take no for no. If she is the kind to play mind games, she'll either miss out or let you know she actually is interested by saying so. Who wants to be with someone who plays mind games and doesn't just tell you what they want, anyway?

As far as the workplace goes, there's an old saying: don't shit where you eat.

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RE: Agressive Males? - 12/3/2017 6:45:08 PM   
longwayhome


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

When I was raised men were to be the aggressor and women were to be passive.

The old “men chase and women choose” concept.

But now it seems that if the “chase” is more than a onetime offer of dinner, it is sexual harassment. (In the work place asking twice can legally be considered sexual harassment)

So I guess my question is; are men to stop being the aggressor, stop chasing and just let women chase and choose?



In the workplace asking once can be considered sexual harassment depending on the situation.

I was never raised with concept of men being the aggressor and women being passive. The whole idea of anyone being the "aggressor" makes me feel uncomfortable straight off (unless of course both parties have agreed that is how they like it).

As has been stated in previous responses, a man or woman can ask, but no means no, and pressurising someone is harassment. End of chat.

Still struggling to understand what you are really trying to get at.

What do you think the role of men and women should be, and what do you think constitutes harassment?

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RE: Agressive Males? - 12/3/2017 7:04:45 PM   
DesFIP


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No, saying you’re good to go if they don’t strongly shut you down, is not correct.
There’s not a woman on earth who hasn’t been threatened for saying no. We’re lucky if it stops with threats.

And it is never appropriate to cause a hostile work environment. Which is what happens when you view coworkers and subordinates as a pool of available vaginas.

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RE: Agressive Males? - 12/3/2017 7:14:43 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

There’s not a woman on earth who hasn’t been threatened for saying no. We’re lucky if it stops with threats.

This.


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RE: Agressive Males? - 12/3/2017 7:27:46 PM   
LTE


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...is shit. What is not shit is that some women are crazy enough to feel threatened when no threat is intended.

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