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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 12:18:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Does Beth have a way of telling you she is uncomfortable or needs to stop? Even if it is a direct way?

Yes. In a direct way? From my vantage point yes, but I doubt she even realizes what's occurring. In fact, I'd say by the time she realizes it, the "uncomfortable"-ness' or "need to stop" has stopped. To me she is very direct, but the process has been a function of time. At this point, trust for us, is more a function of controlling her passion as much as releasing it. Often there are occasions where she rubs a sore spot and looks puzzled as to how the soreness or mark got there. Knowing I caused them and knowing the severity of the impact that caused them, and outsider observer would think its impossible for her to not remember how they occurred. But she really doesn't know. With that in mind, how would verbalizing or signing be possible?

I often joke that the perfect safe word for beth would be; "Is that a bone sticking out?"

quote:

Rover: As julia correctly noted, a safe-word is simply a communication tool. And while it is possible to have a scene in which a bottom is completely unable to communicate (no speech, no signal, no look, etc.), that is more than unusual (though not impossible).
John,
I disagree with you and julia. A safe-word is a communication crutch not a tool. You use it when you don't have, or can't give enough trust not to need one. Communication over time is the tool for trust.

Body response is the media for safe-words. I don't relate and could never understand the process of the green/yellow/red ongoing performance appraisal of the scene. The evaluating process required by the bottom prohibits the experience from generating any passion.

As far as relying on a DM to protect you, that's a sure way to be damaged. How many times do you have to be struck with a bull-whip to cause serious damage? Answer 1. Blindfolded, will the DM know that if you saw the dom ready to strike you with a bull-whip you would have safe-worded? How about instead, being sure the partner you chose doesn't have intentions of using a bull-whip on you until/unless you are ready for it?

I've never heard anyone, even the most adamant of the safe-word side, give an example of a preemptive safe-word. Safe-words occur after the fact. Making them all the more irrelevant to safety and more likely relying on them, give you a better opportunity to be hurt.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 12:46:09 PM

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Well that is an opinion that I do not share, and I am not offended by it, because I know how I feel about my Daddy... I have not denigrated your dynamic or your communication style.. it is unfortunate that the favor could not be returned to me.. but alas, each their own...

Your opinion of safewords and making the blanket statement about them shows your own ignorance about how they can be employeed in a trusting way, nothing more. I will say that as we build communication they will be used less and less, but the fact they exist is not a statement of trust or distrust. I see it as no different than any other form of communication partially because I understand the reason we have words at all as human beings, they are symbols of communication that transfer an idea, nothing more or less. So for you to make this blanket statement just shows that you seem to believe you understand how tools are implemented by complete strangers in the confines of their dynamic... which is a huge assumption

Edited to add, when I had to be carried to the bed because my mind was completely blown (something I enjoy btw), I was thankful I had this word, and it never occurred to me he wouldn't stop... this was only our second scene after all, yet I trusted him already.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 11/5/2006 12:48:44 PM >

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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 1:07:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

~fast reply to address several points~ There are things which I am incapable of doing. I don't consider those limits as they are impossibilities. To me (and my thesaurus) the two terms are not fungible. That said, I accept that some people will view them as such and will not accept "I have no limits" as valid. As I don't want to turn this into a semantical debate on definitions, I will agree to disagree and we can debate 'definitions' in another thread at a later date. I recognize "everyone has limits" as an opinion and not a fact. That was the point of this thread. There are those who seek out M/s or BDSM looking for Knights and Saviors. I was looking for Satan and evil, but I do, firmly, belief that both of those 'reasons' can come from the same sorts of backgrounds. My heart goes out to those who fall on either side of the fence and I hope those who come looking for those things can purge their demons and become accountable for their own actions. In all of this, limits or not, I firmly believe that 'my' actions will have consequences and I am responsible for those and 'why' I have done something is unimportant in respect to that. There was a question asked.. what would happen if I say 'no'. I don't know if I 'can' say no. If I 'could' I don't know what would happen. I can't imagine a request he would make which result in a negative answer from me. Maybe he would release me or divorce me. Maybe he would punish me. Maybe he would find someone who would say yes to whatever he demanded. Well, I just put this question to Himself and he responded.. "What would you say no to?" I just can't answer this question. I don't know how. Which brings me to my current mental/emotional state. I'm menopausal, which should be 'nuff said on the topic, but I will illumine just a bit. ::chuckles:: I think I can explain it best by giving some examples of my past and present way of thinking. This is from a diary entry I wrote in 1976. "Nothing, nothing, nobody. No one. No where. Guess that's me." This is from my current profile, written this year, but embraced at least 15 years ago. "Just think of me as precious, priceless and adorable. It's accurate enough for the time being." A therapist may have helped me achieve the second sentence faster (and 99% of the time I actually believe it), but the process would have been the same. I'm the sort of person who has to do the math myself in order to 'get' the answer. I've got 99% which leaves that 1%. It's not much of a burden to carry and much less than a lot of other 'healthy' people whom I know. I'm satisfied. Celeste Oh, yes.. regarding happiness.. ::chuckles:: I laugh a lot. I giggle even more. I have joy in my heart. I have more sex, more fun and more play than anyone I know and I'm head-over-heels in love with the same man for over 10 years. If I could bottle it and sell it on Ebay, 'happiness' as a label would be pretty accurate.

Bita, it sincerely brings gladness and light to my heart to hear how happy you are today. :) this will sound terrible, but usually when i hear of another's happiness or joy, it only depresses me. because such emotion, as a general state of being as opposed to a fleeting moment, is completely foreign to me and often feels like an impossibility. but after reading about some of your story...knowing where you have been and why...and then noticing the general sense of fulfillment and happiness that shows itself in every post you make...it gives me hope that maybe one day, that sort of joy is possible for me too.

like you, i am a slave, and i have no limits. also like you, i have my share of war wounds. whether or not the two are related, i really do not know, i try not to let myself dwell in that space too long...but yes, i suppose it's a likely possibility.

from an early age, the idea of my death was a happy thought. it seemed the only escape to the neverending cycle of pain that was life. my apologies in advance for the jumbled, confusing way in which this is likely to come out. it started around 5 y.o...rape, bondage, torture, humiliation. i never once tried to fight him...that weak submissive in me i guess. i still have so many vivid memories, things more clear and alive to me than anything that happened last week. like hiding in his bedroom closet, nude bound and gagged, because it tickled him to have me there close to him with his wife walking around the house, clueless. or leaving me outside tied to a tree for hours, sometimes til nightfall. or the time i got a whoopin from my mother for ruining my new white pants..they were stained brown and yellow from crotch to toe...she thought it was mud. it was actually my own blood and pee, but how could i tell her that? every night i would pray with all my heart to god to please let him kill me...please let me die, just please god let me die. by 8, i was an expert at things many grown women never learn. early on i learned how to just zone out...physically i'd be listening to his every word and doing everything he told me....mentally, emotionally i had left the building.

this became my natural sexual state on into my adulthood. emotionless, cold, clinical, but very active and functional. earned the label slut in the teen years because all the boys knew i never said no, and i did EVERYthing they wanted. never got asked on dates, to dances, etc. but pretty much every day at some point i'd be in the boys' bathroom, or in the stairwell, or in the woods behind the school on my knees sucking off some guy or other. it was all i was familiar with...and seemingly all anyone wanted me for.

so fast forward to my discovery of the D/s lifestyle, and of the slavery possible within that slavery. it spoke to me. instantly i knew that this and only this was what i needed. all that i read a heard: a slave has no limits...a slave has no power...a slave doesn't say no or fight....this was me! there was actually a place for me...Men who want this?? it seemed too good to be true. some question how one can "instantly" have no limits upon becoming a slave...well it is easy when one never has limits in the first place. and maybe it is so easy for me to say and mean, "i have no limits", and say that yes i would put a gun to my head and pull the trigger if my Master demanded, and yes i would put him even before my children, because of my scars and the general outlook on life they have given me. a part of me still welcomes death...sees it as a happy place where the pain will finally stop. that part grows a bit smaller with each passing year my Master showers me with his love and need, but it is still there and likely always will be.

edited to add, Bita you are much farther along on your journey than i am. i can only hope to reach the state of contentment in which you now thrive. tho i love/adore/worship my Master, even he cannot kill all the darkness within me and show me the light. it may be true that lasting happiness can only come from within. i do not look to him to heal or cure me. only to give me a place and purpose in this life, which he has done, with the added bonuses of love and support and guidance and care beyond measure. the things this Man has endured because of me! i shudder thinking of some of the things i've put him through...but still he has not given up on me, has not released or sold me, and still thinks i add great value to his life and to the world, which is far more than i ever imagined possible for me. so while no i am not generally "happy", i have no complaints. life is no longer hell. i laugh a lot. someone loves me as much as i love them. in general, life is good.

< Message edited by daddysprop247 -- 11/5/2006 1:17:07 PM >

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 1:46:30 PM

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quote:

Well that is an opinion that I do not share, and I am not offended by it, because I know how I feel about my Daddy... I have not denigrated your dynamic or your communication style.. it is unfortunate that the favor could not be returned to me.. but alas, each their own...

julia,
"denigrated your dynamic"? How did that happen? I gave a position opinion, and made an argument for it. It was not professing any dogma or better/worse way. I'm sorry you applied that meaning to my words.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 1:55:08 PM

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prop: Please don't think of this as a conceit, but I saw some similarities between your history and outlook on life and that of my girl when I met her.

It's been hard work thinking how to say this without sounding like I'm giving unwanted and unneccessary advice.

My girl had never considered herself a victim, never considered that the way she was, was because of what had been done to her, what she had been programmed to accept as normal. I stroked those beliefs away, gently, carefully over the last decade. The reaction to each step was violence, depression, anger, pain - as she came to accept the depth of degradation and the injustice and the evil that was done to her, but at the end, she saw with open eyes for the first time that she could be innocent, that she could open her heart and be free of the millstone of responsibility. I helped her realise that the evil was done to her, not born of her.

The person she was before is now a dark shadow on her past. She still has demons to face, barriers to bring down, but there is hope now, because of the process I've gone through with her, that she will yet heal.

One of my many failings is a conceited hope that I can help anyone. As I've been reading your posts over the past few days, I've picked up on details which have worked on my conceit and have led me to write this post in the hope that something might resonate with you and aid in some small way. What my girl endured is nothing compared to the evil that was done to you, but emotional scarring isn't always proportionate to the act that caused it. She too welcomed death over a continuation of the depravity she faced. She too found no happiness in life. I've helped her begin to recover. I wish I could help others.

Please don't take this as any more than a message of hope. I know that some of you in this thread have also found people who are helping you heal from the wounds of the past. I am honoured to fill that position in someones' life.

_____________________________

I tell you this: No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn
Proud Owner of Darkmoonkat. Such a good girl!

(in reply to daddysprop247)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 1:55:08 PM

Rover

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"I disagree with you and julia. A safe-word is a communication crutch not a tool. You use it when you don't have, or can't give enough trust not to need one. Communication over time is the tool for trust."

I'm not being trite, but this is nonsensical, unless you consider all communication to be a crutch (but then, that would preclude it as a tool for trust). And how is it that you know a safeword is used when it doesn't need to be, or because one doesn't trust enough? Do some people misuse things... anything? Of course, but only if you allow them to. Communication is not (in my opinion) misuse of anything.

"I don't relate and could never understand the process of the green/yellow/red ongoing performance appraisal of the scene. The evaluating process required by the bottom prohibits the experience from generating any passion."

That's a rather narrow view of what safewords (or any communication) conveys... simple appraisal? I have not encountered this "in-scene appraisal", though evidently you have. Not sure why, but perhaps you would be well served to have asked.

"As far as relying on a DM to protect you, that's a sure way to be damaged. How many times do you have to be struck with a bull-whip to cause serious damage?"

You evidently did not read my post very carefully. To whit I repost the relevant passage here:

"And as far as safety is concerned, while realizing that no scene is devoid of risk, an arguable case can be made that the safest place to scene is in a dungeon where (presumably) DM's will (at the very least) ensure that those safewords are honored."

Please show me where it says that anyone should rely upon a DM for safety, or that a DM provides protection from even one throw of a bull whip? A DM WILL make sure that a safeword, once uttered, is honored (they also do much more, though they are not guarantors of safety... no one is). And even that is "safer" than scening privately where there is no guarantee that one's trust in their partner is well founded.

"I've never heard anyone, even the most adamant of the safe-word side, give an example of a preemptive safe-word. Safe-words occur after the fact. Making them all the more irrelevant to safety and more likely relying on them, give you a better opportunity to be hurt."

I do not believe I ever made a case for "pre-emptive" safewording. Though the process of communication often does pre-empt a hazardous condition. Jay Wiseman conducted a study about scening injuries, in which he found the only predictive factor to have been pain.... not "good" pain, but "bad" pain (and you know the difference). Things go wrong, accidents happen, and we Tops/Dominants, although ever vigilant (presumably), cannot see or know everything and immediately. How many throws of a bull whip to cause damage? Better asked, how far (for example) can a tendon stretch before rupturing? And once you notice that it has ruptured, much like the bull whip, can you "undo" it?

The point is, you can dispense with the term "safeword" if you like (you seem to have an issue with the term, so no skin off my nose, it's just something else that people want to pretend about). But a rose by any other name would smell just as sweetly. People still communicate during scenes, and I (unlike you?) would encourage them to do so (but let's not call it a "that word").

John

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 3:11:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

tho i love/adore/worship my Master, even he cannot kill all the darkness within me and show me the light.

Read what you wrote below.

quote:

someone loves me as much as i love them. in general, life is good.

You love, you accept that you can be loved. It's a start. You won't need to be shown the light when you discover you can actually 'be' the light.

Happiness needn't be a finite thing. Ideally, it's self-generating and allowing yourself to embrace it as an option can take you towards demanding it as a necessity .. from yourself. You've endured, you've suffered and you've survived. I see in you someone who is on the path now to thrive. Don't let setbacks discourage you. They are part of life and they will occur but you'll get to where you're going. Just allow yourself time for the process. Scars can form in an instant, healing takes a while. It's fucked up, but we have to play the cards we're dealt .. it's up to you to change the game you play. 2/3 off suit is a crap hand for Texas Hold 'Em, but it's a great start for low ball.

I'm on the other side .. consider that an open invitation to 'talk'.

::hugs::

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to daddysprop247)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 3:25:43 PM

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quote:

There was a question asked.. what would happen if I say 'no'. I don't know if I 'can' say no.

Just for fun I'll suggest something that might get you to say no -- if he said he was going to give you as a present to someone else permanently.

Logically as a no limits slave you are property and can be given away as chattel. However, the foundation for your slavery is your relationship with your master, and giving you away effectively ends that just like a release.

Yeah, I know this is just one of those annoying "what if" scenarios that ain't gonna happen, but I'm just offering it as an idea on the chance it might be 1 thing you could say "no" to. From what you've written I'm guessing that when you were young and foolish you might have dutifully gone along with it, but now you might just say "Fuck that!"

< Message edited by happypervert -- 11/5/2006 3:27:16 PM >

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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 3:42:25 PM

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I have to totally disagree with you here. A person can have a "no limits" relationship without being mentally ill. Before you can make that statelment you first have to know about their selection process. I was a 24/7 slave with no limits but now am Switch that is predominately Dom.
When I looked at Doms I certainly did not look at a Dom that would have different limits than me. I looked for one that would have the same limits and in that case there would be a "no limits" submission. If I don't want to do skat I am not going to look for a Master that would be into that. So if I know their limits and mine are compatable them I can with confidence say that I have no limits with them because I know they will not go there anyway. So anything that they would do to or with me or require of me would in fact be something I could or would be capable of doing. This in no way means that I would have the same "no limits" standard with someone else. So many forget that the selection process plays a key role in any relationship and because of that they can indeed have a "no limits" standard between them. So do they have no limits at all in their entire life? No! and noone said that. They have no limits between them. You do not have to be mentally ill to have the capasity to trust someone completely and give them all of you if you know that on the most basic levels you are totally compatable.
Sharon

(in reply to Rover)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 3:50:21 PM

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Hi happypervert. That idea isn't far fetched to me. If my Master gave me to someone as a permanent present, then I would belong to that someone from then on. What is extreme for some is not extreme at all to another. This is what was meant by the idea that just because something is outside the realm of someone's possibility, does not mean it is impossible.

Edited to add: Since he is already considerably older than me and not of great health, he is already considering such provisions for me, in the event of his passing prior to mine.

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 11/5/2006 3:52:13 PM >

(in reply to happypervert)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 3:55:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: roseofsheryn

I have to totally disagree with you here. A person can have a "no limits" relationship without being mentally ill. Before you can make that statelment you first have to know about their selection process. I was a 24/7 slave with no limits but now am Switch that is predominately Dom.
When I looked at Doms I certainly did not look at a Dom that would have different limits than me. I looked for one that would have the same limits and in that case there would be a "no limits" submission. If I don't want to do skat I am not going to look for a Master that would be into that. So if I know their limits and mine are compatable them I can with confidence say that I have no limits with them because I know they will not go there anyway. So anything that they would do to or with me or require of me would in fact be something I could or would be capable of doing. This in no way means that I would have the same "no limits" standard with someone else. So many forget that the selection process plays a key role in any relationship and because of that they can indeed have a "no limits" standard between them. So do they have no limits at all in their entire life? No! and noone said that. They have no limits between them. You do not have to be mentally ill to have the capasity to trust someone completely and give them all of you if you know that on the most basic levels you are totally compatable.
Sharon

As stated to aurora earlier in the thread:

I would say that you do have limits in your relationship... what if he changed, and asked you to do something horrific? I certainly believe you if you say he would not do so, but to me, that is not a case of no limits, because if he did change, I suspect you would discover those limits.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to roseofsheryn)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 4:03:03 PM

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quote:

Just for fun I'll suggest something that might get you to say no -- if he said he was going to give you as a present to someone else permanently.

Logically as a no limits slave you are property and can be given away as chattel. However, the foundation for your slavery is your relationship with your master, and giving you away effectively ends that just like a release.

Yeah, I know this is just one of those annoying "what if" scenarios that ain't gonna happen, but I'm just offering it as an idea on the chance it might be 1 thing you could say "no" to. From what you've written I'm guessing that when you were young and foolish you might have dutifully gone along with it, but now you might just say "Fuck that!"

I was having a conversation with Ownedgirlie and she actually asked me something similar. As I explained to her, it's hard to say exactly what one would do in a hypothetical situation. I don't know if I would be a good slave to someone else because I can't help but think I would compare anyone else to Himself and find them lacking, but it could be they would be every bit the man and Master he is (and I can't imagine he would give me to someone who he didn't hold in very high esteem) so on the one hand it's very hard to even wrap my brains around Himself giving away someone who is precious, priceless and adorable.. coupled with the fact that such a person worships the ground he walks on ... and on the other, I can't help but believe if he did such a thing it would be because he knew it was the right thing to do. I know I can serve without love, so that's not issue. I think what you are asking is if I can say 'no' to a service which he has dictated, but also essentially released to someone else. If I'm right, you are asking if I can say 'no' to a stranger and not actually to Himself.

My slavery came about after several years serving Himself and much to my own surprise .. now that it's in place, I don't know that I can just turn it off if he wants to give me away to someone. It's his perogative (one I don't believe he will ever choose to exercise), so, ultimately, if he gives me away (maybe because he knows he going to die or something?) I could only assume it's because I no longer meet his needs. In such a case, it would be right and proper for him to get rid of me.

Now, I'll add to your hypothetical and suggest if you want to put it to the test, write to him and offer to 'buy' me. He's a capitalist after all and it's said every man has his price. I believe myself to be priceless.. I further believe that Himself also views me as priceless but I could be wrong.

The offer would have to be more than two camels though, because he's been offered that already and turned it down.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to happypervert)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 4:03:08 PM

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Fast reply
wow what a wonderful post and wonderful thread. i've learned a lot about others and about myself in the words here. i'm one that has always had problems verbilizing or showing my feelings/emotions unless they were "good" feelings and sexual feelings were not considered good. i can usually eventually manage to type them though with much difficulty. i have layers and layers of walls to protect me from feeling anything too deeply. It's recently been pointed out to me though that i still behave/ react as a victim. So i am working on that. This thread is helping me see how to do that. thanks to all that have posted your expirences.

i agree with Merc on safewords. It's in no way an attack on those that use them. It's something that i've not been able to do since early on when i did and it was ignored. That's all it took one jerk took my ability away to do so again. i would imagine if i were in danger of having a bone broken or being sick i would be able to say so because that would be expected of me. If it were just a matter of an activity being more than i wanted to endure or thought i could endure? Nope couldn't do it. It's kinda His goal to push me to that point. i have to be pushed to that point to knock the thoughts out of my head about how i look in that possition, what He'll want for dinner, when am i going to do laundry. stupid stuff like that. That sounds disrespectful of Him but it really isn't that's how my mind works it wanders all over the place. Perhaps it's one of those layers of walls
lil_joy

(in reply to Rover)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 4:10:00 PM

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Thank you Celese for an incredibly awesome post.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 4:12:58 PM

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Dangit Celeste i had just stopped crying when i read this and it started all over lol
you ROCK

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

You love, you accept that you can be loved. It's a start. You won't need to be shown the light when you discover you can actually 'be' the light.

Happiness needn't be a finite thing. Ideally, it's self-generating and allowing yourself to embrace it as an option can take you towards demanding it as a necessity .. from yourself. You've endured, you've suffered and you've survived. I see in you someone who is on the path now to thrive. Don't let setbacks discourage you. They are part of life and they will occur but you'll get to where you're going. Just allow yourself time for the process. Scars can form in an instant, healing takes a while. It's fucked up, but we have to play the cards we're dealt .. it's up to you to change the game you play. 2/3 off suit is a crap hand for Texas Hold 'Em, but it's a great start for low ball.

I'm on the other side .. consider that an open invitation to 'talk'.

::hugs::

Celeste

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 4:27:08 PM

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I would have done it. I would have trusted him to know me well enough to know that it would be a struggle for me and that he would help me get through it. That is his responsibility to make sure that if I am willing to give him that much of me that he will take care of it to keep me from mentally , physically, spirituall or emotionally harmed. It is something that would ahve been negotiated in the begining that because i give him all of me that he must care for me in every way to ensure i was taken care of and kept safe. That level of committment/trust is really hard to comprehend. It is like trying to ask a saint to understand the thoughts of an alcoholic or a prostitute.
Sharon

(in reply to Level)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 4:42:24 PM

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Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

I'm fond of saying that "stop you idiot or I'll call the police" is a very effective safeword.

Lmao......

When asked by Scooter the first time we scened if i wanted to negotiate i said no i trusted him to read my reactions to anything just fine.

When asked if i had a safeword and if i wanted to use it i replied no to both questions.

When he asked how he would know something was wrong i replied " If i say Fuck No or Fucking Stop you can be pretty sure i mean it".

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to Rover)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 4:42:51 PM

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Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

But this is the point at which I am probably going to piss some people off. You are not alone Celeste and as some others have already pointed out, you will find those here whose Master’s or partners and this lifestyle have been their saving grace. And for each and every one of you out there I cannot begin to say how happy and grateful I am that your experience has been positive. But….for each and every one of you that has had that positive outcome, I believe there are just as many, if not many, many more…who become further injured and victimized by what they find here. And that is where my concern lies.

I very much agree with the thoughts you have expressed in this paragraph and share this concern as well!

quote:

Those who come here and hear the term “no limits” and have no understanding of what exactly that may mean here….or worse yet, think it is something that they have to proclaim to find a partner here. It is for those who come here broken and seeking. Those who think that Dominants in this lifestyle might just be Saviors….or who are immediately scooped up by those who profess to be. Those who come here lacking the self-love that makes good decisions for themselves possible. Those who come in here emotionally bruised…and end up emotionally devastated.

Well stated... I couldn't agree more.

quote:

I have said this more times than I can count and my feelings on it aren’t likely to change anytime soon...BDSM should NOT be viewed as a replacement for therapy. While it is indeed true that some are fortunate and find experiences here that help them….no one should come here with that as the ultimate goal. No one should come here looking for someone to fix them and be their Savior.

again... I couldn't agree more. BDSM may indeed result in some theraputic value in the well-being of a person... but I am not one that considers it healthy to be primarily motivated to be in BDSM for therapy.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 4:47:31 PM

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

"I don't relate and could never understand the process of the green/yellow/red ongoing performance appraisal of the scene. The evaluating process required by the bottom prohibits the experience from generating any passion."

That's a rather narrow view of what safewords (or any communication) conveys... simple appraisal? I have not encountered this "in-scene appraisal", though evidently you have. Not sure why, but perhaps you would be well served to have asked.

Rover,
Try this argument; if you use a safe-word you have never dominated another person. You may think you are in charge, but by the very nature of a safe-word you ceded your ability to decide where the scene goes and/or when it stops. Narrow view? More like pragmatic without the diversion of semantic, or rationalization.

Experience is more credible than theory. I have a zero tolerance rule concerning safe-words, and have had many enjoyable experiences along the way.

Everything else you posted was backpedaling. You either can or can't rely on a DM for safety. If you can't, a dungeon is no more safe than an hotel room, your, or the other person's home. You'll leave it to a DM to judge the depth of the cut in knife play? It's even more amazing that you'd recommend a DM protect you more than yourself or the person you are playing.

quote:

Things go wrong, accidents happen, and we Tops/Dominants, although ever vigilant (presumably), cannot see or know everything and immediately. How many throws of a bull whip to cause damage? Better asked, how far (for example) can a tendon stretch before rupturing? And once you notice that it has ruptured, much like the bull whip, can you "undo" it?

All great reasons pointing to the false belief that a safe-word protects you.

That's the point. Not the use/unuse but people believing the cloak of a safe-word protects you. Inherently they are dangerous, because both parties rely on them, sometimes to the exclusion of common sense. Well, maybe not so common.

(in reply to Rover)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 4:52:22 PM

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gem

However I do disagree on the first part of your post about no limits. In my opinion no limits does not mean that you acomplish the task necessarily, but that you obey the command. Yes death limits the completion of the task, however a no-limits slave would obey and follow thru with the order until death occured stopping them, where as somebody with limits would not even attempt the order because they would not cross their limits of no death or possible harm.

I believe that obedience is the differance and perhaps is actually the discussion rather than no-limits or limts.

I disagree... I don't believe that obedience is the difference.

I believe the difference is the Healthy Well-Being of the person. One with a Healthy Well-Being... May protect their Well-Being... and one who is Unhealthy "Maynot" protect their Well-Being.

I state "May" because there are occassions that Healthy individuals will make life choices. IE.. a Parent for their child. a Soldier for their platoon(friends) . A lover for another lover.... a Master for a slave... a slave for their Master.

I state "Maynot" because not all unhealthy individauls are will do anything... some well indeed find the bottom before their Well-Being is irrevocable harmed... unfortuanately some the bottom is the grave.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Gem)

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