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RE: Showing you are a worthy Master - 12/10/2006 12:54:30 PM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Not trite Sir..just gave you information and you don't wish to accept it in any form be it agreement or disagreement. We all do it to a degree..however, there is a difference in not agreeing because you don't feel that way regarding a issue, and state your reasons why..versus just disagreeing with no reasoning behind it other than obvious arguement. I mean honestly Rover Sir..does it really matter if they are in dis-agreement with when a slave is a slave..when it can't even be established any more clearly elsewhere? Does it really matter that they call themselves Gorean or BDSM or M/s or whatever ontop of it?

If you don't agree that a slave can be a slave until owned..okies. If you think a slave can be a slave wether owned or not..okies. If you think this is just something Gorean and not BDSM or other simply because it's not part of your circle? Then disagree's because it is.

Honestly am more interested in what happens once the slave is owned versus what got her/him there in the first place. Thats the meat of the bones.

Sorry..the horse to water comment was actually not specific to you alone Sir but also generalized because none of us are going to agree with anything unless we choose to do so because it fits into our views and ideals of any given issue. I've been led to that water hole many of times, and subsequently died a theoretical death from thirst. :)

In the history of human slavery..what was it that took them from being free to being a slave? Ownership. Ownership by force or ownership by agreement it still required/requires ownership. What kept that ownership over them isn't really relevant to this specifically, and is a Whole different can of worms. This is why I can relate to both views on it. So there you have it. Not a thing to do with Gorean or BDSM or even M/s actually..but just slavery itself.

quote:

Whereas (insofar as I understand the explanation thus far) the Gorean collar is imbued with the ability to transform a free woman into a slave. 

From my understanding..and this might just muttle things up even more..lol. The collar does not signify that a girl is now a slave. The brand does. The collar shows who's slave she is/who owns her/who's property she is/if found please return to. In the books I think they were branded fairly quickly. Thats probably not going to happen as quickly outside of the book world since having it done right by someone that knows what they are doing or can do what the Owner wants isn't so easily found. Now that is just from the books that I understand. Because this isn't the books..a change may be present and include several variations of just using the collar..of just saying yes I'm his slave and him saying yes I'm her Master..might be none of or all or any combination there of.

Well Wishes
starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

< Message edited by starshineowned -- 12/10/2006 1:10:30 PM >

_____________________________

"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Showing you are a worthy Master - 12/10/2006 6:21:36 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		1) A slave is not an actual slave unless owned (see a dictionary)
2) I believe a Free woman can have a slave heart .
3) A Free woman and a slave can be one in the same person but are treated and thought of differently by me depending upon their status and actions.
4) I do not prove myself worthy to anyone, they will make the determination on their own, using whatever criteria they wish. I can only be me.
5) I will care about the opinion of the Free more so than I will a slave, the majority of the time.
6) I will add value to the opinion of a slave at my discretion.
7) There is a difference between the Gorean Lifestyle and the Gorean Philosophy.
8) You do not need to own a slave to be Gorean, so the M/s realtionship is not an essential part.

I think that should make things easy for anyone to understand and combine my thoughts. I have made it as concise as possible for those that have difficulty in understading but it seems still easy enough to find a nit in for others. One of my rules is that there is always an exception to every rule but that does not disprove the rule.

Orion

Edited to add 7 & 8

< Message edited by OrionTheWolf -- 12/10/2006 6:39:46 PM >

(in reply to starshineowned)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Showing you are a worthy Master - 12/10/2006 9:38:21 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Rover,

Enjoy your Bills game, as well as your other games. Not to mentioned your shared laugh with those in the cheap seats. I have spelled out my views, if you don't like them or fail to accpet them is of no further concern to me. The laugh and suggested agreement with the female seemed enough to express your opinion of anything I would possibly add anyway. I was about to add to your inquiry when I seen a few additional posts of yours. I have this crazy sense of distrust growing when it comes to your true intent. If that is a misplaced notion, then chock it up to a "well that sucks, no fair, damn I got robbed of my sunday after the Bills game entertainment."

Bull

Note: Goreans are most frequently put off to the comments with reference to living in the real world (as if we didn't already) or similar condesending remarks such as that. Most likely you'll find their willingness to exchange dialogue with you terminated at that point.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 12/10/2006 9:52:20 PM >

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Showing you are a worthy Master - 12/11/2006 12:15:39 AM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx
Note: Goreans are most frequently put off to the comments with reference to living in the real world (as if we didn't already) or similar condesending remarks such as that. Most likely you'll find their willingness to exchange dialogue with you terminated at that point.


Part of the problem here is that a lot of people who identify as Goreans really don't seem to live in the real world.  And folks from the BDSM community who have never taken the time to actually investigate the Gorean community don't know that these "Mighty Gorean Elvish Ninja Assassin Master" roleplaying types would be laughed off of a serious Gorean forum in record speed. 

There seems to be two very different types of "Goreans" out there.  The most common type to encounter online is the silly type.  The more serious type who does live in the real world, conducts himself according to carefully thought out principles of honor, knows the books are fiction but can successfully use them as a model for running a sustainable M/s household in the long term, that is a much rarer bird.  But they do exist.  Even if you don't agree with the things they believe, they shouldn't be confused with the silly people.  They're a completely different breed. 

I don't agree with the majority of Gorean beliefs, specifically the ones which are based in bad science.  But in general I have found the behavior and general conduct of serious philosophical Goreans (as opposed to the silly roleplayers) to be worthy of respect.  But it's true that if you poke them and generally behave poorly towards them because you have a bad association with the word "Gorean", they will probably be grumpy at you.  And rightfully so.

Unfortunately it's difficult for some people *not* to giggle at the words "Gorean Master" because they are most often accompanied by declarations that make it obvious that the "Gorean Master" in question is not living in the real world.  Sad but true.  The most visible and obvious people calling themselves "Goreans" online are not necssarily the best representatives.  But they may be the only "Goreans" that the average BDSM person ever encounters. 

Sorry, Bull.  LORD MASTER DOMINATE BLACKTHORN NIGHTDRAGON BLOODSMACK TEH MIGHTY ELVISH NINJA GOREAN ASSASSIN  is kind of a hard act to follow.   But that's what Goreans are pretty much stuck with, since there's not much that any group can do about its more embarrassing posers and hangers-on. 

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Showing you are a worthy Master - 12/11/2006 5:22:47 AM   
Kalira


Posts: 954
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Fort Wayne Indiana
Status: offline 		Well said Najakcharmer

_____________________________

Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
Seneca

Damnant Quod Non Intellegunt

(in reply to Najakcharmer)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Showing you are a worthy Master - 12/11/2006 5:45:33 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Rover,

Enjoy your Bills game, as well as your other games. Not to mentioned your shared laugh with those in the cheap seats. I have spelled out my views, if you don't like them or fail to accpet them is of no further concern to me. The laugh and suggested agreement with the female seemed enough to express your opinion of anything I would possibly add anyway. I was about to add to your inquiry when I seen a few additional posts of yours. I have this crazy sense of distrust growing when it comes to your true intent. If that is a misplaced notion, then chock it up to a "well that sucks, no fair, damn I got robbed of my sunday after the Bills game entertainment."

Bull

Note: Goreans are most frequently put off to the comments with reference to living in the real world (as if we didn't already) or similar condesending remarks such as that. Most likely you'll find their willingness to exchange dialogue with you terminated at that point.


Sorry you feel that way, Bull.  I haven't played any games with you, laughed at you, taken any cheap shots at you, called you any names, degraded your opinions or poked any fun at you at all.  In fact, I've not even said that I don't agree with your statements, just that I require further information and explanation in order to ascertain whether they make sense or not.  Consequently, all I have done is to ask some questions in hopes of understanding what you publicly posted.  Seems as though you're invalidating all those "we're misunderstood" and "others shouldn't put us down" posts by Goreans, as I've given you my full attention and taken you quite seriously.
 
Though this may be your version of a "graceful exit".  However, it would not speak well of you to ever imply that you (or Goreans) are misunderstood or not given serious consideration.  You have been given a legitimate opportunity, and you have shrunk from it. 
 
I can't imagine how you have a "growing distrust" of me, as most folks (whether they like me personally or not) would not describe me as distrustful.  Though it is common for people to dislike being held to account for what they say or do, and I do have the habit of calling a spade a spade. 
 
Personally, I think you have a growing sense that your views are indefensible from a logical point of view, and you lack the moxie to stand by what you believe (we all have things we believe that are illogical, but choose to believe anyway).  That would explain why you're so defensive and intimidated.  No need, though.  Anyone that knows me personally will tell you that I'm loveable. :)
 
As for the "living in the real world" reference you have alleged that I said to you, please point that out since I've read my posts to you twice now and fail to see where it was said.  Perhaps you were mistaken.
 
John
 
P.S. - Don't lament my Sunday afternoon entertainment.  By some miracle, the Bills won.

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Showing you are a worthy Master - 12/11/2006 8:16:15 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Rover,

 Since you attempted to challenge my manhood I’ll try this once more. You have made this easier to determine your intent. Much easier than I would have gathered you would. You seemed quite intelligent. The spinster is often seen engaging in tactics like yours here. You asked what was perceived as a legitimate question at first. My attempt to answer you was simply from the notion you seriously wanted to know my view, but none the less, I don’t think you weren’t after my answer anyway. The original answer was simple, a free woman is allowed to determine most anything she wants. If  she doesn’t find me worthy or suitable to be her master she just moves on and remains free, she keeps it to herself though, she doesn’t make a public declaration. If a free woman that truly follows Gorean belief is found contemptible she may in fact be shunned or more appropriately made a slave. Now I’m sure that your sitting and stirring over that one. Trust me, (since you say you don’t distrust) I have witnessed it where insolent free women have found a collar. They are also to be held accountable, they may then even be made worthy of a man. And they most often are. As for the slave though, in judging her master has she truly surrendered to the TPE (BDSM term, I believe)?  My post was explained to you and by more than just I, I defined myself at least to the degree I wished to define it. But several others, stepped in when you seemed hard headed or at the very least unable to grasp my Gorean point of view. It was asked and answered as a Judge would say. But in a sense of fairness, something else I don’t normally prescribe to, I’ll once again attempt to address your points.

I'm far from graceful, but don't underestimate my exit strategy. Your efforts are assisting me rather well. Your inability to comprehend my answer is not me shrinking away from anything. Do I have to force feed you the answer? Your being trustful was never in question; it’s your trustworthiness that has been raising the hairs on the back of my neck. I’ll define that for youà(making me suspicious of your intent.) It seems you had the intent now of establishing a predetermined notion or prejudice you had in reference to Goreans. As seem in the fact you call a spade a spade. I fail to see any other relevance for this comment. You haven’t held anyone accountable; you have simply demonstrated your immodest opinion of your own superiority. As well as your ability to not accept that answer you were given.

I believe I supported my idea well enough, those that supported either directly or indirectly what I was saying weren’t even Gorean. Did you have any Goreans support your claims? No in fact the only support you got was when Katylied made her comment. And as you LOL’ed , ( I believe that’s laughing) and shrugged off the fact I had not responded to your questions. ( Again, asked and answered.) I may have found other issues more pressing than yours. Not to mention the fact that you were answered. My moxie should not even be in question here. I stand in a hostile environment daily and post, where’s your moxie my good man. The Gorean threads are that way.à If I'm failing you and you really wanted a Gorean answer to your question you could have went over there. Many would surely be eager to assist you in your endeavors. If I was truly intimidated I’d not be here. I answer more questions in a days time about my chosen beliefs than you could ever imagine. And I know my ways are not the in thing for most. Yet here I stand in front of all. Like you, I’m nothing special. But I am not intimidated I have faced much more trying inquiries than yours here. I have decided to not speak to anyone that would list me as a hard limit, beyond that I speak to nearly everyone. I try to impart my views to those that are curious. I’m not a special education teacher though. Not everyone will take something away from my message. Don’t get mad at me because it confuses you. Also your being lovable has nothing to do with anything here apart from your hope to shoot down one of the bandits and hope to become some sort of  Sheriff of accountability. Your campaign of righteousness is falling on deaf ears with me.

Within your post made on 10 DEC 06 made at 08:08, you stated and I quote, “So lets stick with a more realistic scenario, since you and I live in the real world.” I live in all together real world and to imply I don’t is insulting. You see I have no trouble with reality, in fact I spend a good deal of time working to remove confusing issues from my chosen lifestyle, issues that seem implausible or far fetched. You’re the one that titles an unowned woman a slave (see Webster’s). I have spent a good deal of time in the Gorean community with this very issue. My intent was to alleviate the type of confusion you have here. Go read the threads.

As for your intentions, you may not have defined them in self admitted text, but intuition is not a lost art. If your motives were simply that of discovery why chastise anything I said at any point? Why bring out the point that you call a spade a spade? If you were attempting to learn and not discredit why would you need to keep harping an answered point. Spin it anyway you like, a disciplined Gorean slave will have no need, nor would she dare judge her master. It’s as simple as that. In finding someone worthy of you, denotes you find yourself superior in some way over them. Ask any Gorean slave if they feel even slightly superior to their master. Make sure she’s a Gorean slave though. This answer alone should finally spell this out for you. But, I’m not to optimistic at this point.

Bull

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Showing you are a worthy Master - 12/11/2006 8:38:38 AM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline 		LOL!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

It's the Gorean equivalent of "What up, dog?"

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Showing you are a worthy Master - 12/11/2006 8:42:26 AM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline 		i have had similar experiences from the submissive side of the fence...extremely valuable lessons.

quote:

ORIGINAL: leathersmith

All of the "unworthy" subs were sent to you for a reason. There is no coincidence in this. Consider it a training for you.       " Experience keeps a dear school but fools will in no other", or at least that is my opinion after 56 yrs of attendance.
"wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then" may be a better expression



(in reply to leathersmith)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Showing you are a worthy Master - 12/11/2006 9:04:11 AM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings Master Bull,

This one joins in at the end of the words on your post ...she hopes her intrusion into the words of two Free men are forgiven.

However, she is very familiar with Rover's thinking we real time Goreans are ...she believes the term was....chasing unicorns????

BTW, long time no see Rover, good to see you around ....this one found her pot of Gold at the end of the rainbow

she goes back to her corner now and shushes

May she wish the Free and slaves well

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Showing you are a worthy Master - 12/11/2006 9:56:07 AM   
MigViriato


Posts: 54
Joined: 11/27/2006
Status: offline 		Tal,

I was expecting to find a completly different discussion here but this one is interesting also.

From what I've read this is a simple question fo semantics for a gorean man being asked if he is worthy of his slave can be considered an insult as it is that slave that have to be worthy not the owners, when you talk about a girl considering if a man is worthy enough to be her owner that is were semantics come into play, if instead of worthy you would say if he is man enough or more plainly gorean enough ( if you are talking about a girl that knows enough about gor), and then the answer is yes a girl will see if that man is gorean enough for her or not and she may decide to beg the collar, mind that this only applies to free not slaves as slaves for definition don't have a choice and we do live in a real world and I know that ppl always have a choice but it is up to them to live by the principles or not and by judged accordingly.
I don't know any gorean owner that would not release  his slave if she asked we are not stupid or dumb, although many think so :), in my view it would be her loss.

"For the sake of argument, let's accept that she's a free woman when doing the judging, until such time as she's collared whereupon she is "transformed" (by means not stated) into a slave.  Evidently that is a meaningful distinction for reasons I do not understand. " quote from Rover's post

As for the mysticism that Rover refered I don't see it anywhere, maybe you choose the word wrong or didn't want to say that because implying that it takes mysticism to make a woman that now wear a collar into a slave is completely illogocal because that would be like saying that when you marry you are transformed into  spouse, same thing when a collar is placed on a women she is not transformed into a slave she becomes a slave that is her status now it is quite simple actually.

Be well

_____________________________

"What is good? All that heightens the feeling of power in man, the will to power, power itself. What is bad? All that is born of weakness. What is happiness? The feeling that power is growing, that resistance is overcome."
Friedrich Nietzsche

(in reply to fyreredsub)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Showing you are a worthy Master - 12/11/2006 10:07:07 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		Sorry Gorean's but your theory and pride is all just semantics. Free woman can decide if the person they might eventually be a slave to is worthy but once she calls herself a slave or others do, however it works, she does not have that right. Real world the woman is the same person before and after. Only in fantasy can you make such a huge distinction of a difference to actually think a woman has not decided her Gorean Master is worthy. It is 100% semantics and 0% reality.

Sorry Bull, but Rover started off being very nice to you but you chose to ignore his points and it looked very much because of this very issue.


_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to MigViriato)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Showing you are a worthy Master - 12/11/2006 10:17:25 AM   
Kalira


Posts: 954
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Fort Wayne Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

Real world the woman is the same person before and after

Maybe for you, yes, but not everyone follows the same philosophies that you do. Personally, I was not the same before and after. Before Master claimed me, I was free. Now, I am owned property. For myself, there is a huge difference between the two.
quote:

  Only in fantasy can you make such a huge distinction of a difference to actually think a woman has not decided her Gorean Master is worthy

Everyday, I prove my worthiness to Master in the hopes that he will allow me to continue in my slavery to him. Master only has to continue to be himself.  There is nothing fantasy about it at all.

Believe me, once you ignore all the role play idiots who tout at being Gorean, and actually meet some people in RL who believe in LIVING the PHILOSOPHIES that are contained in the writings; you will never mistake a role player for human again

_____________________________

Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
Seneca

Damnant Quod Non Intellegunt

(in reply to toservez)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Showing you are a worthy Master - 12/11/2006 11:18:02 AM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		greetings,

it is deja vu for some of us readers. 
just a different Gorean Master involved

people do Know when they are being talked down too and placated because they dont hold the same beliefs as others.

This girl is only a little bit the same since becoming owned as she is still very new to her collar and brand.
she will change if she wishes to remain Master's.
she will stop thinking like a free independant woman that calls the shots to her life and learn to think like the valuable property she is.

if she were going to stay the same,
why become Owned?  why have a Master to please?why not retain freedom?

she does NOT worry about if her Master is worthy, she concerns herself with her staying worthy.

Just because Gorean beliefs do not hold water to the vast majority makes no difference,helps  keep the population down

wishing you well




_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to toservez)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Showing you are a worthy Master - 12/11/2006 11:42:14 AM   
KCKitty


Posts: 7
Joined: 12/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

Given the explanation thus far (and to be fair, Bull hasn't had an opportunity to elaborate), I sense a distinction revolving around the collar itself.  In BDSM a collar is a representation, a symbol, devoid of any inherent "powers".   Whereas (insofar as I understand the explanation thus far) the Gorean collar is imbued with the ability to transform a free woman into a slave. 
 
That does, however, lead to another series of questions as to whether the power in a Gorean relationship resides in the collar or the Master, and whether Gor includes a certain amount of "mysticism" (I must confess ignorance on the subject) in which the collar has magical qualities.  Many folks in BDSM also weave mysticism into their lifestyle.
 
John


I hope you'll pardon my "butting in", but I can see both points that are trying to be made here.  If I may?

It isn't so hard to understand if you look at it using different terms.  Using an altered version of John's description above, let's see if this makes any more sense?

In marriage a wedding ring is a representation, a symbol, devoid of any inherent "powers".   Whereas to those who subscribe to the idea of matrimony, the wedding ring is imbued with the ability to transform a single woman into a wife. 

That does, however, lead to another series of questions as to whether the power in a marriage resides in the wedding ring or the official performing the ceremony, and whether those who marry believe in a certain amount of "mysticism" in which the wedding ring has magical qualities.

Does that help?

In case you don't see the analogy, before agreeing to marry (become a slave) a single woman (a free woman) has the freedom to make the decision and choose who to marry.  Once the marriage has taken place and she has her wedding ring (collar), it isn't that she is no longer a woman or incapable of judging her mate, it's just that she is now a wife (slave) and has made vows.  The deed is done and the time for judging is over.  Her wedding ring (collar) does not change who she is, but it does symbolize her commitment.


< Message edited by KCKitty -- 12/11/2006 11:54:46 AM >

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Showing you are a worthy Master - 12/11/2006 12:15:14 PM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

Sorry Gorean's but your theory and pride is all just semantics.


I disagree with most Gorean beliefs, specifically the ones that I feel are based on inaccurate premises about evolutionary biology.  But I don't think their philosophies or their lifestyle is "just semantics", or that it's appropriate (or courteous) to dismiss them as such.  They've got something that works for them, and it does work sustainably when it's a lifestyle and not an online chatroom populated by roleplaying wankers. 

The mistake I think that Goreans make is believing that their so-called "natural order" applies to everybody, and they tend to dredge up intrinsically flawed justifications for crudely flattening the bell curve.  Sexual, social and behavioral responses in any social mammal tend to be something of a wide bell curve that can be reasonably described as functional polymorphism (adaptive to multiple survival strategies in a changing environment).  No single segment of the bell curve, even at its highest point, can be an accurate representation of the population.  Loss of diversity in adaptive strategies whether they are physical, social or sexual tends to be a short road to extinction for any species.  In a nutshell, that's why I refer to the Gorean "natural order" as bad science.

But one may disagree and debate over the facts underlying a belief system without being dismissive of people or lifestyles that are working very well and sustainably for them.  Gorean beliefs are not "just" semantics.  Like evolutionary biology, it's a bit more complex than that. 

(in reply to toservez)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Showing you are a worthy Master - 12/11/2006 12:26:56 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings toserveez,

People make psychological transformations all of the time based upon many different things. If it were truly 0% reality, then why does it work? I believe the difference is in whether a slave is trained as a Gorean slave (kajira) or allowed to follow many of the other philosophies that are different. It all depends upon the mindset and heart of the individual.

The crux of what Bull said comes down to this; the opinion of slaves matter very little to a Gorean unless they wish to put value upon it. Call it ego, caveman thinking or whatever else you wish, to make yourself feel better, I don't really care. The opinions of the Free are usually considered more valuable to Goreans, than those of a slave so when a girl makes a decision to beg a collar she is technically Free and her opinion given more value. If she is accepted then she is a slave and now her opinion has less value.

The other difference is that to me the person is not the same person. The one before had rights and the slave does not. The one before I gave more value to their opinion, and now I do not give as much value (most of the time). These are the customs and lifestyle Bull was speaking of. You can disagree with them, fine, live your life as you please. Are they wrong for you? Probably but you have to determine that. Are they wrong for me? No, they have actually worked well for me. Are they wrong for the slave in question? That is yet to be determined.

Unlike Bull, I am not going to continue this debate in earnest here, as I do not have the time or inclination to teach those that have no desire to learn for themselves by reading the books and studying the customs and philosophies. You have chosen your path and I have chosen mine. If you wish to discuss them further and ask about Gorean ways, come to the Gorean boards and you will get many different opinions as we all are different individuals.

Orion
Master of the Really, Real Red Ninja Council

Edited to correct spelling

< Message edited by OrionTheWolf -- 12/11/2006 12:34:10 PM >

(in reply to toservez)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Showing you are a worthy Master - 12/11/2006 12:32:16 PM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

Sorry Gorean's but your theory and pride is all just semantics.


I disagree with most Gorean beliefs, specifically the ones that I feel are based on inaccurate premises about evolutionary biology.  But I don't think their philosophies or their lifestyle is "just semantics", or that it's appropriate (or courteous) to dismiss them as such.  They've got something that works for them, and it does work sustainably when it's a lifestyle and not an online chatroom populated by roleplaying wankers. 

The mistake I think that Goreans make is believing that their so-called "natural order" applies to everybody, and they tend to dredge up intrinsically flawed justifications for crudely flattening the bell curve.  Sexual, social and behavioral responses in any social mammal tend to be something of a wide bell curve that can be reasonably described as functional polymorphism (adaptive to multiple survival strategies in a changing environment).  No single segment of the bell curve, even at its highest point, can be an accurate representation of the population.  Loss of diversity in adaptive strategies whether they are physical, social or sexual tends to be a short road to extinction for any species.  In a nutshell, that's why I refer to the Gorean "natural order" as bad science.

But one may disagree and debate over the facts underlying a belief system without being dismissive of people or lifestyles that are working very well and sustainably for them.  Gorean beliefs are not "just" semantics.  Like evolutionary biology, it's a bit more complex than that. 




I just want to clarify although I do not think it was that cloudy, I do not think all things Gorean is semantics. I think that a slave does not have the write to judge a Gorean Master worthy as purely semantics.

This thread is starting to remind me of a political thread. Both sides completely ignore points that do not fit into their beliefs and it quickly goes into name calling.


_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to Najakcharmer)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Showing you are a worthy Master - 12/11/2006 12:51:48 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I just wanna know one damned thing. Did anyone ever determine if this bull guy really talks the way he types????

If so, I want to find out if he is the sorta guy he looks like he is ( pig farmer from Iowa) and in what county. I often get "elected" to attend the annual Christmas pork producers dinner as a representative of the company I work for. If I knew I could stalk this guy and watch him talk to other pig farmers like that, it would be worth the agony of having to go.

"Tal Master Harry, how doth the slave pig fare?" omg that would be awsome

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 12/11/2006 12:52:11 PM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to toservez)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Showing you are a worthy Master - 12/11/2006 12:55:20 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Hello girl,

I have yet to see where Rover has offered me an opinion in contrast to mine. But the last 6 posts or so is why I did try to end my part in this thread. I don't want a Gor against the BDSM war to ensue. The fact is that not only do Goreans and other lifestyles view "worth" different, we also view just what it is to be a slave differently. You can defend Rover's views, questions or comments as civil as you choose, he may not come straight out and state Gor as a hard limit, but he might as well have. If your missing his objective you may see him as innocent as well. He isn't fooling me. Did I call him out?  Yes. Was that less than polite? Perhaps. I attempted to answer him on several occasions. He chose to ignore my point, not I his. He only had a question, never a point. At least from what I seen. I will say Orion has a good point though. If anyone needs me, I'll be in the Gorean forums. It seems I did learn something through all of this.

Serve your new master well,

Bull

(in reply to toservez)
Profile   Post #: 100
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