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RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/1/2005 12:05:36 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffnecksbabygir
i don't think we can compare a D/s relationship, as i see it, [...], or to slavery pre civil war era....that's not relavent at all... a slave by that definition was not in a TPE relationship, that was completely different than what we are speaking of here....

I don't think it gets any more TPE then being owned in the eyes of the law of the nation you live in.

Again, this is just an issue of what you think of "ownership" vs. what I think of as "ownership". My idea of "ownership" has much more in common with what it meant in the pre-Civil War south then marriage. Your idea of "ownership" has much more in common with marriage then pre-Civil War south slavery.

In your eyes, your husband "owns" you...though that "ownership" doesn't really mean anything more then that you are commited to him. In my eyes, a husband is a companion, friend, lover, but not usually an "owner."

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to ruffnecksbabygir)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/1/2005 12:06:06 PM

Posts: 11766
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quote:

They were more "owned" then anyone on this board

how is anyone more "owned" than another? according to your own definitions, if you own a slave for an afternoon or for the rest of your life, it is the same level of ownership, right?

as to your reference of the terminology in your other post--

quote:

It seems to me that what we have is a few people who live (mostly) a number 4 type of D/s relationship giving advice those who need/desire a number 2 and/or 3 type relationship.

This is such a common conflict on these boards...and one which simply will not be resolved in any meaningful way, other than to say that people are different.

what we have here is not a "number 4 type" but Owners and some that are owned, giving advice to someone who asked if a married person could be owned by someone other than her husband.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 3/1/2005 12:11:09 PM >

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/1/2005 12:15:01 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: songbird26

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
How then do you explain that actual slaves in the pre-Civil War south were allowed to marry?

They were owned first, and then permitted to marry within the constraints of that ownership.

How does that make any difference? If a married slave were purchased and the owner still allowed her to be married how would that be any different then if the slave were first purchased and then allowed to marry?

Either way, the Master is giving his blessing to the marriage.

In Celestia's situation, she must be rather picky in the Master she chooses, as she must find one who has no issue with allowing her to be married. The is really a condition of who she picks as a Master. Something that wasn't allowed in the pre-Civil War south, but that is what makes this kind of slavery consensual...and legal. *smile*

quote:

I assume (though I don't know) that when married free people were sold into slavery, that sale rendered the marriage void.

Only if the new Master decided that he didn't want his slave to be married.

Most of the time, these marriages were no more than "jumping the broom" ceremonies, and were never recognized in the eyes of the law. Yet there are stories of the husband slave walking 20 miles a day to be with his family, who were owned by another Master.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to songbird26)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/1/2005 12:16:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: songbird26
Would the 'slave' divorce the husband if ordered by the 'owner'? Is it really 'slavery' if you say "I'll do anything you command, except in areas x, y and z of my life?" I honestly don't know; I've never pretended to be anything but a sub, and an unruly one at that, but if I were thinking of myself in terms of 'owner/slave' I'd have to think long and hard about these issues.

I don't see it as being any different, the sequence of events, but I can understand how it might affect what others think.

For me? If the Owner told me to end the relationships I have now, I would, and that won't change even if I am allowed to be married. One of the things I have briefly touched on with the boyfriend (VERY briefly, we're nowhere near seriously even talking moving in together, let alone marriage) would be the concept of children and whether I would a) be allowed/ordered to have them and b) who the Owner would choose as the father, as that would factor above any desires the husband had regarding children. Obviously I don't need to be married to be a mother, but it made sense to discuss nontheless. The husband for me is a life partner, not to interfere or be in any contradiction to the Owner.

It IS a serious thing for a slave to have such a huge responsibility as marriage in addition to being owned, only slightly less serious than a slave to have the responsibility of a mother (can a slave also be a parent?). But I don't think it automatically negates ownership, as long as the Owner allows it.

(in reply to songbird26)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/1/2005 12:21:27 PM

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TDW - I knew you'd weigh in on this one!

Before the "War of Northern Aggression", slaves were not "married". They were property and, although permitted to be consensually joined, did not have any rights or authority over that union, nor over any offspring. Couples could be split up at Master's will, and children could be sold off, separated from their parents, or even killed, if it suited the "owner".

Likewise, slaves could be "bred" with one another (regardless of the individuals' wishes)to produce favorable traits (large size, docile temperament, etc), just like any other "livestock". "Uppity" slaves were routinely emasculated, not only as a warning to others, but to insure that their flaws would not contaminate the "stock".

My perspective on this matter is that the person really calling the shots, when push comes to shove, determines whether a person can be considered a self-slave or a submissive. If it comes from the top, it a slave, from the bottom, a submissive.

Thanks,

Hickory

< Message edited by Hickory -- 3/1/2005 12:22:03 PM >

_____________________________

Nullum magnum ingenium sine mixtura dementia.
There is no great genius without a mixture of madness.
-Aristotle

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/1/2005 12:22:38 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

They were more "owned" then anyone on this board

how is anyone more "owned" than another? according to your own definitions, if you own a slave for an afternoon or for the rest of your life, it is the same level of ownership, right?

I'm sorry, but there is a huge difference in consensual slavery and the kind that was practiced in the pre-Civil War south. That kind of non-consensual, government sanctioned ownership is real ownership. Slaves back then were owned in a way that is not comprable to a consensual relationship.

quote:

what we have here is not a "number 4 type" but Owners and some that are owned, giving advice to someone who asked if a married person could be owned by someone other than her husband.

Well...I see a lot of number 4 in your response and your relationship. It is love based, and quite extrodinarily and happily so. Your ownership is tinted through that filter...not that there is anything wrong with that.

All I am saying as that those who have rejected number 4 type relationships may have a diffrent take.

Taggard

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/1/2005 12:26:45 PM

ruffnecksbabygir

Posts: 412
Joined: 1/4/2005
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taggard,
no, i do not believe a husband owns his wife....i do however believe that if a woman is married and seeking to be owned by a Master outside of the marriage it is no different than looking for a lover and having an affair.....same goes for men.
Doesn't matter if you wish to call that man your lover or your master, he is still not the man you are married to.....you can sit there and say you are just being true to your submissive nature and all that, but the reality is you are having an affair, plain and simple....is it right or wrong, certainly NOT for me to decide, that's definately not my point here...the question is can a married woman be owned by a Master, you can pretend all you want, he can collar you and you can see eachother and play together...but is that Master truly able to say he owns her? is she honestly able to say that she is devoted to her Master and has given herself to him? of course not.

Slavery pre civil war times was NOT safe sane nor consensual, so it does not compare to a D/s relationship.

_____________________________

~hugs~
Babygirl

:Disclaimer: The above is only this slave's opinion:

"And Those Who Danced Were Thought To Be Quite Insane By Those Who Could Not Hear The Music" -- Angela Monet

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/1/2005 12:32:05 PM

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffnecksbabygir
you can sit there and say you are just being true to your submissive nature and all that, but the reality is you are having an affair, plain and simple....

I find this amusing due to my situation.

The Owner has a sub in Boston. She is married. Her husband is my Boston partner. I am also lovers with her. They each also have other independent partners and attend poly functions and parties together sometimes.

Who is having an affair with who? I'm the only one considered a slave in this situation, BTW, so this isn't relevant to the specific topic at hand.

(in reply to ruffnecksbabygir)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/1/2005 12:34:02 PM

Posts: 11766
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quote:

That kind of non-consensual, government sanctioned ownership is real ownership.

because it is non-consensual or goverment sanctioned doesn't make it "more" or "real", just different.

quote:

I see a lot of number 4 in your response and your relationship. It is love based, and quite extrodinarily and happily so.

Actually, ours is a mixture of your number 2, 3 and 4 type relationship schism, with virtually no interest in the number 1 type player.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/1/2005 12:34:12 PM

Posts: 72
Joined: 1/16/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

I assume (though I don't know) that when married free people were sold into slavery, that sale rendered the marriage void.

Only if the new Master decided that he didn't want his slave to be married.

*grin* Exactly! The Master had complete control over every aspect of the slave's life, including marital status. The slave could stay married with the Master's permission, but should that Master change his mind at some point, well, then, poof, no more marriage for the slave! (I don't actually usually draw the pre-Emancipation parallel with consensual current 'slavery,' since to me it's different to the point of irrelevancy on the fundamental level of consent and legality, but I'm running with the example you gave). If the married 'slave' is willing to go to that level of obedience and surrender of choice and will, and put the will of the 'owner' in a place of more importance than even the success or health of her marriage (no matter if the Master has indicated that he will not interfere in that sphere!) then I'd say yep, married 'slaves' can indeed be 'owned'. 'Ownership', to me, is all-encompassing and must be accepted in all situations of life by the 'slave' as the ultimate last word; that third-party-input I mentioned in my earlier reply wouldn't be compatible with that.

Really, I'm just arguing semantics at this point, though. I think it's an individual choice, as individual as whether one considers oneself a submissive or a 'slave,' or even kinky at all. Some people may be able to make it work! I have no idea. But I'd weigh in on the odds being stacked against it.

< Message edited by songbird26 -- 3/1/2005 12:38:11 PM >

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/1/2005 12:36:30 PM

ruffnecksbabygir

Posts: 412
Joined: 1/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffnecksbabygir
you can sit there and say you are just being true to your submissive nature and all that, but the reality is you are having an affair, plain and simple....

I find this amusing due to my situation.

The Owner has a sub in Boston. She is married. Her husband is my Boston partner. I am also lovers with her. They each also have other independent partners and attend poly functions and parties together sometimes.

Who is having an affair with who? I'm the only one considered a slave in this situation, BTW, so this isn't relevant to the specific topic at hand.

Obviously i am refering to couples, not polyamore relationships...not swingers, not "open relationship", i am talking about a married man and woman.... a spouse searching outside of their marriage for an owner, that was the original question, not a poly type situation which is completely irrelevent to the question posted.

_____________________________

~hugs~
Babygirl

:Disclaimer: The above is only this slave's opinion:

"And Those Who Danced Were Thought To Be Quite Insane By Those Who Could Not Hear The Music" -- Angela Monet

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/1/2005 12:44:15 PM

Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alexander
I have a tendency to love my submissive. Maybe that needs to be controlled as part of self-mastery, who knows. Forget the whole debate about submissives inevitably falling in love with their masters. Reverse it.

I just don't know. I can't separate it from my own possessive streak. What matters is what’s inside you.
Alex.

I love the way you think Alex, because it makes complete sense to me, so in thinking that way, it is not possible for a person who is married to be a slave to another: I personally consider the covenant of marriage it's own slavery of sorts (I mean that in the most romantic way possible, lol).

Taggard however has stated on different occasions/in different ways that is is possible, and I believe him.
My position is that while it is not my thing, if you and your owner can control your emotions and avoid the kind of emotions that make you wish you were together connecting on a different level, than it's a workable situation. Good luck in searching for what you want. M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to Alexander)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/1/2005 12:46:27 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: songbird26
Of course, this all depends on how you personally view 'ownership' and how far you personalize and internalize the legal fiction of same.

Exactly!!! From my point of view, I am working towards a real and true ownership relationship. Certain things, like 24/7 availability and an emotional relationship, are just not important to me, so I can create my fictional slavery and those extraneous things just don't matter.

I don't need them, so I will never ask for them, and she will never have to face the question "who is really in charge". We can both internalize the fiction that she belongs to me fully, and both be satisfied in the relationship.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to songbird26)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/1/2005 12:55:44 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffnecksbabygir
no, i do not believe a husband owns his wife....i do however believe that if a woman is married and seeking to be owned by a Master outside of the marriage it is no different than looking for a lover and having an affair.....same goes for men.

Wouldn't there have to be sex for it to be an affair? Or is simply giving ownership of yourself enough to make it an affair?

quote:

but is that Master truly able to say he owns her? is she honestly able to say that she is devoted to her Master and has given herself to him? of course not.

Why not? Please elaborate on this thought, if you would...

quote:

Slavery pre civil war times was NOT safe sane nor consensual, so it does not compare to a D/s relationship.

Huh? What does SSC have to do with D/s? SSC is a good idea (well, of course you have the RACK folks who say that even Slave David thinks SSC is a bad idea), but it certainly isn't a defining characteristic of D/s...

Taggard

< Message edited by TallDarkAndWitty -- 3/1/2005 1:25:06 PM >

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to ruffnecksbabygir)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/1/2005 1:00:50 PM

ruffnecksbabygir

Posts: 412
Joined: 1/4/2005
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quote:

Exactly!!! From my point of view, I am working towards a real and true ownership relationship. Certain things, like 24/7 availability and an emotional relationship, are just not important to me, so I can create my fictional slavery and those extraneous things just don't matter.

I don't need them, so I will never ask for them, and she will never have to face the question "who is really in charge". We can both internalize the fiction that she belongs to me fully, and both be satisfied in the relationship.

Taggard

ok, i think i finally get what you're saying taggard, not that you haven't expressed yourself well in the past but this post was very clear....just curious now, hope you don't mind the personal question, well if you do i am sure you'll let me know *grins* any particular reason you do not want a 24/7 relationship....and please, don't think i am trying to change yours or anyones mind, i am truly just curious and interested in knowing what goes on in the minds of others, that's all.

_____________________________

~hugs~
Babygirl

:Disclaimer: The above is only this slave's opinion:

"And Those Who Danced Were Thought To Be Quite Insane By Those Who Could Not Hear The Music" -- Angela Monet

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/1/2005 1:02:10 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: songbird26
If the married 'slave' is willing to go to that level of obedience and surrender of choice and will, and put the will of the 'owner' in a place of more importance than even the success or health of her marriage (no matter if the Master has indicated that he will not interfere in that sphere!) then I'd say yep, married 'slaves' can indeed be 'owned'.

Yup...that is the exact kind of relationship I, and I think Celestia, are looking for. Of course, she wouldn't want to belong to someone who would risk the success or health of her relationship, so she must choose wisely. I, not wanting to risk the success or health of my slave's marriage, would not demand things of her that would risk it.

Not much different then the slaves who give themeselves to their owners but only after they have come to trust that their owners will not ask them to do anything damaging.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to songbird26)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/1/2005 1:03:09 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

...

< Message edited by TallDarkAndWitty -- 3/1/2005 1:06:59 PM >

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/1/2005 1:05:16 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Actually, ours is a mixture of your number 2, 3 and 4 type relationship schism, with virtually no interest in the number 1 type player.

Yep yep...from what I know of you that completely fits. I swing more the 1, 2 and 3 with virtually no interest in number 4. It colors how we look at relationships...

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/1/2005 1:09:55 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffnecksbabygir
any particular reason you do not want a 24/7 relationship....

I do want a 24/7 relationship, just not a D/s based one. I have found that I want my primary relationship to be one that does not come with a power exchange dynamic.

Really more the results of trial and error then anything I have ever thought about or can explain.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to ruffnecksbabygir)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/1/2005 1:22:31 PM

Posts: 689
Joined: 8/5/2004
From: Florida
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I would just like to say after reading all this is.......where in the heck would a slave find a mate willing to marry them when there is an Owner involved unless that mate wants to be owned as well?!?!

_____________________________

~ann~

It's not the men in my life that count, it's the life in my men.--Mae West

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

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