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ORIGINAL: KatyLied

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I will say this, with the utmost respect, that I think that anyone that genuinely has no limits, has issues. Boy, I sat there a minute coming up with that . And they may need help.

That's where I fit in all of this.  I think it's good to have boundaries.  I think it's a way of protecting ourselves (and those whom we are responsible for) and that is a good thing. 

It is interesting to hear how people get to a "no limits" mindset.

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

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"I don't relate and could never understand the process of the green/yellow/red ongoing performance appraisal of the scene. The evaluating process required by the bottom prohibits the experience from generating any passion."

That's a rather narrow view of what safewords (or any communication) conveys... simple appraisal?  I have not encountered this "in-scene appraisal", though evidently you have.  Not sure why, but perhaps you would be well served to have asked.

 
Rover,
Try this argument; if you use a safe-word you have never dominated another person. You may think you are in charge, but by the very nature of a safe-word you ceded your ability to decide where the scene goes and/or when it stops. Narrow view? More like pragmatic without the diversion of semantic, or rationalization.

You obviously have imbued a term with control over you.  And for you, that must be the case, as I take you at your word.  But for me, and I would say a great many other people, a safeword is simply communication.  Don't call it a safeword if that term makes your skin crawl.  It's still communication.  What you as the Top do with the information communicated to you is still up to you.  There's nothing to be insecure about in that. 

Experience is more credible than theory. I have a zero tolerance rule concerning safe-words, and have had many enjoyable experiences along the way.

I would also have a zero tolerance for safewords, if they are used in the manner in which you have portrayed them (in-scene appraisal, for instance).  But given that I have never experienced such a thing, nor witnessed such a thing, I'll rely upon you to explain (if you know) what motivates a bottom to appraise your performance during the course of a scene? 

Everything else you posted was backpedaling. You either can or can't rely on a DM for safety. If you can't, a dungeon is no more safe than an hotel room, your, or the other person's home. You'll leave it to a DM to judge the depth of the cut in knife play? It's even more amazing that you'd recommend a DM protect you more than yourself or the person you are playing.

Backpedaling?  Really?  I didn't take it that way.  As I stated previously, on several occasions, a DM can make a scene safer, not guarantee complete safety.  I'm not sure why you would have such a difficult time with that statement.  In the example you used, a DM cannot judge the depth of the cut in knife play, but they can judge that the rusty WWII souvenier you pull out of your toybag is inappropriate for use in a cutting scene. 
 
You're absolutely right that the two people MOST responsible for safe play are yourself and the person you're playing with.  But you're absolutely wrong if you think that as a human being you're perfect and not capable of making mistakes, and that an extra set of eyes (or hands) is not valuable from time to time. 
 
Further to Jay Wiseman's study of scene related injuries... the number one injury to bottoms are head injuries, suffered when losing full control of their senses while restrained in an upright position, and being lowered to the ground by the Top who is surprised by the full weight of a limp body and drops them.  Number one injury to Tops are shoulder injuries suffered during that lowering (dropping) process.  You wanna tell me that the assistance of a DM in those situations is not a benefit and does not lend towards a safer play experience?  Really, you're being obstinant in the face of facts.

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Things go wrong, accidents happen, and we Tops/Dominants, although ever vigilant (presumably), cannot see or know everything and immediately.  How many throws of a bull whip to cause damage?  Better asked, how far (for example) can a tendon stretch before rupturing?  And once you notice that it has ruptured, much like the bull whip, can you "undo" it? 

 
All great reasons pointing to the false belief that a safe-word protects you.

No one that I know, least of all me, portrays safewords as some kind of force shield protection from all harm.  Silly statements like that do less to marginalize safewords than they do your logical assertions.  Evidently you really have an issue over the term, so if it makes you feel better we can call it something else.  How about we call it "talking"?

That's the point. Not the use/unuse but people believing the cloak of a safe-word protects you. Inherently they are dangerous, because both parties rely on them, sometimes to the exclusion of common sense. Well, maybe not so common.

What people believe that safewords are a cloak of protection?  Where are they so I can slap them upside the head?  How is the use of a communication term, denoting that something is wrong, inherently dangerous?  Seriously, I'd love to know (and please, dispense with the silly "cloak of protection" because you're the only one who has brought that concept into the conversation, and I have already, repeatedly, stipulated that safewords do no such thing).

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ORIGINAL: twicehappy

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ORIGINAL: Rover


I'm fond of saying that "stop you idiot or I'll call the police" is a very effective safeword. 

Lmao......

When asked by Scooter the first time we scened if i wanted to negotiate i said no i trusted him to read my reactions to anything just fine.
 
When asked if i had a safeword and if i wanted to use it i replied  no to both questions.
 
When he asked how he would know something was wrong i replied " If i say Fuck No or Fucking Stop you can be pretty sure i mean it".

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Yes, even "stop, I have a cramp" is a series of safewords

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ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

There was a question asked.. what would happen if I say 'no'.  If I 'could' I don't know what would happen. I can't imagine a request he would make which result in a negative answer from me. Maybe he would release me or divorce me. Maybe he would punish me. Maybe he would find someone who would say yes to whatever he demanded. Well, I just put this question to Himself and he responded.. "What would you say no to?" I just can't answer this question. I don't know how.

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ORIGINAL: roseofsheryn

I have to totally disagree with you here.  A person can have a "no limits" relationship without being mentally ill.  Before you can make that statelment you first have to know about their selection process.  I was a 24/7 slave with no limits but now am Switch that is predominately Dom. 
When I looked at Doms I certainly did not look at a Dom that would have different limits than me. I looked for one that would have the same limits and in that case there would be a "no limits" submission.  If I don't want to do skat I am not going to look for a Master that would be into that.   So if I know their limits and mine are compatable them I can with confidence say that I have no limits with them because I know they will not go there anyway. So anything that they would do to or with me or require of me would in fact be something I could or would be capable of doing.  This in no way means that I would have the same "no limits" standard with someone else.  So many forget that the selection process plays a key role in any relationship and because of that they can indeed have a "no limits" standard between them. So do they have no limits at all in their entire life?  No! and noone said that.  They have no limits between them.  You do not have to be mentally ill to have the capasity to trust someone completely and give them all of you if you know that on the most basic levels you are totally compatable.
Sharon

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Now, I'll add to your hypothetical and suggest if you want to put it to the test, write to him and offer to 'buy' me. He's a capitalist after all and it's said every man has his price. I believe myself to be priceless.. I further believe that Himself also views me as priceless but I could be wrong.

The offer would have to be more than two camels though, because he's been offered that already and turned it down.

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ORIGINAL: HollyS



I'm the one that asked this question.  I asked because to my mind there is a distinct difference between "I can't say no" and "I choose not to say no" -- a difference which you make pretty clear in your answer.  Even as you said "I couldn't..." you still were able to come up with several possibilities for what might happen were you to actually say no to something.  It's what you see as those possibilities that matter profoundly.  Look at your answers for what might happen and find a common theme. 

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It's interesting to me that when you asked Himself, His answer was another question: "What would you say no to?" 

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 It was a good thing for you to ask Himself, though I wish He had given you a direct answer rather than another question.  This isn't about "What would you say no to?"  It's about "What would Your reaction be if I did?"

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If you thought it useful, perhaps you could ask him again with a request for an answer reflective of what He feels he would really do. 

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An inability to say "no" is, like so many things, rooted in an "as if" belief -- "I must do X because if I were to do Y, then Z would happen."  It may be worth finding out whether the things you imagine might happen were you to say "No" have any real chance of happening.  Truly, He may have other ideas.

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What response do you see as inevitable were you to ever say no to something?

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ORIGINAL: Rover

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Yes, even "stop, I have a cramp" is a series of safewords

It most certainly is, julia.  Or "stop, I feel my surgically repaired elbow tearing".  But evidently, some people would not wish to hear that.
 
John

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ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I doubt we've been able to have a single thread about limits without reverting eventually to the chainsaw argument.

Can't we think of anything more creative than chainsaws?

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ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I doubt we've been able to have a single thread about limits without reverting eventually to the chainsaw argument.

Can't we think of anything more creative than chainsaws?

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am not afraid of arachnids

Chainsaws have sharp edges, they win the scary contest ... at least for me...

But I am more than willing to say "No Please Stop"... especially during interrogation scenes....MMMMMMMMMM

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ORIGINAL: Sinergy
Fail to answer any of these questions with a coherent response, and you will be punished as Zoot was for lighting the grail shaped beacon.

Sinergy

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ORIGINAL: ExtremeOwnerIL

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ORIGINAL: Sinergy
Fail to answer any of these questions with a coherent response, and you will be punished as Zoot was for lighting the grail shaped beacon.

Sinergy

That's not exactly a deterrent, considering what comes AFTER the punishment.

Regards,
EO