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The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Ever Taken - 9/7/2006 9:30:20 PM   
Chaingang


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"The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Ever Taken"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcBV-cXVWFw

-----

And this is at least part of why all religions are just myths to me. As god is conceived by most men, god would just be so puny in the vastness of space. I see this kind of beautiful scientific imagery and just cannot believe in the silly, grotesque and all too human god of the Abrahamic faiths. Those faiths - indeed all faiths yet conceived - just seem utterly absurd. And yet the people of those particular faiths cover most of the world and squabble over land, riches, and philosophical territories as if any of what they were doing mattered in some greater cosmic sense. We teeter on the brink of self-annihilation because of lies told and retold over thousands of years.

Science does not have all of the answers but I think we have finally begun to ask some of the right questions. There is beauty, majesty, and peace possible in a scientific view of the universe. We are all one family of humans on one tiny planet that we must all share with each other and other species. We must stop fighting over the body of mother earth and learn to cooperatively explore the greater universe as one people. That's what we are here for - to evolve and to leave our first home among the stars. It is time for the species to grow up and rise to the challenge posed by what is out there in the vast and gorgeous abyss that is the heavens.

So what happens next?

Something wonderful.

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus
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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/7/2006 9:55:44 PM   
juliaoceania


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Science can tell us a lot, but as far as I know it cannot answer that "Why" question. It is not only relevent to humanity, but other life that I am sure abounds in the universe. What exists on the outskirts of the universe? What was before the Universe? What will happen when the Universe ceases to exist? Why did life form at all?

I am a spiritual person, and while science documents much that is important, it just cannot answer that pesky "why" question... as there is beauty in the stars, there is beauty in our spirituality too, and in all the religions of the world. We just have to look for it.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/7/2006 9:59:54 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Well, I know what you mean, but the only "why" question you just formulated isn't a legitimate question at all, because it presupposes that there is a reason.  The emergence of life isn't alarmingly hard to explain if you accept certain other theories about the universe.  There doesn't have to be a "why" question when it comes to life.

The real "why" question, for me, is "Why are the physical laws what they are?"  Scientists can't come close to answering that.  And, of course, they're aware of that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Science can tell us a lot, but as far as I know it cannot answer that "Why" question. It is not only relevent to humanity, but other life that I am sure abounds in the universe. What exists on the outskirts of the universe? What was before the Universe? What will happen when the Universe ceases to exist? Why did life form at all?

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/7/2006 10:10:03 PM   
juliaoceania


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That question is not important to you, but it is important to people that are religious. I am not a religious person, but I have respect for religion (cultural anthropologists do not get far by being condescending about religion). I find any belief system that excludes others to be a recipe for zealotry. I find some atheists are just as annoying as Pat Roberston, they are just not as powerful...smiles.

I do not ridicule people for what they want to believe, as long as they respect my right not to believe the same way and are not condescending.

In college we did some some critical thinking about "science" as a cultural construct in understanding the world. Faith in science to solve all problems and to explain everything can almost become like a religion, and I believe to some it is because if someone does not believe in "science" as a cure-all for every ill they are ridiculed much like Colonialist ridiculed the "savages" for being "heathens"....Just some thoughts that I have found amusing over the years



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/7/2006 10:24:11 PM   
Termyn8or


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Awesome ChainG.

Really, I never knew you were into this. I have been into astronomy since my grade school days. I knew how many planets there were in our system before others relised we were on a planet.

I never had any religion shoved down my throat as a kid, but I know what they are.

Now that you mentioned religion, I'll lay mine on you. While the closest I can come to my actions on this planet is Odinism, which is completey Terracentric, I think it adapts nicely. Odin only represents God, the Earth is the God. I have adapted this to say that the entire universe is God.

That is to say we are but components of this huge being. The Odinists of the past saw the world as the entire world, we can see more. But their beliefs are not all that far off base. These were a proud and honorable People, no wonder there were holy wars. People coming to them and saying that they were born in sin probably got quite a few missionaries killed, but mainly they didn't know when to leave.

Many human religions have some merit. It is the thought that they and only they are the true religion that fucks it up. I've read a bit about the Yin and Yang, I think it's true, that Men and Women do indeed think differently, and as such have different roles in society.

Thing is, so many of these religions are nihilistic, die for Christ, die for YHWH, die for Budda, die for the Emperor, die for this die for that, you will be better off dead.

You know what, they're right. If you fall for one of these dogmas instead of reaching your true potential for thought and learning, you might just be better off dead. You just won't know it due to ignorance.

Tell ya what buddy, try thinking of it this way; in the grand scheme of things, when you look at the ultra deep space hubble images, think of it like you are a rib in a human body, looking over at another rib. You are simply being made aware of the body in which you reside. In that I realise what I am saying, that we are nothing but components, very small components of something much much larger. ( much=this X 10 to the 2 billionth power, if that even covers it)

Right now I'm thinking about how life seems so trivial when you think of these things. Here we are, and somewhere there is a Woman deciding which color lipstick to use, or some guy choosing those low riding tires for his ride. Gotta get the coolest ones, fuck the universe.

Yes, that is where centuries of preparation have gotten us, if things had been run right, we would see alot more of those stars, possibly even galaxies.

It's nice to know that someone keeps it alive. You get around kids any ? If you have a telescope do let them look through it.

Astronomy is not that lucrative, but it helps you understand exactly what that video says, we are not alone. But then as long as money has been in the way, we are far from being able to go knock on our neighbor's doors. Imagine you or I saying "Take me to your leader".

T

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/7/2006 10:28:04 PM   
Lordandmaster


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The "why" question is important if you decide that it's important before you ask it.  I don't know whether it's important or not, but I don't assume that it is.  (To me, that is, in a nutshell, the difference between a faith-based attitude and a non-faith-based attitude.)

Anyway, the issue isn't whether it's important--the issue is whether it's a genuine question.  Asking "why" means you assume that there is a reason.  If there is no reason, you can't ask why.

I don't think I was being condescending about religion, but one thing I have noticed is that people are often disturbed by my very obvious atheism, and assume I must not respect their beliefs just because I don't consider them rational.  If religion is THAT important to you, you ought to have thicker skin when you're dealing with people who don't share your assumptions about the world.

Edited to add: You know, on rereading my original post, I don't even see how you assumed I was opposed to religion.  I admitted that scientists can't explain why the physical laws are the way they are.  Maybe I believe that a divinity willed them to be so.  In fact, I don't, but I don't see how you could tell that just from what I wrote.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 9/7/2006 10:30:56 PM >

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/7/2006 10:32:06 PM   
Termyn8or


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Religion ?

Religion tries to explain what the body wants, at times it succeds, at times it fails. I definitely don't want to jack this thread into that.

T

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/7/2006 10:35:12 PM   
juliaoceania


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I was not assuming anything about you... really I wasn't. If you read the OP, he seemed to bring the subject of "why" up when he brought religion into it, I was not the one who brought it in. Science can answer all sorts of questions, but it cannot answer the "why" one. I did not even say it was the most important one... You assume I think it is the most important one (well it is to me). Some things science cannot describe, it does not mean they do not exist. The OP assumes God as many religions believe in him does not exist, I would never make that assumption.

I will say that most atheists I have known were very moral people, in fact I have never known an atheist I did not grow to admire. I was not putting you down.. but some of them are condenscending about faith. As a Marxist thinker you would probably assume I was an atheist, and I am not one.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/7/2006 11:06:52 PM   
ONaMISSION


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logically, one cannot ascribe undue merit to the "why" based on a presumption as to whether the "why" even exists (ie., is there a rhyme and an order, or is it all chance?). However, you, sir, are a contradiction in that on the one hand you oppose religion in general (even though you say you cannot see that in your original post, I myself find it glaringly obvious)- I say, you are a contradiction because, on the one hand, you oppose religion in general as being irrational and for whatever other reasons you may believe. Yet, on the other hand, while still opposing religion, you yourself are in fact a deeply religious individual. By that I mean, that you hold a deep but irrational belief, which fact and reason do not support. you see, you believe that the source of things is NOT God, even though this is the explanation so far offered in the history of the world which actually stands scientific reason. The Darwinian position, that everything is an accident, is clearly more based in faith than reason, much like dumping thousands of tiny springs, screws, shards of glass, and so on, into a bucket, shaking it up, and expecting a fine swiss watch to fall out of the bucket. It is utterly absurd that such an immense, immeasurable (for us) degree of order around us and in us could ever be the result of accident. Where there is a great plan, there is obviously a planner. Skyscrapers don't magically appear by chance, where there is a building, there is a builder. But, many people choose to believe what seems most covenient for them, lacking integrity in doing so. In your case, there is no mystery as to your motivation to follow a religion of your own making which denies God as supreme- your name says it all, you want to be lord and master, and not to yield or surrender to another. best of luck on that. you'll need it.
----------------------------
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

The "why" question is important if you decide that it's important before you ask it.  I don't know whether it's important or not, but I don't assume that it is.  (To me, that is, in a nutshell, the difference between a faith-based attitude and a non-faith-based attitude.)

Anyway, the issue isn't whether it's important--the issue is whether it's a genuine question.  Asking "why" means you assume that there is a reason.  If there is no reason, you can't ask why.

I don't think I was being condescending about religion, but one thing I have noticed is that people are often disturbed by my very obvious atheism, and assume I must not respect their beliefs just because I don't consider them rational.  If religion is THAT important to you, you ought to have thicker skin when you're dealing with people who don't share your assumptions about the world.

Edited to add: You know, on rereading my original post, I don't even see how you assumed I was opposed to religion.  I admitted that scientists can't explain why the physical laws are the way they are.  Maybe I believe that a divinity willed them to be so.  In fact, I don't, but I don't see how you could tell that just from what I wrote.

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/7/2006 11:10:13 PM   
Dauric


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It is entirely possible there is no "Why". The existance of everything we are and know is entirely a random convergence of forces traveling through n dimentions of space.

And that's cool.

It means that our destiny isn't "Railroaded" by some enity beyond our comprehension, but that entire vistas of possibility are open to us. We aren't Pawns in someone else's game, but Kings able to determine our own reasons and strategies for existance.

Even if there is a higher power, the "why" could boil down to "Cause, dude, I like, just felt like doing it one day.... You mean it's still around? Woah.. Freaky. " Being les flippant it could be that the universe was simply set in motion to see what would happen, our universe as an experiment in some divine laboratory.

There might be a "why", but most religions have been dragged through too much secular politics to be able to have any authority on the matter. If there is no why, a lot of people who thought they had one will be sadly dissapointed at the end of all things.

Honestly I think Douglas Adams had it right in the Hitchhiker's Guide series:

"There is a theory that states if anyone figures out exactly what the universe is for and why it is here it will be instantly replaced by something even more bizarrely inexplicable.

There is another theory that states this has aready happened."

Just my $0.02

Dauric.

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/7/2006 11:22:00 PM   
Termyn8or


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OK then.

Question is now, if I believe in a supreme being in a very different way than you am I an Atheist ?

Does Atheist actually mean you believe there is no God at all, that we are nothing but a bit more advanced animals ? I have corresponded with a couple people like that and indeed, the lack of religion didn't seem to hurt their morals. In fact they were (one online and one in real life) of quite decent cloth.

Another precept that I totally reject is that religion is needed to be moral. That the Bible is needed to be moral. I just don't buy it.

So, back to the question, am I an Atheist ? I am certainly not an Agnostic, nor a Pharisee. The energy in your mind is energy, as such it cannot be created nor destroyed. Your brain cells and whatnot were created by matter, as well as a good part of the energy of your brain. But then you are supposed to me more than the sum total of your parts in that respect.

Your thoughts, your creativity, your lust for life are all created within. These things are a meld between your instincts and your observations. Concious thought. Ideas. This is all energy. OK we might be a speck on a mosquito's ass, but I don't want to fuck that up.

Of course if I am wrong I'll see a few of you in hell. Poker is on Saturday night, followed by pinochle. The beer might not be the coldest.

T

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/7/2006 11:23:31 PM   
ONaMISSION


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dauric

It is entirely possible there is no "Why". The existance of everything we are and know is entirely a random convergence of forces traveling through n dimentions of space.

And that's cool.

the car's hurtling down the road, and there's nobody in the driver's seat? I don't find that comforting at all... oh, wait, we're gonna drive the car ourselves... well, see, like, this car isn't dad's old buick, this is, like, some extraterrestrial spaceship, and all the controls are labeled in some language I don't understand, and I don't know if I'm gonna, like, hit the brakes, or maybe eject myself through the roof into the void of space and have my eyeballs sucked out of my head as I die gasping for air and hearing my blood freeze... umm,,, know what? I think I'd like it better if the real owner of this thing was driving, not me, dude... oh, hey, but like its cool, dude, because like hey, he is driving!!!! oh, wow, that would have been a real bummer there, dude...

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/7/2006 11:35:19 PM   
Termyn8or


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I try to see differernt sides of a point incontention, as such:

There is one hole in my theory of the universe being an entity of which we are a part. While secure in that regard, the burning question exists : Who made it ?.

This would mean a fully omnipotent God. God of all universes actually.

???

T

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/7/2006 11:37:38 PM   
LTRsubNW


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Well, I still think the most important image ever taken was of an ex Domme of mine.

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/7/2006 11:47:33 PM   
ONaMISSION


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

OK then.

Question is now, if I believe in a supreme being in a very different way than you am I an Atheist ?
-------------------
the word atheist is comprised of two parts, the "a" and the "theist". theist is the part meaning you believe in God (from greek pronounced theos, meaning God); the "a" part means you do not believe in God. so, if you believe in God- even if you have a different understanding of His characteristics- you are not an atheist.
-----------------------------------

...I have corresponded with a couple people like that and indeed, the lack of religion didn't seem to hurt their morals. In fact they were (one online and one in real life) of quite decent cloth.
----------------------
this is a relative statement: they were of decent cloth as compared to what? moreover, you never know the real truth of a person's nature, certainly not a short time such as a few years... so a) there is no telling if your observations, that they are decent folk, is correct, and b) if that observation is in fact correct, it is only correct in comparison to what? when we compare ourselves to ourselves, we are foolish- when we compare ourselves to others of our choosing, we are still foolish- the only valid, legitimate comparison is with an absolute, a reliable standard, and that would be the Bible or with God Himself. and when we compare ourselves in that context, we all come out pretty bad.
---------------------------
Another precept that I totally reject is that religion is needed to be moral. That the Bible is needed to be moral. I just don't buy it.
-----------------
Whether anybody buys it or not, does not detract from its absolute quality. we only shortchange ourselves when we TRY to sell the Bible short.
----------------------------------

So, back to the question, am I an Atheist ? I am certainly not an Agnostic, nor a Pharisee. The energy in your mind is energy, as such it cannot be created nor destroyed. Your brain cells and whatnot were created by matter, as well as a good part of the energy of your brain.
--------------------
Einsteins theory of relativity suggests that energy and matter are in fact interchangeable. but in any case, what is the driving force that keeps us alive a hundred years or more? if you go ten minutes without breathing, its all over and all our greatest minds combined can't do a thing to change that. If we are completely useless in so miniscule a task, why do we think so highly of our intellect, as if we are intellectually qualified to deny the existence of God in the face of literally much more than a world of proof? Though I myself am intelligent above average, I do not see any reason for confidence, and much less for insolence, on the basis of any human intellect.
----------------------
But then you are supposed to me more than the sum total of your parts in that respect.

Your thoughts, your creativity, your lust for life are all created within.
-------------------
is there an empirical basis for forming this hypothesis?
------------------------
These things are a meld between your instincts and your observations. Concious thought. Ideas. This is all energy. OK we might be a speck on a mosquito's ass, but I don't want to fuck that up.
----------------------
or, we might be much more important than a speck, immensely more important, so much so that the heavens and the earth watch in anxious anticipation to see what we will do. Do you want to f--k THAT up?!?!
--------------------------
Of course if I am wrong I'll see a few of you in hell. Poker is on Saturday night, followed by pinochle. The beer might not be the coldest
T

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/7/2006 11:54:04 PM   
ONaMISSION


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I try to see differernt sides of a point incontention, as such:

There is one hole in my theory of the universe being an entity of which we are a part. While secure in that regard, the burning question exists : Who made it ?.

This would mean a fully omnipotent God. God of all universes actually.

???

T


Exactly. and at this juncture, the question of "why" is no longer such a presumption as it was in the previous conversation. If a thing is consciously done, then it is reasonable to assume that there is a why (in the general case, at least). In the present context, the question of "why?" is actually quite important because of the implications. 

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/8/2006 12:02:50 AM   
ownedgirlie


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Awesome video - even more so since they used "Shine on You Crazy Diamond" for the intro music. 

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/8/2006 12:42:42 AM   
Chaingang


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I think this bit is missing from the conversation, the simple assertion that we do not know and cannot know the "why" or the "first cause" of the universe based on currently available information:

-----

Agnosticism is the philosophical view that the value of certain claims as truth—particularly theological claims regarding the existence of God, gods, or deities—are unknown, inherently unknowable, or incoherent, and therefore, irrelevant to life.
...
Agnostics may claim that it is not possible to have absolute or certain spiritual knowledge or, alternatively, that while certainty may be possible, they personally have no such knowledge. Agnosticism in both cases involves some form of skepticism towards religious statements. Some claim that there is nothing distinctive in being an agnostic because even theists do not claim to know God exists, only to believe it, and many even agree there is room for doubt; and atheists in the broader sense do not claim to know there is no God, only not to believe in one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

-----

The first position in scientific thought is: "I don't know." It is from this first position that all rational thought derives.

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 9/8/2006 12:45:35 AM >


_____________________________

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/8/2006 12:43:30 AM   
Termyn8or


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Well then can you accept that possibly everything you know is wrong. When people get in an evangelical mood this happens alot. They don't realise that they are attempting to destroy my belief system.

You gave some good responses, and we can debate a few at will, but not right now.

Can you accept the fact that everything you "know" could be wrong ? I can. My beliefs could be totally screwed up, but I live and die with them. I mean to offend noone, and I really did try to get rid of the word 'bullshit', but nothing else worked. Yes there were synonyms, but poppycock isn't really better. I didn't want to say illogical like Mr Spock, but Spock was pretty cool.

Actually for me to percieve the entire universe as a being is not all that logical, but then it is. It is also not inconsistent with alot of religion. Can you concieve that the universe concieved the Christ ? That is the acid test, can we discuss this. If your word is the word and that's it, I don't have much to say. But on the other hand you could look for similarities instead of differences, possible continuancies instead of contradictions, we might have something here.

I can accept that you might be right, and as long as you can accept that I might be right, let's have at it.While we're at it, about those holy wars. Y'know after the got all the King's horses and Men they then went to the people. They were less convincable.

The holy warriors changed, or wait, they got the Pope to do it, the holidays that matched the "Pagan" holidays. If the word is the word, just how can they do that ? It is inconsistencies like this that drive me away constantly.

The Sabbath is supposed to be Saturday, Pope Constatine did not write that, who the fuck was he to change it ? Is this the word of God or not ?

Now comes my last, and most piercing question. Just what do they mean by King James Version ? Who the hell was he to decide what goes in there and what does not ? He certainly didn't write any of it. How does Gideon fit into all this ? This is supposedly the same God but with different words for different people ? I ain't buying it.

T

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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/8/2006 12:47:18 AM   
Termyn8or


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"Agnosticism is the philosophical view that the value of certain claims as truth—particularly theological claims regarding the existence of God, gods, or deities—are unknown, inherently unknowable, or incoherent, and therefore, irrelevant to life. "

Those last nine words are going to stick with me for awhile.

T

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