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RE: BDSM Definitions? - 9/27/2006 2:32:10 AM

KatyLied

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quote:

and reasonable height to weight ratio

Crappy, you made me smile before my morning coffee. I can almost forgive you for not mentioning the word spiritual in your definitions.

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RE: BDSM Definitions? - 9/27/2006 3:23:26 AM

ShiftedJewel

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quote:

I apologize if you feel awkward explaining what you do in the lifestyle. I am not sure I can recommend any way you can overcome this, but I do wish you well.

First... we have no problem defining our relationship... I believe that was directed at you. We are an M/M/s poly family that enjoys BDSM...

quote:

Forcing me to define my Dominance by somebody else's yardstick is problematic.

This yard stick simply says a dominant "dominates" ... in very simply terms. How is that problematic?

quote:

In my experience, limited though it might be, the people who most insistent on clarified, codified, nailed down, types of definitions tend to be the most insecure in their own interactions in the lifestyle. To me, they seem inordinately concerned with whether I consider them a True Dominant or True submissive or True Republican or whatever, leaving me to wonder why the hell they care what I think.

I personally couldn't care less what you think of me and mine. What I care about is how people in this lifestyle are treated because of the ignorance of the those that know nothing about it. Definitions come in handy when trying to explain it to them... otherwise you just come off sounding like an idiot. How about you try it... Convince a neighbor that words only mean what you want them to mean and labels are only for those that are insecure in their lives and relationships... or.. better yet... go to the grocery store and stare ripping labels off of can goods and then explain that they are meaningless since they only mean what you want them to mean.

Jewel

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RE: BDSM Definitions? - 9/27/2006 3:51:19 AM

ShiftedJewel

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quote:

so, you would tell them that a slave is owned property. Ok. Now, define 'owned property' please; in addition to that please explain how YOUR definition of 'owned property' is better that the none that the newcomer has come to on their own.

My question would be... if a person calling themselves a slave is not collared, is not under the authority of another in a TPE relationship, is completely single and or unattached to a partner in any way shape or form... how could they consider themselves owned? Considering I don't have a clue what their definition is that's about the best I can do.

quote:

how can this be though? by your own words, a slave would have it's own definition;....now you are forced to define 'slave mentality'.

No, I am not forced to do anything.. if they believe themselves to be a slave then it would make sense that they have a slave mindset... which to me speaks of a desire to be owned, to give authority to their partner in a TPE and relinguish all rights to said owner.

quote:

this slave believes it would be an issue, yes. Simply for the fact that the newcomer has done all the reading he/she can, has talked to others, listened to others and comes to the conclusion on their own, based upon 'the general definitions set forth' that they are 'this way' ( be it a submissive or slave ), and yet, here is one telling them that they are not that because it does not fit in with what the general consensus believes to be 'true'

If the generally accepted commonly acknowledged definition of slave was a person that is owned (collared, involved in a TPE relationship, whatever) and the SINGLE person still concludes that because of all they have read/heard/listened to and want to believe is that they can call themselves a slave... well, all the words in the world are not going to do any good... now are they? If a single person studying the lifestyle were to come across definitions of terms that we use in this lifestyle... let me fix that... widely accepted, commonly acknowledged general definitions of the terms we use in this lifestyle and found that the (once again) widely accepted, commonly acknowledged general definition of a slave was one that is owned and in a TPE relationship and STILL came to the conclusion that they are indeed a slave... well, they have the issue... not the definition.

quote:

and what happens when they come to the same conclusion that they had originally come to? What then? Do you label them as outcasts because they still refuse to conform to YOUR idea of what should be?

It comes down to the same thing... just because a 17 year old believes themselves to be mature enough to drink in an establishment that doesn't allow anyone under 21 doesn't make it so. They may have been drinking for years, they may have even gotten past a few bartenders with fake ID's... but it still doesn't make them fit into that establishment. The fact that hundreds of thousands of people once believed that the world was flat did NOT make it flat.

I personally did NOT make up the definitions, they have been around in this lifestyle longer then most of us and the fact that some people refuse to understand that there needs to be some sort of cohesion to the terms we use... if for no other reason then to uncomplicate communication among ourselves does not nullify the fact that they are terms we use and they do have meanings (commonly accepted, generally acknowledged definitions).

Jewel

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RE: BDSM Definitions? - 9/27/2006 3:51:48 AM

OhReallyNow

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quote:

Definitions come in handy when trying to explain it to them... otherwise you just come off sounding like an idiot

then I guess that since this slave believes this to be completly wrong, and since the two of you are partners and obviously adhere to the same set of rules, regulations, and definitions of what this life is all about

quote:

To me, no dynamic is clarified solely by the mindset..it is the physical relationship as well.

then this slave must be idiotic if she tells another that she is a slave in a 24/7 Master/slave relationship?

this slave actuallly thought that this time you were actually trying to begin a constructive debate over the use of individual labels and definitions; instead she has come to see that it is just another attempt at convincing others that your way is the right way.

/shakes head sadly

Such a shame

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RE: BDSM Definitions? - 9/27/2006 3:56:57 AM

ShiftedJewel

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quote:

Speaking as one who's wife is a switch, I find this subgroup to be the most misunderstood and maligned in the lifestyle at large.

You are absolutely right. That is one of the reasons for this thread. What is a proper "definition" of a switch?

Jewel

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RE: BDSM Definitions? - 9/27/2006 4:04:56 AM

twicehappy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

Add me to the list who think the switch definition is dismissive of the possibilities.

How about, Switch: one who is able to create a synthesis of both sides of power exchange.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistCpl4fslv

Speaking as one who's wife is a switch, I find this subgroup to be the most misunderstood and maligned in the lifestyle at large. But, also think there are many shadings to this and that often it has to do with mood swings (and I don't use that term in a derrogatory fasion)

As i stated in the OP these were general beginning definitions, with a myriad of groupings possible under each heading? For instance, a masochistic Dom.

Since you two are the second and third of those who are unhappy with the definition of switch i have a proposal; instead of telling me you guys are unhappy, flesh out your definition of switch and post it. What you stated above is great but some switches are truly only into the physical aspects of WIITWD.

Remember what i am trying to come up with are simple basic definitions that would be understood by any person including and especially those who are unfamiliar with WIITWD in the vanilla world. So we would want a basic easy to understand definition, leaving the infinite variety of possibilities for a later date.

As a better example when the gay/lesbian movement started they agreed on simply "gay and lesbian" with the greater understanding that within the group there were many variations like butch etc but that presenting themselves as a united front required simple definitions that the vanilla public could grasp.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thisishis

Ahh, a 'my WIITWD/kink/relationship-dynamic is more popular than your WIITWD/kink/relationship-dynamic type of experiment/vote. That oughtt to make those whose definitions fall into the minority groups feel err... nice.

I do understand you had not read the entire thread but for those who may take this the way you have stated please read paragraphs one, three and four above and also go and read my reply to Lashra which is post #21 on thread page two. This is not nor is it intended to be a popularity contest.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Actually I think that where masters and slaves are concerned the situation is more complex than this, as a distinction is necessary between a natural slave and a consensual power exchange slave and correspondingly between a natural master and a power exchange master. Then there also are non-consensual power exchange slaves.

I agree with you that the actual relationships of all the terms are more intricate than simple definitions allow for but please refer to paragraphs one, three and four above and read my answer to Lashra post #21 thread page two.

< Message edited by twicehappy -- 9/27/2006 5:04:50 AM >

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RE: BDSM Definitions? - 9/27/2006 4:09:47 AM

ShiftedJewel

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quote:

this slave actuallly thought that this time you were actually trying to begin a constructive debate over the use of individual labels and definitions; instead she has come to see that it is just another attempt at convincing others that your way is the right way.

Once again... it is NOT my way... I didn't invent language. I had nothing to do with the way words were/are used, I had nothing to do with the defining of such words. And I honestly couldn't care less how everyone lives their lives or what they call each other in the privacy of their relationship. My issue is the dibilitating effect a lack of cohesion has on day to day communication.... this is a perfect example.

"My way" has not even begun to show through on this thread, I am only stating what has been a commonly accepted and generally acknowledged definition to some of the terms used on a regular basis in this lifestyle. At one point you asked for my specific opinion, I gave it. At no point did I say it's the only way, in fact I specifically stated it was my opinion. The fact that you don't like my opinion is neither here nor there. You asked, I answered.. like I said... not many people ask and you can probably see why now... can't you? So the fact that your opinion and mine clash says only one thing... that we would not "fit" with each other. It doesn't say that my way is the only way. It's just the only way for me and mine.

Jewel

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RE: BDSM Definitions? - 9/27/2006 4:31:34 AM

twicehappy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreoleCook

I guess I'm a non vote, for I disagree with every definition. example: you speak of a slave giving over complete control, but nothing of a master/mistress having complete control...

If you read the definition of Master/Mistress (i have underlined the pertinent parts) it reads;

"Master/Mistress, is one who is dom/domme" and currently owns a submissive or a slave. It is a title bestowed on them by virtue of such ownership. "It also goes much deeper than the Dom/Domme relationship on the spiritual, emotional and physical levels in regards to the depths of the power exchange and the responsibilities involved. "

So it refers you to the definition of Dom/Domme which reads

Dom/Domme; the one who dominates, the one who is in control of, is responsible for, gives orders and direction to the sub/slave. This is something they are, a personality type, not just something they do only in the bedroom. A Dom/Domme is what they are whether or not they currently own a sub or slave.

As you already noted i state the slave gives total control to the Master/mistress. So to my mind and most of those who have agreed with my definition it is stated that the Master/Mistress has total control.

If you disagree with all the definitions instead of disagreeing please post your definitions here, the purpose of the thread is to see if we can get a general consensus on the definitions, not to get everybody to agree with mine.

If they do fine, then they are already posted, if they do not then they need to post their own; who knows maybe someone else's will turn out to be what the majority concurs with but unless they post them we will never know.

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RE: BDSM Definitions? - 9/27/2006 4:39:11 AM

twicehappy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

I like labels because I like communication as clear as possible, and I like to have a basis for what it is I'm trying to convey. As has been said, they are just ideas to start from. Once someone chooses a label or description, than I can decide if our descriptions match, and whether we seek a similar dynamic.

Thank you, a great and straight forward example of a huge part of what i am attempting to convey here; the labels are a starting point, a way to describe ourselves to others. I am trying to take it just a little further and find terms that are not only a starting point for those involved in the lifestyle but that would be comprehensible to those who are not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: charismagirrl

Had there been better definitions maybe i would've known that.

Exactly!!!!!! And i am glad you found the one you needed at last.

< Message edited by twicehappy -- 9/27/2006 4:53:30 AM >

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RE: BDSM Definitions? - 9/27/2006 4:48:00 AM

twicehappy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash
To me, no dynamic is clarified solely by the mindset..it is the physical relationship as well.

What of a slave whose Master has absolute authority over all she does - her finances, her job, her family activity, her daily schedule, etc.? Yet she does not live with him? She is watched while at home, even as she sleeps. Is she still considered something other than a 24/7 slave, by your definition?

If the emphasis is on the word solely, then that would mean simply that some form of physicality must exist, rather than a requirement somehow being that they must live under the same roof.

Lol, i think last night when Jewel, Scooter and i discussed this his comprehension deepened some. It is really not that different than a slave who is home all day while the owner is at work provided as he previously stated above that there is a physical relationship as well.

His only added comment was "but you would have to wait until she answered the phone and walked down the street to bring you a beer".

So yes yours would be considered, at least by us, to be a 24/7 M/s relationship.

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RE: BDSM Definitions? - 9/27/2006 4:57:06 AM

OhReallyNow

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quote:

Thank you, a great and straight forward example of a huge part of what i am attempting to convey here; the labels are a starting point, a way to describe ourselves to others. I am trying to take it just a little further and find terms that are not only a starting point for those involved in the lifestyle but that would be comprehensible to those who are not.

but what you and your owners seem to be missing is the fact that MOST of us are already able to describe ourselves to others; we do not need a more 'comprehensible' set of terms to do this. Nor would this slave think that a newcomer would be so unintelligent as to not be able to understand a dictionary definition; and then take that definition and fit it to their own needs, wants and desires.

this slave apologizes but it seems to her that your and your owners place an inordinate amount of concern on what OTHERS label themselves, and how others present themselves. If this slave wants to present herself as a nudist because she walks around her home in the nude, there is no one, despite what the definition of nudist is; there is no one who is going to convince her that she is wrong simply because the 'popular crowd' does not agree with her.

Maybe you and your owners should just go and develop your own community, with your own set of definitions and 'branches'; that way you can dictate how others should present themselves to the general public.

this slave is fortunate to be intelligent enough not to lower herself to a level of such superiority just to be with the 'popular' crowd. Normally, your posts show intelligence and thoughfullness; but your desperation in beating this issue is starting to show a lack of concern for the so called community that you claim to love so much.

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RE: BDSM Definitions? - 9/27/2006 5:08:01 AM

LL1aintbehavin

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twicehappy
Such a good topic and thread, and i admire your courage.
I agree that there needs to be some common basic definition of terms for anyone to be able to carry on an intelligent conversation with another person.
If no one can agree on a base understanding of what a Dominant is, then how would one know if they should look for one in their life or if they should run in the opposite direction.
If we all have a base that we can use as a starting point, then describe how our particular relatinship may differ slightly, then we can still have understanding and communication.
If i say i have a blue dress and blue has no real meaning and could mean yellow to someone, then how are we to have a conversation? Now if we agree on what colour blue is, then describe they shade and hue, then we are still working from a common understanding.
It is very difficult to try and speak to someone in the lifestyle when there is no clear set meaning for everything. Its like speaking in a totally different language.
Just my views on this. Still have an extra fire retardant suit?? lol
aintbehavin

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RE: BDSM Definitions? - 9/27/2006 5:10:51 AM

Silvermoon

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*sleepily posting here...*

One of my 'standard' lines when I work with people.

"Labels are good for allowing a comparison to base communications and learning on. A stepping stone from which to start. Once you realize you no longer fit those labels, you're no longer learning, you're experiencing and growing the journey."

Silver

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RE: BDSM Definitions? - 9/27/2006 5:11:09 AM

justheather

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

and reasonable height to weight ratio

Crappy, you made me smile before my morning coffee. I can almost forgive you for not mentioning the word spiritual in your definitions.

katy, could you please define spiritual?
Thank you.

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RE: BDSM Definitions? - 9/27/2006 5:30:47 AM

justheather

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quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy
So yes yours would be considered, *at least by us, to be a 24/7 M/s relationship.

*(emphasis mine)
And that's what this comes down to, is it not?

Why should someone with her own relationship, however functional or not, be concerned with what your family considers them?

And that's about all the labels would be good for because people would still have their own nuances and peculiarities to their dynamic which they would still feel the need to identify in any discussion of WIITWD.

So, under your plan, I would discuss an issue or problem Im having in the forums by saying "Hi, Im heather and Im a _______, but _______________ and _______________ ___________ _____________ and we don't __________________." And then five people would post telling me why Im not really a ___________ but actually a ___________, maybe with ___________ tendencies.

Which is so different from what we have now.

So, if you want to come up with your family's view of what's what, hey, more power to you. If people want to refer to your definitions for the sake of clarity, they can do so with a little footnote or something. Print up a booklet for newbies. However you want to do it.

Just please don't expect everyone else to honor your definitions.

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RE: BDSM Definitions? - 9/27/2006 5:33:27 AM

heartfeltsub

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Personally, i think, especially for people who are new to all of this, basic definitions are extremely important because at times there is this unspoken feeling that if someone really has "arrived" in this lifestyle then they are a Master or a slave and there is this pressure that gets exerted to take on those labels. That somehow if one identifies as a submissive or a Dominant, well that just isn't all there is in this lifestyle and somehow that any person who isn't a Master or a slave is somehow lacking. Basic definitions and the awareness that there is no one is better than another would help to alleviate a lot of that. Just my opinion.

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RE: BDSM Definitions? - 9/27/2006 5:43:48 AM

justheather

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The problem with that is that people rarely fit the definitions. One would have to make them so broad that they no longer even serve a purpose or so specific that they exclude almost everyone.

Nobody has to be or do anything they aren't ok with being or doing, and handing me a definition of what Im supposed to be the minute I walk through the door is not my idea of helping people find their way. If that's what this campaign is being touted as, it's actually a pretty darn lazy method. There are alreay enough people here telling people they are or arent whatever they think they are. Do we need this activity to be state-sponsored now too?

And if a person wants to get a rough idea of what's out there and where he or she might fall on the continuum, there are some very good books that already do that job. If this particular family wishes to write one they think does a better job, I seriously think that would be an excellent idea.

This is not the place, however, to impose one small group's definitions on everyone else.

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RE: BDSM Definitions? - 9/27/2006 6:13:20 AM

twicehappy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash
But when speaking with someone openly, wouldn't it be handy to have a name for what it is? Without a descriptive term, it seems like it would be rather awkward to explain any relationship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I apologize if you feel awkward explaining what you do in the lifestyle. I am not sure I can recommend any way you can overcome this, but I do wish you well.

At what point did ScooterTrash state the HE personally or for that matter we as a poly M/M/s group felt awkward explaining what we do in the lifestyle?

He simply stated" But when speaking with someone openly, wouldn't it be handy to have a name for what it is?"

Due to the fact that "Without a descriptive term, it seems like it would be rather awkward to explain any relationship".

This statement is true, how do you describe something without a term to describe it?

If you are speaking of your foot you simply say foot and everybody knows what you mean.

Or would you rather stand there and say "that oblong appendage at the end of my leg that i cover with socks and shoes that is attached to my ankle that has five things on the end of it that sort of resemble fingers but not really that has tougher skin on the bottom to protect it when it lands on the ground as it goes up and down with my leg as i walk."?

As to Scooter feeling awkward explaining who we are or WIITWD, you are so far off base it is comical.

Tell me, do your or julia's parents, brothers, sisters, children if you have any, friends, co workers, neighbors etc that are outside the lifestyle know what you and she are to each other? Does she call you her Daddy Dom or Master (oops that's right neither of you is comfortable with that term, sorry about that) in public? Do you call her your subbie or Daddy's little girl in front of anyone outside of the lifestyle?

Where Scooter works the president of his company and co workers simply call Jewel and i the girls because they know he has two wives, we are accepted, greeted and welcomed even at public conferences as such. When we attended a business conference for different aspects of the various corporations got together to display their wares and services to each other where the couples were given bags to take home the samples and stuff that are given away they had a bag for Jewel and i both.

Are they aware i am their slave, well, they have heard me address them as Master and Mistress, the only reason they have no further information, much like some of the neighbors, is they know if they ask him Scooter will cheerfully explain.

All our families are very aware of our lifestyle, at family gatherings when introducing me to family members or friends i do not know i am introduced as their slave or their girl. I address them as Master and Mistress there as well.

When speaking of them or introducing them to my family or friends i speak of them as my owners or as Master and Mistress. My grandchildren are tickled pink to have an extra granny; when there was a problem with the storage locker my bikes were in my brother had sufficient knowledge of our lifestyle and protocols that he contacted Scooter first.

Jewel's lesbian daughter came over the day after my collaring to congratulate and hug me because she was so happy and excited for us all. She introduces me as their slave or girl.

When Jewel's daughter's adopted 18 year old son (he is her life mate's child) came over and was curious as to what my being their girl meant the four of us had a long and serious very open and comfortable talk about exactly what it meant. He left feeling better informed and comfortable enough to add me to his list of grandmas.

Do you see any evidence of awkwardness here?

Scooter was speaking generally; we are very secure in the terminology we use and extremely at ease giving a fuller definition of it to those who ask.

Which do you think would be easier saying "this is my slave" or "this is the girl who serves us sexually and non sexually we tell her what to do….on and on…"(you get my drift here I am sure).

We believe by being open about who we are and WIITWD not only are our lives less complicated (no remembering who we told what cover story to) but that we can dispel the myths and secrecy about the lifestyle as whole. For instance the myth that slaves are abused, coerced, unloved, weak or brainless. Or the myth that dominants are abusers, evil, lazy, hate the members of the sex they enslave or are psychos preying on the helpless.

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RE: BDSM Definitions? - 9/27/2006 6:18:36 AM

Celeste43

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I disagree that you can't be dom or sub if it is in the bedroom only. A lot of people have that for their relationships, they aren't interested in or available to manage or be managed in other areas of their life. Single mothers should not allow anyone to manage their home life as it would impact those who are too young to give consent. The only person who can manage your work is your boss, not your dom. So how much time is left to control? I doubt the dom can exercise control over the commute and traffic nor over what is bought at the grocery store. Clothing purchases? Only if she can afford to spend money on things that he wants or if he's willing to buy them for her.

For many people, the bedroom is the only arena available to control.

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RE: BDSM Definitions? - 9/27/2006 6:35:26 AM

ShiftedJewel

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quote:

this slave apologizes but it seems to her that your and your owners place an inordinate amount of concern on what OTHERS label themselves, and how others present themselves. If this slave wants to present herself as a nudist because she walks around her home in the nude, there is no one, despite what the definition of nudist is; there is no one who is going to convince her that she is wrong simply because the 'popular crowd' does not agree with her.

Actually we couldn't care less what you label yourself. You could call yourself an octopus for all I care... what I would care about then would be that you do understand that the definition of an octopus is in part that they have eight appendages... just for clarity's sake. Again, how one presents themselves is of no concern to me either, if I don't like it, I don't have to look at it...

I am nothing more then words on a screen and what I say has no direct impact on you or anyone else. My opinions are just that... MY opinions. As far as being overly concerned about words and the generally accepted, widely used definitions of those words... well... isn't that what this thread is about? What would you like for me to talk about here? Mountain climbing? Motorcycles? Start a thread on one of those subjects and that's what I'll talk about.

When it comes to defining words that we use daily in an effort to communicate, having the use of only words on a screen, then it makes sense to me that we come to some sort of an agreement on what those words mean. Maybe you and yours are quite confident in the way you define your relationship as well as how you would and do explain it to the outside world... that's wonderful... that in fact is all twicehappy asked for when she started this thread... your idea of the definition of these commonly used words. Now, step out of the little box for a little while and realize that some people are not as comfy in trying to describe their personal definition or their relationship to outsiders because the community as a whole is so hung up on "words mean whatever you want them to mean" and a little clarity would be a welcome relief to them. Again, that's why we thought this thread would be a good idea... To give those that are confident in what they believe the definitions are the opportunity to share their wisdom with those that are not. At no point did anyone say anything was going to be carved in stone and that there is only one true way or one person's way is better then the others... those are assumptions made by people and then jumped on in the defense of their way... not even close to the topic at hand.

quote:

this slave is fortunate to be intelligent enough not to lower herself to a level of such superiority just to be with the 'popular' crowd. Normally, your posts show intelligence and thoughfullness; but your desperation in beating this issue is starting to show a lack of concern for the so called community that you claim to love so much.

Popular crowd huh? Not something we ever thought we was a part of but ok... As far as "beating this issue" is concerned... all we did was answer questions directed to us, if you don't want our answers, don't ask us questions. If you were to look back over the last few pages I can tell you honestly that there is as much pink font as there is in our black responses.

Jewel

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Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to OhReallyNow)

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Post #: 60