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RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 9:34:50 AM

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Thank you for this post. i have always admired your honor, your intelligence and your steadfastness (if that's a word).

i cannot, nor will i assume to know how you feel, i do not. i read your post three times before responding because i wanted to make sure i understood what you were saying. you are truly 'no limit's; however, as you said, "it has nothing to do with Himself", you came to him that way because of past experiences. you are truly fortunate that you have the One you do. i also gathered that if you had your way about it, you would be able to say 'no'.

you have great courage, Celeste... thank you for educating me through your posts.

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 9:38:42 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Yes, loving relationships can be healing. But the responsibility for that healing should not be placed upon or assumed to be the burden of another. I believe that only by taking that responsibility and owning it for ourselves can we guarantee the most fulfilling possible outcome.

I agree with you if the sub/slave is dumping her problems on the other with the expectation of him "healing" her. But then it is his responsibility at that point to make it clear to her she should not have such an expectation, and he does not want that particular responsibility.

I disagree with you in the cases of, what if the partner wants that responsibility and invites said burden? I never asked Master to take on my issues. In fact I wanted to run from him several times because I didn't want to burden him like that. But he saw something in me he wanted to develop, and he took me and developed me. It was his choice to take the responsibility of teaching me to heal. I still had to analyze it and do the work, but it would be unfair to say I should not have burdened him, when denying him that burden would be denying him what he wanted.

But I think you're mostly talking about those who look for someone to save them and don't want to do the work themselves. I don't think Celeste and I fit that category.

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 9:42:33 AM

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quote:

But I think you're mostly talking about those who look for someone to save them and don't want to do the work themselves. I don't think Celeste and I fit that category.

From what I have read, you most certainly don't!

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 9:44:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Only Celeste can answer this, but from her post I tended to get the idea that she is relatively happy in her life. I am a fan of her posts, so I tend to pay rather close attention to them because she has taught me a lot by reading her.

I'm a fan of her posts too and appreciate everything she contributes to the forum. I would also venture, however, that in writing an OP of the length and passion that she did, there is something lingering there. She and her partner (and perhaps others she considers very close to her) can answer to what extent she is still bothered by ghosts of the past.

quote:

The first thing they want to know in therapy is if your problems interfere with your happiness, contentment, and ability to function... if you are happy, content, and functional they usually send you on your way...

And please let me just say that this may be what happened when you sought therapy but it is not at all "the norm." I don't know many people who seek therapy if they are "happy, content and functional," even if once they get to the office they claim to be so. I've worked with many people who truly believed that their ability to function in spite of alcohol, abuse, anxiety, aggression, etc... was unimpaired. It's when you ask the question "So what would others say about your _________ if I were to ask them?" that you may discover different points of view. A therapist who would send such a person "on their way" without seeing them a few times and doing a good bit of groundwork first hasn't done his or her professional best.

JMO, of course.

~Holly

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I wish my lawn were emo, so it would cut itself.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 9:45:17 AM

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*Smiles* well truth be told there were times I didn't want to do the work. But there was no one around to do it for me, and well, he wasn't going to tolerate less than all I could put into it.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 9:52:03 AM

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quote:

And please let me just say that this may be what happened when you sought therapy but it is not at all "the norm." I don't know many people who seek therapy if they are "happy, content and functional," even if once they get to the office they claim to be so.

Claiming to be so is not proof of functionality.. if the court orders you into therapy because of how you impact others I would say you are not functional. If you walk into a therapist office at the behest of family that cannot live with you, you are not functional. If you go of your own accord into therapy and claim to be happy, contented, and functional.. why the hell did you go? I am perplexed by that.

quote:

I've worked with many people who truly believed that their ability to function in spite of alcohol, abuse, anxiety, aggression, etc... was unimpaired. It's when you ask the question "So what would others say about your _________ if I were to ask them?" that you may discover different points of view.

That is different than what I am referencing. We are all scared, think about our scars, and many of us cry sometimes... we are not all alcoholic abusers forced into therapy.

My point was about Celeste in the specific or others like her, not people that are obviously dysfunctional. She has to answer for her own peace and contentment and life satisfaction, I was commenting on my impressions from reading her posts, which could be off by a long shot...

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 11/5/2006 9:54:02 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to HollyS)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 9:52:40 AM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

I believe you've proven my point, that the only people without limits are those who are not mentally healthy.

Wrong, because your focus is wrong. You are contrasting apples with the consequence of oranges.

"No limits" doesn't exist in the realm of physical sensations and you don't need the 'acid text' of using a chain saw as a play toy. The 'no limits' that exists in our 'no limits' relationship is that there is 'no limit' of our trust in each other. That includes the trust that beth has given me over what she will experience physically.

If you seek no limits in the physical you'll never achieve it. Seeking it in trust however is the cornerstone of good and mentally HEALTHY relationship.

That is an entirely new twist on the concept of "no limits", and one that deserves genuine consideration. Several things to note regarding your interesting point of view:

1. This is a unique point of view as expressed in this and other threads. It's not what 99.999 % of people mean by "no limits". But then, that's what makes it so interesting (it's a fresh look from a different perspective).

2. No limits trust does not magically make one's inherent limits cease to exist. What it does is provide a level of certainty that those limits will never be exceeded.

3. Trust is certainly an integral component to any healthy relationship, regardless of lifestyle.

4. No limits trust is not the same as everlasting trust, for trust can be broken. Trust allows us to suspend our limits (they don't cease to exist). Break that trust, and all those other limits come streaming back to the present.

Interesting concept.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 10:41:18 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Claiming to be so is not proof of functionality.. If you go of your own accord into therapy and claim to be happy, contented, and functional.. why the hell did you go? I am perplexed by that.

Yes, I was confused by it too. You said earlier:

quote:

The first thing they (therapists) want to know in therapy is if your problems interfere with your happiness, contentment, and ability to function... if you are happy, content, and functional they usually send you on your way...

I was saying that you've set up a situation here that I could never see happening. And I wasn't only talking about those court-ordered or otherwise forced into therapy, but that's a whole other thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

"No limits" doesn't exist in the realm of physical sensations and you don't need the 'acid text' of using a chain saw as a play toy. The 'no limits' that exists in our 'no limits' relationship is that there is 'no limit' of our trust in each other. That includes the trust that beth has given me over what she will experience physically.

If you seek no limits in the physical you'll never achieve it. Seeking it in trust however is the cornerstone of good and mentally HEALTHY relationship.

THANK YOU for saying this so clearly and succinctly. This is exactly what I meant earlier about a "no limits" relationship in which both partners trust each other with their life and well-being. When there's an implicit knowledge that neither will do anything that damages or destroys the other, either mentally or physically, then "no limits" can work. Care for the other person is paramount and goes both ways, from Dom to sub and back. Bravo again for the best statement I've seen yet on how being of no limits can be done in a healthy way, for the betterment of both partners.

~Holly

_____________________________

I wish my lawn were emo, so it would cut itself.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 10:43:20 AM

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I said if you are content happy and functional, not that you claim to be. I just wanted to be clear

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 11/5/2006 10:53:10 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to HollyS)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 10:54:54 AM

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quote:

1. This is a unique point of view as expressed in this and other threads. It's not what 99.999 % of people mean by "no limits". But then, that's what makes it so interesting (it's a fresh look from a different perspective).

John,
I won't get into the percentages, but I'm confident that the majority of those on CM, especially on the male side, are only seeking the physical aspect. It is the perspective that they post, because it's their perspective of the dynamic. Two factors come into play.

It's easier. When you only need to develop enough trust to act upon a safe-word it is a quicker process. Finding someone to trust enough not to need a safe-word; well lets just say it takes more than meeting an afternoon munch prior to scening that night in a dungeon.

But maybe the biggest reason is going in, they are dealing with personal distrust. They are seeking something outside a relationship they are living. Even with the most allowing and understanding non-involved partner it's almost impossible do disassociate yourself from the act of betrayal you are committing. Without trusting yourself, it's impossible to trust another.

No limits trust is an amazing asset that grows or dies completely. You are correct in your point #4, once broken you can never be 'no limits' again. You may get back to a level of trust, but from that point on, you'll always need a safe-word. It will never and can never be the same.

(in reply to Rover)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 10:58:55 AM

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Does Beth have a way of telling you she is uncomfortable or needs to stop? Even if it is a direct way?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 11:12:04 AM

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Hi Julia, I wanted to jump in here, if you don't mind. If I am uncomfortable, well so be it, as sometimes I just have to be uncomfortable for him to satisfy himself with me (and that includes mentally, emotionally, and physically). If I am in fear of something breaking or seriously injuring me, I always have a way of letting him know. He reads every twitch of my body, and every slight change in my tone. Once I screamed out that my ankle was in trouble and that resulted in him shifting positions so that my ankle would not break. There have been times when my cries changed so suddenly and sharply that he stopped briefly to check on me, and either resumed once assessing I was fine, or pulled my face in close to his and spoke to me to reassure me.

I tend to agree with that #4 assessment discussed above.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 11:18:26 AM

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To me that is what a safeword signifies, I am in trouble and need to stop, I do not see it even related to limits per se. If I yelled out "red" in the context of my ankle being broken it would just be a form of communication to me.. no different than crying out, screaming, telling him "stop". I called colors once because I sunk too fast into subspace and was fearful of throwing up.... the blood just poured out of my head and into my stomach... I did not consider this a "limit" being breached, I considered it my way of communicating that I was going to be sick... and I was glad the word was there so I did not have to communicate more than that at the time, I was quite out of it.

So whether it is a word, a sound that you make, a grunt.. whatever it is, you are still communicating your needs, weaknesses, and desires to stop with your master is the impression I am getting.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 11:37:46 AM

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I feel for you.. I know the feelings first hand I know a lot of us here do!! In fact a lot of us in the world do, entirely to many of us. I want to know since when did kids become convinient punching bags??

With me it isnt sizors or people comeing home when im sitting, its the simple loveing act of someone comeing up and touching my shoulders. For the longest time my younger sister didnt understand why Id snap at her for reaching out and placeing a hand on my shoulder to comfert me or simply get my attention. But each time someone does that I snap, Im normaly a sweet kind person but touch my shoulders and I snap!! you could beat me with a belt and not get any hurt or anger from me walk all over me I dont blink but touch my sholders and I freak feel sick I snap.... Guess we all have our demons the scars that still havent really heal and different triggers that make them bleed again.

I dont have any limits with Master, but my abuse did the oposite to me celest. It made me scared. it took a lot to release my limits to Master! Im timid and so afraid, I suffer from savear flashback, you know just when you think the abuse is over a simple touch can make you re live it it isnt fair. but im not so afraid anymore not anymore with Master to protect me.

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to Gem)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 11:41:55 AM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

When you only need to develop enough trust to act upon a safe-word it is a quicker process. Finding someone to trust enough not to need a safe-word; well lets just say it takes more than meeting an afternoon munch prior to scening that night in a dungeon.

As julia correctly noted, a safeword is simply a communication tool. And while it is possible to have a scene in which a bottom is completely unable to communicate (no speech, no signal, no look, etc.), that is more than unusual (though not impossible).

I'm fond of saying that "stop you idiot or I'll call the police" is a very effective safeword. So is "if you do that, I'll cut your willy off while you sleep". I've also been told that "explosive diarreah" can elicit the desired response in even the most recalcitrant Top. On the other hand, something simple like "hey, I've got a problem here" works just as well.

Point is, whether you use a "mystical" word that communicates an impending limit, or plain old English (or whatever your language of choice), so long as you can communicate you have a safeword.

And as far as safety is concerned, while realizing that no scene is devoid of risk, an arguable case can be made that the safest place to scene is in a dungeon where (presumably) DM's will (at the very least) ensure that those safewords are honored.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 11:44:19 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Yes, loving relationships can be healing. But the responsibility for that healing should not be placed upon or assumed to be the burden of another. I believe that only by taking that responsibility and owning it for ourselves can we guarantee the most fulfilling possible outcome.

I agree with you if the sub/slave is dumping her problems on the other with the expectation of him "healing" her. But then it is his responsibility at that point to make it clear to her she should not have such an expectation, and he does not want that particular responsibility.

I disagree with you in the cases of, what if the partner wants that responsibility and invites said burden? I never asked Master to take on my issues. In fact I wanted to run from him several times because I didn't want to burden him like that. But he saw something in me he wanted to develop, and he took me and developed me. It was his choice to take the responsibility of teaching me to heal. I still had to analyze it and do the work, but it would be unfair to say I should not have burdened him, when denying him that burden would be denying him what he wanted.

But I think you're mostly talking about those who look for someone to save them and don't want to do the work themselves. I don't think Celeste and I fit that category.

Im with you here, I didnt go looking for someone to heal me in fact I didnt want to share this part of me at all Master took it on as something HE wanted to do. Befor I ever met Master I had been in therapy for these issues for a few years still am. Though he does give a push every now and then for me to talk about things with my therapist that I just dont want to open up about and after therapy when Im shakey and sometimes a mess he is there to continue to listen to me unravel and put me back together when my hour in therapy is long up!!!

This was not something I put on him not something I gave him or wanted him to have, this was something he took from me. I wasnt out for an easy fix G-d know getting into a relationship isnt easy!! And honestly though I still have Ghosts I was well on my way to the mend (as mended as anyone can be) Befor Master came into my life!!! So no I wasnt seeking a relationship to cure me I was fixing myself on my own but haveing Master well it makes me feel so safe and not so scared it makes my healing easier. It wasnt what I sought but just an outcome of his care!!!!

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 11:46:59 AM

Aine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

People can mostly only see through their own experience and perspective. I think its basically foolish to make statements that *must* apply to everyone. There is always that wild card where nothing, "as people usually/generally experience something" applies.

The statement "everyone has has limits" may very well apply to most of the populous, I believe that to be true...but there are always a few here and there that live outside the box, however that has happened for them.

Exactly why I posted this.. thank you, Jali. :)

Celeste

Makes me think of this girl who lived a town over from a friend of mine....She had no idea that there was such thing as "blue collar" living. Thought that all kids were given three cars before they could even drive. Makes me kinda sick sometimes. It makes me want to slap the fucking shit out of the parents.

_____________________________

Honey, you obviously missed the "want to be used as a toilet fetish" thread or "where do I get instructions on setting my sub on fire" thread. LOL

Thank you, DelRay for that one.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 11:59:25 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

To me that is what a safeword signifies, I am in trouble and need to stop, I do not see it even related to limits per se. If I yelled out "red" in the context of my ankle being broken it would just be a form of communication to me.. no different than crying out, screaming, telling him "stop". I called colors once because I sunk too fast into subspace and was fearful of throwing up.... the blood just poured out of my head and into my stomach... I did not consider this a "limit" being breached, I considered it my way of communicating that I was going to be sick... and I was glad the word was there so I did not have to communicate more than that at the time, I was quite out of it.

So whether it is a word, a sound that you make, a grunt.. whatever it is, you are still communicating your needs, weaknesses, and desires to stop with your master is the impression I am getting.

Where we differ here, is I don't have a random word (or noise) I call out with the expectation of stopping. I tell him if I fear something is wrong, and it is up to him whether or not to stop, pause, or continue regardless. It doesn't matter if I desire to stop or not. Lots of times I have desired to stop but it is not my choice or decision to make. If he decides we keep going, we keep going. If that means I break a limb, then I break a limb. I am pretty confident, however, that he does not prefer me to break a limb. But if he did, then so be it. When I screamed out about my ankle, I knew full well he could choose not to stop and it might break. And in fact, he didn't stop, but shifted his positioning a bit, only after the change in the tone of my cries alarmed him that something was wrong.

There have been other times I was not in danger but was experiencing something over the top. I didn't want to continue with it, but had no choice, and so I did. There was no begging to stop. There was no safe word. There was a lot of crying, though, and trembling and shivering, as my mind struggled to wrap around what was happening. Nothing I could have said would have stopped this activity. There was no point in asking to. However, that activity has made me stronger than I ever believed possible, and bonded me to him even tighter. It was the best thing he could have ever done for me, and he was only able to do it because I had no limits saying not to. He knew it was the right thing for me, and trusted his instinct and decision. I trust it, too!

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 11/5/2006 12:00:44 PM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 12:01:59 PM

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~fast reply to address several points~ There are things which I am incapable of doing. I don't consider those limits as they are impossibilities. To me (and my thesaurus) the two terms are not fungible. That said, I accept that some people will view them as such and will not accept "I have no limits" as valid. As I don't want to turn this into a semantical debate on definitions, I will agree to disagree and we can debate 'definitions' in another thread at a later date. I recognize "everyone has limits" as an opinion and not a fact. That was the point of this thread. There are those who seek out M/s or BDSM looking for Knights and Saviors. I was looking for Satan and evil, but I do, firmly, belief that both of those 'reasons' can come from the same sorts of backgrounds. My heart goes out to those who fall on either side of the fence and I hope those who come looking for those things can purge their demons and become accountable for their own actions. In all of this, limits or not, I firmly believe that 'my' actions will have consequences and I am responsible for those and 'why' I have done something is unimportant in respect to that. There was a question asked.. what would happen if I say 'no'. I don't know if I 'can' say no. If I 'could' I don't know what would happen. I can't imagine a request he would make which result in a negative answer from me. Maybe he would release me or divorce me. Maybe he would punish me. Maybe he would find someone who would say yes to whatever he demanded. Well, I just put this question to Himself and he responded.. "What would you say no to?" I just can't answer this question. I don't know how. Which brings me to my current mental/emotional state. I'm menopausal, which should be 'nuff said on the topic, but I will illumine just a bit. ::chuckles:: I think I can explain it best by giving some examples of my past and present way of thinking. This is from a diary entry I wrote in 1976. "Nothing, nothing, nobody. No one. No where. Guess that's me." This is from my current profile, written this year, but embraced at least 15 years ago. "Just think of me as precious, priceless and adorable. It's accurate enough for the time being." A therapist may have helped me achieve the second sentence faster (and 99% of the time I actually believe it), but the process would have been the same. I'm the sort of person who has to do the math myself in order to 'get' the answer. I've got 99% which leaves that 1%. It's not much of a burden to carry and much less than a lot of other 'healthy' people whom I know. I'm satisfied. Celeste Oh, yes.. regarding happiness.. ::chuckles:: I laugh a lot. I giggle even more. I have joy in my heart. I have more sex, more fun and more play than anyone I know and I'm head-over-heels in love with the same man for over 10 years. If I could bottle it and sell it on Ebay, 'happiness' as a label would be pretty accurate.

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 11/5/2006 12:04:06 PM >

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to Aine)

RE: "Everyone has limits." - 11/5/2006 12:09:08 PM

Level

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Oh, yes.. regarding happiness.. ::chuckles:: I laugh a lot. I giggle even more. I have joy in my heart. I have more sex, more fun and more play than anyone I know and I'm head-over-heels in love with the same man for over 10 years. If I could bottle it and sell it on Ebay, 'happiness' as a label would be pretty accurate.

And that matters , and I am genuinely happy for you.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to BitaTruble)

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