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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 10/25/2006 9:13:25 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		I was involved with a Christian who was into bondage and spanking. He just made sex a hard limit.

(in reply to Mavis)
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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 10/26/2006 6:34:48 PM   
SirLordTrainer


Posts: 820
Joined: 5/6/2004
From: Indy
Status: offline 		Thanks to all who offered their thoughts and opinions on this topic. I just see it as on one side of the fence they are wagging fingers and thumping bibles in our faces about how wrong and lewd it is in that which we do in BDSM, yet while others throw a label such as christian D/s on it as if to clean it up into their view of perhaps a 'kinder gentler' BDSM. I dont know and maybe Im wrong but that seems hypocritical to Me.

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 10/26/2006 6:54:44 PM   
ZenrageTheKeeper


Posts: 237
Joined: 6/26/2005
Status: offline 		Just make sure your toys are "Christian Friendly"

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 10/26/2006 7:22:53 PM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


There was a quote I read once, and for the life of me I cannot remember who stated it, but it went something like...

"Man, for all his wisdom, tends to worship Gods who show all of the personality characteristics of a two year old."


I am sure it was Heinlein under the guise of Lazarus Long

quote:

When I was studying this in college, I read a number of books which proposed that the reason Organized Religion has such a deep distrust of sex and sexuality is that, as a biological imperative, it will trump Religious Faith.


I have read similar - but,the fact is - there is no rationalizing the irrational - and, many of the mores of modern society are based and steeped in social edicts which were usually along the line of a guide so we do not kill one another before they were attached to religiosity... and/or religious authority in the area imposed was also secular authority and therefore the issues were merged (consider Muslim and Jewish food restrictions as one example)

quote:

For myself, I have difficulty believing in a supreme entity with a plan for Life, The Universe, and Everything (42) who would design a life form with biological imperatives to procreate, build in a sex drive to make that happen, create all sorts of glandular fall-out from pain and sex and excitement and the like.


Then here is the belief that there is no master plan - just a God who is watching us for amusement or consideration of us in general (this might be lent credence through the Book of Job, the tale of Gilgamesh, and/or Ulysses plight and/or Jason's traveling travails)

~J


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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 10/26/2006 9:07:03 PM   
AquaticSub


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Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirLordTrainer

As someone who does believe in a higher power and spirituality, although it has nothing to do with My B&D or what I do behind closed doors. I get a bit confused when I hear some folks talk about 'Christian D/s or christian kinksters'..

With society and the church pretty much looking at us and our lifestyle as 'obscene and immoral', Id be interested in hearing others opinions on just exactly what this is and/or what it means to them.


I'm a Christian submissive. I go to church, I say my prayers. I also get spanked and enjoy the fact that God led me to a partner who enjoys the same things I do. I don't think one excludes the other.

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 10/26/2006 9:16:26 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

I am sure it was Heinlein under the guise of Lazarus Long



Actually, no.  The quote is somebody like Einstein.

Sinergy

_____________________________

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David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to LordODiscipline)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 10/26/2006 9:16:29 PM   
Mavis


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		SirLordTrainer..  i probably wasn't very clear in my posting.  i'm just saying the reason it SEEMS hypocritical is that people who have only been exposed to partial takes of the bible think it says sex is bad, or that there are all sorts of injunctions against pleasure.  That's just not true. 

There are basic injunctions against fornication and adultery, but those are things that involve deceit and the thievery of affection and sexual rights imparted by marriage.. so if spouses are in agreement, even partners outside of the couple can be proper, as was Sarahs handing Hagar to Abrahm. 

Although W/we might have to swap some Matriarchy for the Patriarchy inherant in these terms,  The most classic application of D/s or M/s is found in the old testament and observes the right of the male partner to have headship over the wife,  but it also required his complete responsibility for her..  Even the sacrifices that would give her soul absolution were to be performed by HIM.   Clearly, a couple that did not serve and meet each others needs were placing both souls in mortal danger.  She would be motivated to obedience and pleasing him, and he would be motivated to tend her spiritual needs lest he dishearten her and he be shamed, and incite the wrath of God for poor stewardship of his property.

i can easily see where if my very soul were dependant on pleasing my male, i'd be working the sexual arena, and if he wanted to spank ass and it pleased him, i'd be very tuned-in to a power exchange that would have such long term implications! 

Anyway, once the new testament came about, and the sacrifices were no longer an issue,  there is still this:

A wife is not the master of her own body, but her husband is; in the same way a husband is not the master of his own body, but his wife is.  Do not deny yourselves to each other, unless you first agree to do so for a while in order to spend your time in prayer; but then resume normal marital relations." (1 Corinthians 7v1-5 GNB.)

That pretty much implies to me the recognition that yes virginia, even women like sex, want it, and the bible backs us up that it's perfectly normal to expect it as a right.

There is nothing that says a certain position is "proper" or improper.. no suggestion of WHAT a cpl may do or not do.. although there is a nifty description of what might be fingering, fisting, or foreplay...
... as he lies upon my breasts. . .His left hand is under my head,and his right hand caresses me.  ~ Song of Solomon
 
Many christians extrapolate that since there are no directives to the contrary, and pleasing each other is specifically directed..  anything a couple does that arouses both parties, serves the sexual or emotional needs of either, without causing ill will, is acceptable in the eyes of God.
 
Amen.  Let the beatings begin!

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 10/26/2006 10:10:29 PM   
talibahh


Posts: 389
Joined: 4/9/2006
From: NSW Australia
Status: offline 		Thank you Mavis, i found this very interesting
 
tali

_____________________________

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in giving You my freedom, i gain the freedom to be me ...
~ tali ~

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 10/27/2006 4:50:17 AM   
SirLordTrainer


Posts: 820
Joined: 5/6/2004
From: Indy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mavis

SirLordTrainer..  i probably wasn't very clear in my posting.  i'm just saying the reason it SEEMS hypocritical is that people who have only been exposed to partial takes of the bible think it says sex is bad, or that there are all sorts of injunctions against pleasure.  That's just not true. 


A wife is not the master of her own body, but her husband is; in the same way a husband is not the master of his own body, but his wife is.  Do not deny yourselves to each other, unless you first agree to do so for a while in order to spend your time in prayer; but then resume normal marital relations." (1 Corinthians 7v1-5 GNB.)


Amen.  Let the beatings begin!



To the first part of what Iv'e quoted you saying, I'll say I wasnt referring primarily to sex, but moreso to the acts we do in BDSM, that generally seem to get bashed by the 'moral majority'.

Not exluding sex necessarily, but in My sessions its not as important as the session itself. I do like the way you explain certain things in regards to this thread however.

Perhaps you can break down some of those wild passages from Revelations for Me sometime *grin*.. and no Im not willing to hash em out on this board. And I do like the quote from Corinthians you put up here, I wonder if that can be applied to Poly D/s ..
                    Amen. Virginia, pass that flogger!

_____________________________

Accepting one's own imperfections eliminates a roadblock to progress.

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 10/27/2006 6:22:57 AM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

I am sure it was Heinlein under the guise of Lazarus Long



Actually, no.  The quote is somebody like Einstein.

Sinergy


To quote the great bard, Robert Heinlein:

quote:

Men rarely (if ever) dream up a God superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child.
~Lazarus Long in Time Enough For Love


He also goes on to say (all praise his name):
quote:

The most preposterous notion that H. Sapiens has up dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not recieve this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all history.
~Lazarus Long in Time Enough For Love


We now close the reading of the holy script - and, the word was said.
 
~J

(PS: Einstein was a significantly (if not traditionally) religious man - and, a quote of that nature would definitively not be in his character as known)

< Message edited by LordODiscipline -- 10/27/2006 6:24:58 AM >

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 10/27/2006 6:28:35 AM   
ExtremeOwnerIL


Posts: 197
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirLordTrainer

As someone who does believe in a higher power and spirituality, although it has nothing to do with My B&D or what I do behind closed doors. I get a bit confused when I hear some folks talk about 'Christian D/s or christian kinksters'..

With society and the church pretty much looking at us and our lifestyle as 'obscene and immoral', Id be interested in hearing others opinions on just exactly what this is and/or what it means to them.


I have two separate thoughts on this - I've seen it used in two different ways.

The first is to acknowledge a religious belief or affiliation alongside one's kink. It is as if to say "I'm a Christian, and within Christianity, I've found the ability to incorporate BDSM appropriately."

The second is perhaps a way of trying to make oneself sound different or perhaps a trolling technique.

I tend to believe that wiitid has nothing to do with how I "worship" or acknowledge my beliefs. I may have spiritual moments, but they are not interrelated.

Regards,
EO

(in reply to SirLordTrainer)
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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 10/27/2006 6:49:45 AM   
cris1


Posts: 10
Joined: 6/5/2006
Status: offline 		Isn't Christian BDSM like military-intelligence, yet another oxymoron?

Im probably in the minority but i dont find that Christianity and BDSM would be agreeable together, unless it is always the man who is dom and the woman who is sub and i could not stand to live like that. I bow down to no man, they should,  and do worship me like the goddess i am. I enjoy my dark side and embrace it. Leaving the church has been the most liberating gift i could have given myself. I do not miss the guilt pushed on me by the church for one second.

(in reply to Mavis)
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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 10/27/2006 8:21:42 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cris1

Isn't Christian BDSM like military-intelligence, yet another oxymoron?

Im probably in the minority but i dont find that Christianity and BDSM would be agreeable together, unless it is always the man who is dom and the woman who is sub and i could not stand to live like that. I bow down to no man, they should, and do worship me like the goddess i am. I enjoy my dark side and embrace it. Leaving the church has been the most liberating gift i could have given myself. I do not miss the guilt pushed on me by the church for one second.


I think it depends on what one believes Christianity is.

I happen to identify as Christian if asked what my religion is. For me, that means following the model of Jesus in my life.

I see nothing that I do when it is motivated by love, thoughtfulness for others, and a desire to help others become the best they can be and the model of Jesus. Plus when I talk to him and to God, they never have anything bad to say about my being poly and dominant.

Of course, I also don't say I'm a "Christian BDSMer" because I find these words together to be a way of promoting my religious beliefs. Similar to bragging or behaving like the rich person who donates a bit of money very publicly in temple or the person who must pray outloud in public where others can see (two of Jesus stories for those unfamiliar).

_____________________________

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TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 10/27/2006 10:03:26 AM   
Mavis


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		 
Like the above.. it all does definately follow a patriarchal model, and what is that saying to those who choose the Female Lead /male sub model?  Or Gay/gay, L/l or  Master/Domme/slave-slave-slave families?   It bothers me that it has infused guilt in so many and allowed others to use those words to condemn.  But i wouldn't accept that because your personal model isn't listed as an example, it's specifically disallowed in scripture.    Why can't "Male" or "husband" be taken to apply to "Person in charge", whatever gender?  Why can't submission just be submission, the chosen consentual role of one partner?

W/we don't "reject" the D/s practices of The old guard or Leathermen simply because T/their initial model was Gay/ gay, W/we adopt those things that have appeal and can be applied if W/we so choose.  i'll go listen to MasterJim and slave marcia in a heartbeat,  and not be too concerned that He is Gay and she leatherdyke, their relationship model is generally applicable to me, so i am all ears, i like what they have going and it has validity to me.  i don't assume they mean that Het relationships are wrong, i just accept they have offered their working example.

Once a couple has stipulated to Do No Harm, whatever they agree to is actually biblicly legal, no matter what others quote.  If i was already a believer, then discovered BDSM, i wouldn't feel any more guilt about that than i do about doggie style rather than missionary.   i use the same reasoning to see poly as just as acceptable.  Within consentual parameters, If the person in charge allows, and the needs of all participants are covered, it's just one more way of "not denying one another".

Gads, W/we have enough social guilt for doing what we do without adding spiritual guilt as well.  No wonder some of us need beat! 

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 10/27/2006 8:27:13 PM   
angielouwhos


Posts: 87
Joined: 7/9/2006
Status: offline 		Some Christians are into things that would make non-Christians blush. Our faith represents as much of a cross section of society as any other faith and more than some others I imagine. Its not a peformance based faith, which means a great deal. I like what others have said here in general.

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 10/27/2006 8:37:59 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		If people want to practice what they consider "Christian BDSM," I say good for them.

But...

It makes about as much sense to me as "Microbiologist BDSM."

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 10/27/2006 8:42:28 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

I am sure it was Heinlein under the guise of Lazarus Long



Actually, no.  The quote is somebody like Einstein.

Sinergy


To quote the great bard, Robert Heinlein:

quote:

Men rarely (if ever) dream up a God superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child.
~Lazarus Long in Time Enough For Love


He also goes on to say (all praise his name):
quote:

The most preposterous notion that H. Sapiens has up dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not recieve this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all history.
~Lazarus Long in Time Enough For Love


We now close the reading of the holy script - and, the word was said.
 
~J

(PS: Einstein was a significantly (if not traditionally) religious man - and, a quote of that nature would definitively not be in his character as known)


I stand corrected.

Heinlein is one of my favorite writers.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 10/28/2006 2:57:18 AM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		Bill Moyers’ PBS series, the Power of Myths, illustrated the similarities and effects of historical and current religious myths. A story that we base a culture on gives order and comfort to the people in a way that enhances the society while putting lesser emphasis on the hardships of the real circumstances. If a slave believes she is part of the larger plot, she feels vindicated by her sacrifices and identifies as the heroine who endures much to reach the nirvana of the happy ending.

Understanding the power of myths is itself power. A great story comforts and excites. If I can tell the story of democracy, communism, Christianity, numerology, the Hale-Bopp Comet, head banging music, yoga, low carb or M/s well, I can find slaves.

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RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 10/28/2006 4:46:16 AM   
SirLordTrainer


Posts: 820
Joined: 5/6/2004
From: Indy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angielouwhos

Some Christians are into things that would make non-Christians blush.


Oh really now, I would be interested in hearing a few examples. Especially considering and in comparison to what it is that many of us do in BDSM. Thanks for your response.

_____________________________

Accepting one's own imperfections eliminates a roadblock to progress.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: "Christian" BDSM? - 10/28/2006 5:01:52 AM   
SirLordTrainer


Posts: 820
Joined: 5/6/2004
From: Indy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mountainpet

I belong to several Christian D/s and/or bdsm groups.  Like most other interest groups, they run the gamut from ultra conservative, fundamentalist to very liberal. 


Thanks for your response pet. As well being you do belong to such groups could you tell Me, in your opinion, what if any are the biggest differences between Christian D/s groups and those outside that label.

_____________________________

Accepting one's own imperfections eliminates a roadblock to progress.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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