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RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/7/2007 9:32:23 AM

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Again, the lawfullness of Fonda's actions is dependent on whether the USs actions were Lawful.

That hinges on if Diem's government was Lawful, specifically after refusing to obey the UN.

So, was Diem's Government Lawful? If so, why wasn't Hussein, since BOTH governments refused to obey UN mandates.

Actually there is no requirement that the US be commited to war or any other action for a treason charge.
It's your actions that determine whether or not you have commited treason.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articleiii.html

So, the people who supported Diem's Unlawful Government in the United States are the ones committing treason?

Remember, it all comes down to "WHY IS THE US SUPPORTING A CRIMINAL IN VIETNAM, BUT OVERTHROWING ONE IN IRAQ?" when BOTH Diem and Hussein were guilty of refusing to comply with UN Mandates.

IF the US was wrong to support Diem and South Vietnam, isn't ANY resistance justified?

I think your failing to grasp the concept of treason. Its an act commited against your own country. Acts commited against foriegn powers are policy decisions.

"IF the US was wrong to support Diem and South Vietnam, isn't ANY resistance justified?"

No giving aid and comfort to the enemy is never justified. You want to protest,fine, or work to change the goverment here to reflect your opinion, great. But to go to a foriegn country, put on parts of their uniform, take pictures of yourself in their guns ... nope your a traitor...

Isn't "THE ENEMY" the people disobeying the UN MANDATES?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sternhand4)

RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/8/2007 9:01:33 PM

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pantera

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: pantera

So, why are we talking about this traitor chick again?

pantera:
Traitor chick??? I am curious how she can be a traitor. She was exercising her first ammendment right. We had not declared war on Viet Nam. We were illegally in their country killing their people. Is the first ammendment only for those who agree with you.
thompson

Hey- I'm just exercising my first amendment right to say what I think about her - or is the 1st amendment only for those who agree with you? (and don't like capitalism, blame america while they're at it)

pantera:
If you say something that is not true about someone in print it is called libel. Congress (which is the only group that according to the constitution is authorized to declare war) had not and did not declare war. If you are unhappy with the truth you should contact your representative. Dressing a pig in a tutu does not make it Baryshnikov. Calling Jane Fonda a trator seems to speak more to your lack of knowledge of the Viet Nam war than it does the reality of the situation.
thompson

(in reply to pantera)

RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/8/2007 9:04:39 PM

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Uhhhmmmmmmmm, just a question buuuuuuuuuttttttt, didn't that happen just a little more that a few years ago??

Nothing like dwelling in the past.

LaTigresse:
I have heard that "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"
Like Yogi said "Its like deja vu all over again".
thompson

(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/8/2007 9:12:08 PM

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Evening,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Check your email.

The location of those is in an email? Cool.

So you download MsMilitaryComplex for Internet Explorer?

Sinergy

p.s. Hate to say it, but it sounds like you dont know how to stand up and admit that you screwed the pooch with your post.

Dont worry, Monkeyboy taught us that if you smirk and deny long enough, people will become disinterested in your machinations.

No need to smile and deny anything. The only mistake I made was in my wording, as I never went through Corps bootcamp. I enlisted in Uncle Sam's Canoe club, and at reup I transfered branches. Discussing specifics about my duty stations or billeting, is reserved for private discussions. Hence an email.

I find it much easier and wiser to discuss personal issues with somebody in private (well as private as email can be via this medium). If you have an issue with anything I have said personally, feel free to email me. If not then let's stick to the topic, and debate its merits.

I wish you well,
Thadius

The validity of the statement by Thadius can be checked by calling your local U.S. Marine corps recruiter. Who will verify that all enlisted marines must go through marine corps boot camp...no exceptions.
thompson

(in reply to Thadius)

RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/8/2007 9:19:05 PM

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Again, the lawfullness of Fonda's actions is dependent on whether the USs actions were Lawful.

That hinges on if Diem's government was Lawful, specifically after refusing to obey the UN.

So, was Diem's Government Lawful? If so, why wasn't Hussein, since BOTH governments refused to obey UN mandates.

Actually there is no requirement that the US be commited to war or any other action for a treason charge.
It's your actions that determine whether or not you have commited treason.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articleiii.html

So, the people who supported Diem's Unlawful Government in the United States are the ones committing treason?

Remember, it all comes down to "WHY IS THE US SUPPORTING A CRIMINAL IN VIETNAM, BUT OVERTHROWING ONE IN IRAQ?" when BOTH Diem and Hussein were guilty of refusing to comply with UN Mandates.

IF the US was wrong to support Diem and South Vietnam, isn't ANY resistance justified?

I think your failing to grasp the concept of treason. Its an act commited against your own country. Acts commited against foriegn powers are policy decisions.

"IF the US was wrong to support Diem and South Vietnam, isn't ANY resistance justified?"

No giving aid and comfort to the enemy is never justified. You want to protest,fine, or work to change the goverment here to reflect your opinion, great. But to go to a foriegn country, put on parts of their uniform, take pictures of yourself in their guns ... nope your a traitor...

Sternhand4:

Let me see if I understand you clearly if she protest here and thus gives
"aid and comfort to the enemy" it is ok but if she goes there and does it is treason? If this is what you mean then it seems to be a pretty narrow difference.
I am not trying to put words in your mouth just want to understand what you mean.
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 2/8/2007 9:21:53 PM >

(in reply to Sternhand4)

RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/8/2007 10:22:48 PM

Posts: 422
Joined: 3/6/2005
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Way back I posted that while protesting here is a right, it comes with a cost. These protests are used as propaganda for recruitment and fuel for our enemy's. It gives them hope.
Jane did more than speak outat a rally.

I hope that clears it up...

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/8/2007 10:48:48 PM

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

Way back I posted that while protesting here is a right, it comes with a cost. These protests are used as propaganda for recruitment and fuel for our enemy's. It gives them hope.
Jane did more than speak outat a rally.

I hope that clears it up...

Sternhand4:
Actually no it does not really clear anything up. If it is ok here why is it not ok there? How is it different ? When Bob Hope and all the celebreties he brought with him demonstrated in favor of the war. They did it in country so why is it different for Jane Fonda to demonstrate against the war in country? I find myself in a funny position of defending someone whom I deplore....not for what she did but for recanting it so she could pimp her latest movie. So while I support and defend what she did in 72 I think she is a two faced phony for recanting it for monitary reasons. But then I was pretty broken up when I found out about Santa Clause too. When we were young the good guys always wore white hats and rode on white stallions. From time to time I like to reread "Profiles in Courage" and think of the great men who sacrificed their lives, fortunes and careers for a principle. Muhammadd Ali is a hero of mine...he refused the draft and lost not only his career but the right to even work at his chosen profession.
One of the reasons we join the profession of arms is to protect and preserve the constitution. If we only defend it for those who agree with us it makes a mockery of the deaths of our brothers in arms.
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 2/8/2007 10:53:37 PM >

(in reply to Sternhand4)

RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/8/2007 11:24:16 PM

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Joined: 3/6/2005
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Politics end at the waters edge....
You don't criticise the president when he's abroad... or when your on foreign soil... ask the dixie chicks how it works.

Look at the pics of jane in hanoi,, she did more than speaking out.

Your not serious when comparing Bob Hope ( travels to support troops) to Jane are you?

I respect Ali too, I dont agree with him but he took a stand and paid the price.

S

< Message edited by Sternhand4 -- 2/8/2007 11:27:30 PM >

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/9/2007 5:23:02 AM

Posts: 1733
Joined: 1/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
The validity of the statement by Thadius can be checked by calling your local U.S. Marine corps recruiter. Who will verify that all enlisted marines must go through marine corps boot camp...no exceptions.
thompson

Unless, of course, one chooses a nice, safe military job like Navy Hospital Corpsmen.

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/9/2007 7:21:43 AM

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

Way back I posted that while protesting here is a right, it comes with a cost. These protests are used as propaganda for recruitment and fuel for our enemy's. It gives them hope.
Jane did more than speak outat a rally.

I hope that clears it up...

My reading of the Declaration of Independence says we have a whole lot more than the right to protest, when the government is dysfunctional.

And what's more dysfunctional than supporting an unlawful government which is refusing to obey the UN Mandates specified previously?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sternhand4)

RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/9/2007 7:27:13 AM

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

Way back I posted that while protesting here is a right, it comes with a cost. These protests are used as propaganda for recruitment and fuel for our enemy's. It gives them hope.
Jane did more than speak outat a rally.

I hope that clears it up...

Sternhand4:
Actually no it does not really clear anything up. If it is ok here why is it not ok there? How is it different ?

It's different because Jane Fonda got PRESS when she did it, as opposed to the lack of coverage the mainstream media had usually provided.

I get the impression the idea a lot of people have is "Protest all you want, but when you're actually getting press and/or being effective, cointelpro will take your ass down."

Witness NYC2004.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/9/2007 7:34:12 AM

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

Politics end at the waters edge....
You don't criticise the president when he's abroad... or when your on foreign soil... ask the dixie chicks how it works.

Worked out pretty well for the Dixie Chicks.

1) They were proven by history to be accurate.

2) Last tour mostly sold-out, and

3) FIVE Grammy Nominations.

Right. Sucks to be them.

* 2007: Album of the Year - Taking the Long Way
* 2007: Record of the Year - "Not Ready to Make Nice"
* 2007: Song of the Year - "Not Ready to Make Nice"
* 2007: Best Country Album - Taking the Long Way
* 2007: Best Country Performance by a Duo or Group with Vocal - "Not Ready to Make Nice"

The 2007 Grammy awards are pending and will be announced on February 11.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sternhand4)

RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/9/2007 7:35:19 AM

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

Politics end at the waters edge....

This statement seems rather idiotic.

Bob Hope et al went to Vietnam to support an undeclared police action inflicted on an indigenous population by the US political structure.

Jane Fonda went to Vietnam to protest an undeclared police action inflicted on an indigenous population by the US political structure.

In both cases, politics did NOT end at the water's edge, unless the water you are referring to is the Tonkin Gulf.

For a rationalization to work it has to be fairly applied to all situations, not just the one you want to apply it to.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Sternhand4)

RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/9/2007 8:28:12 AM

Posts: 422
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

Politics end at the waters edge....

This statement seems rather idiotic.

Bob Hope et al went to Vietnam to support an undeclared police action inflicted on an indigenous population by the US political structure.

Jane Fonda went to Vietnam to protest an undeclared police action inflicted on an indigenous population by the US political structure.

In both cases, politics did NOT end at the water's edge, unless the water you are referring to is the Tonkin Gulf.

For a rationalization to work it has to be fairly applied to all situations, not just the one you want to apply it to.

Sinergy

Bob went to entertain and support our troops in the field, not a political act..Bringing pretty girls improves moral..
The USO supports the troops.

(in reply to Sinergy)

RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/9/2007 8:31:59 AM

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
The validity of the statement by Thadius can be checked by calling your local U.S. Marine corps recruiter. Who will verify that all enlisted marines must go through marine corps boot camp...no exceptions.
thompson

Unless, of course, one chooses a nice, safe military job like Navy Hospital Corpsmen.

WyrdRich:
a navy hospital corpsman is a pretty safe job.
An FMF corpsman is somewhat of a different story.
The former is just another squid...the later is a very special squid who is not only allowed to drink with marines but also invited to drink with marines...and never pays for his drinks...If you will walk with us and not carry a gun then you will drink with us and not carry a wallet.
thompson

(in reply to WyrdRich)

RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/9/2007 9:00:49 AM

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Joined: 11/17/2004
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hanoi jane/jihad jane, should be repatriated to her homeland of vietnam. Let her live under the conditions that she campaigned for. I have up close and personal knowledge of the vietnam war, and regardless of whether we agree on political aspects of a conflict, if our US troops are in harms way we should never engage in activities that would be considered treasonous if a war was declared. Our troops deserve our support regardless of how they got into the fight. And the bitch will not be allowed to use the Vietnam Memorial in DC as a starting point for a protest march to the capitol on March 17th.

(in reply to Sternhand4)

RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/9/2007 1:45:14 PM

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrJae

hanoi jane/jihad jane, should be repatriated to her homeland of vietnam. Let her live under the conditions that she campaigned for. I have up close and personal knowledge of the vietnam war, and regardless of whether we agree on political aspects of a conflict, if our US troops are in harms way we should never engage in activities that would be considered treasonous if a war was declared. Our troops deserve our support regardless of how they got into the fight. And the bitch will not be allowed to use the Vietnam Memorial in DC as a starting point for a protest march to the capitol on March 17th.

MstrJae:
Your adumbration of Ms. Fondas position shows your lack of kowledge of this topic. She is from the U.S. not Viet Nam. She never campaigned for their system of government...she campaigned for us to leave them alone and let them solve their own problems.
I would contend that she was supporting the troops in the sense she wanted them to be brought home and removed from harms way.
You imply that you were Viet Nam....when were you there what did you do....how did what she did affect you? You were there ostensibly fulfilling your oath to protect and defend the constitution which guarantee her the right to protest our illegal involvement. Or is the constitution only for those who agree with you?
What are you going to do to stop her from starting her march at the Viet Nam memorial to the capitol on March 17??? Does the constitution have no meaning for you?
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 2/9/2007 1:48:30 PM >

(in reply to MstrJae)

RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/9/2007 1:53:25 PM

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

Politics end at the waters edge....
You don't criticise the president when he's abroad... or when your on foreign soil... ask the dixie chicks how it works.

Look at the pics of jane in hanoi,, she did more than speaking out.

Your not serious when comparing Bob Hope ( travels to support troops) to Jane are you?

I respect Ali too, I dont agree with him but he took a stand and paid the price.

S

Sternhand4:
Your post says you respect Ali. He goes to Cuba and hangs with Fidel one of americas so called enemies. Why is it ok for him and not her? We have troops there illegally and ostensibley in harms way.
thompson

(in reply to Sternhand4)

RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/9/2007 2:36:26 PM

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrJae

hanoi jane/jihad jane, should be repatriated to her homeland of vietnam. Let her live under the conditions that she campaigned for.

Obedience to the UN Mandate of Vietnam holding elections?

Because that was all the Vietnamese wanted. Until the International Criminal Diem siezed control and refused to obey the UN.

Isn't disobeying the UN what we used AGAINST Hussein?

Why SUPPORT Diem but OVERTHROW Hussein? Never understood that, and before you go disrespecting anyone for their acts, perhaps you could explain why the US chose to support someone disobeying UN Mandates?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to MstrJae)

RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/10/2007 1:06:36 PM

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

Politics end at the waters edge....

This statement seems rather idiotic.

Bob Hope et al went to Vietnam to support an undeclared police action inflicted on an indigenous population by the US political structure.

Jane Fonda went to Vietnam to protest an undeclared police action inflicted on an indigenous population by the US political structure.

In both cases, politics did NOT end at the water's edge, unless the water you are referring to is the Tonkin Gulf.

For a rationalization to work it has to be fairly applied to all situations, not just the one you want to apply it to.

Sinergy

Bob went to entertain and support our troops in the field, not a political act..Bringing pretty girls improves moral..
The USO supports the troops.

Sternhand4:
Clearly you never attendet one of Bob Hopes shows in Viet Nam...they were full of political commentary.
About the babes....I will never forget Joey Hetherton wearing black spangles and a smile dancing in the rain (and I mean a real turd floater) on stage in Da Nang. Her words were if you can sit in the rain I can dance in the rain.
thompson

(in reply to Sternhand4)

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