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RE: "Under My protection" - 10/29/2006 9:30:36 AM   
emdoub


Posts: 223
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Minnenipples, Minnesnowta
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sarasmilesss

There came a time when i started talking to a Dominant that wanted to meet i asked Him if He would talk to this Person and why. His response was "Of course He would as He had no problem with that... He had nothing to hide and liked the fact that i had such close friends." He proceeded to give me not only His email but His telephone numbers to pass on to this Dominant. Telling me to tell Him "He looked forward to His call." Now reading the previous posts by some, on this topic, i have to wonder if He was secretly submissive and thats why He didn't mind talking, or as some see it, "controlled" by that Dom in regards to talking to me. It certainly couldn't have been because...
He saw nothing but the genuine act of friendship


Having found a sub that had piqued my interest, would I object to chatting with someone whom they trusted, so they could get a second opinion?  Not in the least.

My original complaint was about the people who want the second opinion first - who expect initial contact to be dom-to-dom.  "If you want to ask me out for coffee, you must first win the approval of MasterDom" sort of thing.

quote:

i think we run on dangerous ground when we put blanket statements out there. Just because someone is under Another's protection doesn't mean they aren't capable functioning adults that can think for themsevles. Not everything is black and white and sometimes i think we in this "life" place more judgement then someone would get in the vanilla world. i hate to think someone came here seeking knowledge only to find judgement.


Protection requires no collar, and it's A Good Thing.  Protection in itself is A Good Thing.  Using the concept of a collar to hide behind someone else's judgement is ... well, not.

If I'm at a club and want to ask someone to dance,  I look at what's surrounding them.  If they're apparently coupled, it's simply polite to ask their partner's approval of the invitation before inviting them.  But if they're hanging out with some buddies, it's foolish to ask the buddy's permission - they would view me, quite rightly, as some sort of nutcase.  (Well, I am, but I don't advertise it to relative strangers.) 

Only dancing with folks after your buddy has checked out and approved of them is... well, I'd call it juvenile, but I've got teens, and see a lot of actual juvenile behavior - hiding behind the friend's approval is just not up to that standard - unless you've got an exceptionally juvenile teen.

Now, if I walk up and ask SaucySuzie to dance, and she raises an eyebrow to CluefulKate, waiting for CluefulKate's nod before she agrees, that's okay - using a friend whose judgement you trust to backstop your own judgement is often A Good Idea. 

However, if I ask SaucySuzie to dance, and start getting interrogated by CluefulKate before SaucySuzie even acknowledges my presence, I'm gonna walk away - that dynamic is just not something I'm going to put up with.  The bare minimum in that direction would be SaucySuzie saying "Well, yes, but I'd really appreciate it if you'd chat with my friend CK for a minute - she knows an awful lot about dance." 

And when this is not having friends backstop your judgement, it really *is* about the d/s dynamic.  I simply can't imagine a sub approaching an interesting dominant, and being told that they'd have to pass muster with the dominant's experienced submissive buddy first.  When I see this, what I see is a d/s relationship without any of the work, risk, or effort that most put into their relationships.

Midnight Writer


_____________________________

Benevolent Dictator of TIES - Tremendously Intense Erotic Situations. If you're local to Mpls-St.Paul, MN, you may want to check us out. The web site is at http://www.ties-bdsm.org and the Munches are monthly.

(in reply to sarasmilesss)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: "Under My protection" - 10/29/2006 10:23:47 AM   
mnottertail


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Exactly............

As Groucho Marx said, "Will you marry me?  Are you rich?  Answer the second question first!!!"


that about covers it.

Ron


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: "Under My protection" - 10/29/2006 1:20:03 PM   
sarasmilesss


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Sir...

Not that You need me too ;) but i do agree with You that it is rediculous to ask a Dominant to go through Another on the word "hi."  i have seen cases where that is the prerequisite and it has left me to wonder what is in that persons head if anything. As with anything there is always an extreme that can be taken. It's rather sad in my opinion because, of those like You have described, people will judge anyone that may need the aid of another for whatever reason and suddenly title them "helpless" and someone that has nothing to offer in her service.

Sir You certainly brought a smile to my face with the creavtive names!!!

(in reply to emdoub)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: "Under My protection" - 10/29/2006 1:31:58 PM   
sarasmilesss


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Joined: 9/23/2004
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[/quote]

But the thing is quite literally that if you are using someone else to filter through your decisions on who to date it DOES mean that you at least don't believe that you can actually pick someone appropriately.  For better or for worse the choice to seek someone to filter through decisions on who to date does say how you regard and trust your own judgement and decision making ability.

C~

[/quote]

i don't remember ever saying  i "used someone else to filter through my decisions" ... rather i looked to another for advice and opinions in ONE area of my life. And if my post is reread you would see where i did say i "doubted" my ability because of what i had been through. Also... i don't see my servitude as "dating" i am not looking to be anyone' girlfriend... so "dating" is not something i was asking advice on. i was seeking the adivce of One that AT THAT TIME was more capable of seeing certain things that i might have missed.

(in reply to Wildfleurs)
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RE: "Under My protection" - 10/29/2006 2:27:30 PM   
TexasMaam


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Joined: 6/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Morrigel

quote:

ORIGINAL: emdoub

So, can anyone explain the dynamic here? 


I have no idea what the situation would be for others.  If someone who was dear to me asked me for my protection, and I gave that person my word?  They would receive my protection.

If that means talking to other potential dominants to see what their level of experience is, who they might know locally and who they have played with, and what understanding they have of basic consent and safety issues?  Fine. 

Even more importantly, a submissive who can say he/she is "protected" is letting potential predators know that he/she is not alone and unsupported in the community.  These negotiations are not going on in a vacuum; the sub has friends, and there will be accountability for any violations of trust or consent.

Protection is a standard practice in any situation where someone is meeting a stranger in a sexual context for the first time.  It is considered a standard safety measure for vanilla sex hook-ups:  always make sure that a third party knows where you are going, who you are going to be with, and roughly when you are expected back.  Giving a third party the full contact information of the person you are meeting is normal and is simply considered a smart thing to do.

I fail to see why these basic measures are suddenly dumb or laughable just because the sex involved is kinkier and more physically dangerous.  It's a well known fact that predators always look for the safest, most convenient prey:  the subs that are alone, socially isolated, without help, guidance, or recourse, who are vulnerable and defenseless--that's what they're really looking for.

--M


Well said.

Texas Maam

< Message edited by TexasMaam -- 10/29/2006 2:38:02 PM >


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RE: "Under My protection" - 10/29/2006 2:33:27 PM   
mnottertail


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Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuddddddeette!!!!

Where you been hiding and did you get enough hay or did the drought stay with ya?

Ron


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to TexasMaam)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: "Under My protection" - 10/29/2006 2:42:47 PM   
TexasMaam


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Hija sweetie! lololol Didja miss Me?

We received about 11 inches of rain in three days! Lake Conroe was down more than 19 feet and filled up in less than a week: now THAT's some runoff!

Too little, too late, though, for any summer grazing, or for any hay crop at all, but the stock tanks are about 3/4 full here, which is a blessing since the cattle were slurping the rusty dregs of the last running well on the farm, dontcha know.

At least it promises to be a wet fall, and with a little luck, a rather mild winter, and some ryegrass and clover for forage, I'll make it thru one more year.

How are you, you old curmudgeon?  ; )

TexasMaam

< Message edited by TexasMaam -- 10/29/2006 2:44:17 PM >


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RE: "Under My protection" - 10/29/2006 2:51:35 PM   
mnottertail


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Afraid I have been pissing off the ENTIRE crew as of late.  Can't make a dime out here.

I am glad your stock will get by.  We ended up in some drought here as well, bad for corn and boutiful grain, but not to the degree you have faced.  I ended up throwing some cattle in out here, and spent some great deal of time fixing fences.  Work sucks but it almost pays the bills........LOL.

I am glad you are back, I will do my best to sharpen my wit, and sour my puss, and make you proud MaaM!!!!

Sincerely,
Ron


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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: "Under My protection" - 10/29/2006 3:00:10 PM   
TexasMaam


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I appreciate that.  The sharpen your wit part, anyway.

You can keep the sour puss, I have enough feral cats that scratch.  (Hell, I have enough cybercats that scratch too, if we're talkin' bout these boards!)

You'll make Me proud if you'll email Me over on the other side, afore these here Mods take exception to our personal tete a tete here on the forum!

Good to see you. Don't be a stranger!

Umm, er, ummina, sputter, choke, "Sirrrrrr".  *gasp*cough*sputter*

TexasMaam

< Message edited by TexasMaam -- 10/29/2006 3:02:40 PM >


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RE: "Under My protection" - 10/29/2006 3:38:32 PM   
Zensee


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Why are some of those opposed to the notion of protection using exaggerated and concocted examples to make their case or demeaning language to describe those with opposing views. You aren't going to win converts with insults and elaborate whines.

Who cares if it is called a collar or a tinfoil beany. If you don't like the conditions a submissive has for contact, find someone else. Same as if you don't like their kink. Just move on. It's really quite simple. No need to get nasty about it.

Z.


0

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RE: "Under My protection" - 10/29/2006 3:55:57 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sarasmilesss

i don't remember ever saying  i "used someone else to filter through my decisions" ... rather i looked to another for advice and opinions in ONE area of my life.


When you said, "i was still filled with fear and self doubt in my ability to see ALL the red flags in someone. He offered to help me with that."  It certainly sounds like you say that you were getting help on filtering through prospects. 

quote:


And if my post is reread you would see where i did say i "doubted" my ability because of what i had been through.


Yes,  it seems we are both in agreement on that.

quote:


Also... i don't see my servitude as "dating" i am not looking to be anyone' girlfriend... so "dating" is not something i was asking advice on. i was seeking the adivce of One that AT THAT TIME was more capable of seeing certain things that i might have missed.


Maybe you go straight to a relationship without getting to know someone?  Generally going to a movie, going to lunch, going to dinner with someone that you are considering a relationship with to get to know them better is called dating.

My whole point of the post before is that I can't see someone who was completely comfortable and confident in their choices in dominants/tops/partners/significant others/insert appropriate term would choose another person to filter through their decisions.  For better or for worse the lack of confidence in ones decisions is a signal to prospectives.

C~

< Message edited by Wildfleurs -- 10/29/2006 3:56:20 PM >


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The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
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RE: "Under My protection" - 10/31/2006 12:55:01 PM   
desoutter


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what can I add that has not been said....
protector - bad...ummmkay....

Really - not only do we have to learn how to get past the subs weak and primitive defenses, we need to learn how to get past another Dom's?
desoutter

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When the going gets weird... the weird turn pro.

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RE: "Under My protection" - 11/3/2006 3:40:23 PM   
Betacoywolf


Posts: 13
Joined: 10/29/2006
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Hello Since I know you personaly and I am one of those that has mentor mentioned in my profile... I have personal reasons for having mention him and for him being there for me.. Not because I cannot say no and such just one I am tired of the wanna-be's hitting me up for sex or inviting me to swinger parties...  I am also very active in local community and such here as you know emdoub some of the Dom's I am  good friends with and enjoy talking to and they do not take my talking to them as interest in them beyond friends.  That said, I have one Dom that I am friends with that has made it plain on more than one occastion that he would like me to join him and his slave in a Poly relationship and he has on more than one occasion made me uncomfortable enough that I did not want to attend events...  I like both of them and such as friends and do not want to have to take the foot stomping NO I need to and lose our friendship so I have found someone that will for me set some standards so that I can say NO and such and yet not coming from me totally and he will accept this without takeing it too personaly...I also find that fact that you would have a problem with this interesting.  SInce I got a e-mail from a Major Dominate in lifestyle addresses asking me/mentor that I would consider joining his family....Did I send this to my mentor... no I knew the person from a major local event here in MN..snowbound or spring sting... and told them thanks but I was not interested in moving....If you have any questions about why I have picked a mentor and he is not active in local community you can e-mail me and ask me or ask at the next TIES............

(in reply to emdoub)
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RE: "Under My protection" - 11/4/2006 3:41:09 AM   
gardenbluebird


Posts: 131
Joined: 5/9/2006
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I have just gone through an experience that has left me deeply shaken.  My ex-Dom with whom I had developed a deep trust over many months turned out to be a cheat and a liar, a very good one who enjoyed outsmarting smart women.

I'm a strong sub and I have been functioning quite well in the real world for quite some time.  However, at the present time my confidence is shaken and I realize that I need to learn better skills to help protect myself from this.  For this reason I have asked a former Dom, whom I know to be of excellect knowledge skill and character, to be my protector when I am ready to go out into the world.  This isn't a perminant thing, but I want and need a second opinion.

I never thought I would be in the position of wanting a protector, but here I am.

(in reply to Betacoywolf)
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RE: "Under My protection" - 11/4/2006 4:06:10 AM   
nephandi


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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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There is possible to be wery hurt over the internett, yes not physicaly, but some things pepole say and especialy pepole you are beginning to form frindships whit can be devestating. i completly understand the wish for a protector and i can see that in some instances it can be wery useful, it is a harsh world and somone to lean on and to file away some of the edge might be a good idea now and then.

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RE: "Under My protection" - 11/4/2006 4:10:04 AM   
here2pleasure


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i totally understand your horror for what your dom has done to you,i also had the same with my male dom,he was a cheat and a lier and when i asked him...he just beat me up on a reg basis...so you may well feel like you need someone with you...but we both know it wasnt him!...

(in reply to gardenbluebird)
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RE: "Under My protection" - 11/4/2006 10:07:23 AM   
emdoub


Posts: 223
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Minnenipples, Minnesnowta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Betacoywolf

Hello Since I know you personaly and I am one of those that has mentor mentioned in my profile... I have personal reasons for having mention him and for him being there for me..


Okay - just to make it perfectly clear, nobody I know of is complaining about anyone, at any skill level, having a mentor - or mentioning that in any way.

What I was objecting to, originally, was the folks with whom the initial contact must be *with* the mentor/protector - as if I were having a third party screen all of my calls for me.

Situations in which a sub (or dom, or vanilla, or whatever) is getting advice from a friend whom they can call upon for help if there is any trouble are A Good Thing.

Midnight Writer


_____________________________

Benevolent Dictator of TIES - Tremendously Intense Erotic Situations. If you're local to Mpls-St.Paul, MN, you may want to check us out. The web site is at http://www.ties-bdsm.org and the Munches are monthly.

(in reply to Betacoywolf)
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RE: "Under My protection" - 11/5/2006 9:56:34 AM   
sugarcoatedscamp


Posts: 120
Joined: 5/5/2006
From: Fort Wayne, IN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I do not understand protection collars over the internet. You cannot harm a submissive over the internet via email, you cannot force her to do anything with you.



I have a friend who spent some time under the protection of a trusted dominant friend and mentor of hers.  She was feeling vulnerable and going through a period of what many refer to as "sub frenzy" - the desperate need to serve, sometimes regardless of the situation and whether or not it's a healthy one.  In the past, these feelings had led her to make some really bad relationship choices, and she didn't want to fall into the same pattern again.  She asked that he serve as her protector, much in the same way that, as someone earlier mentioned, early suitors were required to approach the parents before they approached their progeny.  Her protector was someone she trusted to discuss her exchanges with someone she was talking to, and to see the signs of that person being a good or bad thing for her, based on cues that she might have caught in a less vulnerable time of her life, but felt unsure of herself in at that particular moment, because she was so focused on the NEED to serve.

(And my 2 cents... if I have to force them, they're not submitting.  They're being forced to do something against their will.  That gets really tiring, really fast.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I would understand this at a play party of a dungeon in real life with a submissive that is owned by another dominant wanting a friend to watch out for her, or someone who wanted to go out to a club but did not feel comfortable without a protection collar. In these circumstances the submissive is face-to-face with a dominant, and the more aggressive sorts may back off if they believe a submissive is being escorted.

But over the internet it is just odd in my mind, but to each their own... I would not deal with it, and pass these sort of submissives by if I were a dominant... but that is just my opinion



I agree that over the internet these things get kind of strange.  However, for many people "under protection" of a trusted dominant, their relationship to that dominant is very much real-time.  It's quite possible that the protector in question just happens to also have an online account at the same site that his or her charge is a member of, for those very reasons (or because they're looking for someone, too.)

Just because you trust someone to put your best interest first doesn't mean they're the person you want to spend your life in service to.  From a vanilla perspective, I trust quite a few people I wouldn't consider bedding.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

As far as the daughter thing, if I had a minor daughter I would be very much impressed by a young man if he asked for permission to court/date her and not find it creepy at all... but I tend to think in an old fashioned way.



Try thinking of a protector in the same way as you think of the parent of said minor daughter.  She's in a position where she doesn't always trust her best judgment, and has been adult enough to recognize this, and to ask for the input of someone she trusts so that she won't make a hasty decision that she's likely to regret.  In some ways, saying, "I don't trust myself enough to make this decision right now on my own, and I'd like the input of someone else who's been there and who wants what's best for me," is a VERY adult thing to do.

The OP asked, "If she gives him that authority, why not just let her submit to him and be done with it?"

It might be helpful to keep in mind that sometimes a dominant will train a submissive in a purely mentoring way, to prepare them for service to someone else.  The protector might already have a submissive (or more) of their own, and taken on this charge as purely a learning experience, never intending to claim that submissive for him/herself.

Many people feel that when a dominant starts an exchange with a submissive, the submissive in question should be going out of their way to impress the dominant they're having the exchange with.  In the same respect, we as dominants should be willing to take the added steps, when necessary, to prove ourselves trustworthy and responsible enough to take on the responsibility of another's life.

I, personally, have never had to jump through this particular set of hoops (yet), but if it happens, and if that girl turns out to be the one for me, then I can only imagine that it will be a wonderful sense of accomplishment and affirmation to have the approval of the one that she trusts enough to help guide her in good decision-making.

_____________________________

Consent means never having to say, "I'm sorry."
If beating you is wrong, I don't wanna be right.
I got an A+ in online bdsm.
You can call me Master now!

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: "Under My protection" - 11/6/2006 5:59:00 PM   
LordODiscipline


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To the OP'r:
 
These people are idiots playing idiotic games and do not have the least amount of common sense between them - they are just interested in the role play of "damsel in distress" and the erreant knight in shining armor coming to her rescue...
 
Everyt time I see this played out, it reminds me of Job Jacobs, who had all of these submissives convinced that he could discern a "true master" - I do not believe (and, correct me if I am wrong) that he EVER found any of them a dominant he approved of and/or that became their master... unless it was a close personal friend.
 
It was simply a power play with a lot of dim witted people who did not have a clue they had stumbled into this whole meglomaniac control freak situation...
 
That gentleman would have been a great case study in black.
 
~J


quote:

ORIGINAL: emdoub

Yeah, I know this one has been hashed out before - but I keep on tripping over it, and it keeps on wierding me out.

Okay - I run across "SubbySue", who looks like a possible - at least, worth exchanging email with, to see if it's even worthwhile for a first F2F meet.  Then I find that she's 'Under the Protection of DomlyDan', and I'm expected to email with him for a while, and convince him of my sincerity/integrity/domliness, before I can exchange email with SubbySue.

Is it just me, or are these folks missing something?  First off, I'm simply not going to submit to some dom's demands, not for the submissive of my dreams - I'm just not gonna.

Second - if the sub is not his property, he simply doesn't have any authority to say "you may not" or "you must" negotiate with a third party - myself.  If she gives him that authority, why not just let her submit to him and be done with it?

Third - now, I'm a father, with a teenage daughter.  If some guy wants to check with me before asking her out, well, it's old-fashioned, and kinda charming, but a tad creepy anyway.  If some kid asks *me* for a date with her, I think I'd feel like a pimp saying anything but "hell, go ask her - you're not my type".  Doing this for a putatively adult woman?  I just don't think so.

Now, if an experienced dom wants to watch over her shoulder and give advice if he sees a red herring, that's a different matter - but that doesn't even have to be mentioned to any potential dates.  That, I do do with my daughter (and she ignores my advice, steadfastly), and would be fine with doing for a newbie sub, to keep 'em safe until they have enough experience to not need help there.

So, can anyone explain the dynamic here?  My usual suspicions are that the guy is front for an illusion, and is getting his rocks off getting the other doms to dance to his tune over a sub that doesn't exist, or that the guy is getting his domly kicks and stroking his own ego, being able to pick out the "good ones" and all, while exerting control over a sub he doesn't want to collar.

Midnight Writer



_____________________________

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(in reply to emdoub)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: "Under My protection" - 11/7/2006 3:51:49 AM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

To the OP'r:
 
These people are idiots playing idiotic games and do not have the least amount of common sense between them - they are just interested in the role play of "damsel in distress" and the erreant knight in shining armor coming to her rescue...
 
Everyt time I see this played out, it reminds me of Job Jacobs, who had all of these submissives convinced that he could discern a "true master" - I do not believe (and, correct me if I am wrong) that he EVER found any of them a dominant he approved of and/or that became their master... unless it was a close personal friend.



I am a tad wary of statements containing absolutes - always, never, must, invariably, every, just, only...

That's a pretty sweeping generalisation to draw from your anecdotal evidence, LoD. Certainly the case has been well argued here, that such an arrangement can be abused, but so can all arrangements between people. Evidence in one case is not proof in all.

Others have cited evidence that the practice of "protection" can, and for some does, have responsible use. The participants are not invariably deluded nor is it required they be either neurotic submissives or psychotic Dominants. Insisting on that begins to sound merely insulting rather than mindful.

What is the benefit of people pontificating on particulars within a lifestyle as varied as ours? Polite tolerance should come a little easier for us, one would think.


Z.


_____________________________

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(in reply to LordODiscipline)
Profile   Post #: 80
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