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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

farglebargle:
The marines are not part of the navy and never have been. They are not authorized by the constitution but rather by act of congress in 1799. The only person the president needs to consult to send the marines anywhere is the guy who lives at 8th.&I in Washington DC.
thompson

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

farglebargle:
Me and the agree about the illegality of the U.S, involvement in Viet Nam.
I am simply trying to point out that congress and not the constitution authorized the existance of the marines.

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The purpose of which was to give the president a "force in rediness" for instant deployment to any incident that the president thought was in the "interest of the U.S.".

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Constitutionally does the president have the right to send the marines anywhere he chooses ...yes.

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Constitutionally did the several U.S, presidents involved in Viet Nam have the right to be in Viet Nam ...no.
What started out as a batallion level swat team has morphed into a corps level swat team. At the end of WWII the marines were actually large enough to be titled a field army. By public law they are restricted to a maximum strength of a quarter of a million in peacetime...currently their TO is approximately 180,000
thompson

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

farglebargle:
Please go back and read the edit to my last post.
As for constitutional authority to create the marines I would refer you to article 1. section 8 the powers of congress.

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Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

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To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

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To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

To establish post offices and post roads;

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

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To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

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To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

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To provide and maintain a navy;

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To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

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To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.

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As for the reasons that they are "the only ones that are worth a damn" I can only speculate that the only ones who join are those who enjoy being "cocked and locked and ready to rock"
thompson

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ORIGINAL: Sinergy
Of course, the fact that the United States Congress never actually declared war against the government of North Vietnam screws up the idea that there was actually a Vietnam War.

To be correct, there was an undeclared Vietnam Police Action. 

Oddly enough, I suppose we are currently dealing with an undeclared Iraq Police Action.

If we were not technically at war with North Vietnam, who exactly was Jane Fonda committing treason by supporting?
Sinergy

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ORIGINAL: MasterKalif

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ORIGINAL: Sinergy
Of course, the fact that the United States Congress never actually declared war against the government of North Vietnam screws up the idea that there was actually a Vietnam War.

To be correct, there was an undeclared Vietnam Police Action. 

Oddly enough, I suppose we are currently dealing with an undeclared Iraq Police Action.

If we were not technically at war with North Vietnam, who exactly was Jane Fonda committing treason by supporting?
Sinergy

My bad I was not aware that the US never had officially declared war against North Vietnam and was just considered "undeclared Police Action"...what a shame...

I am not saying she committed "treason", but rather, was supporting North Vietnam which was not a "democratic" society....that is what I say is wrong....I fail to see her as a "heroine".

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers,

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I am not really sure what you mean when you reference "tooth to tail ratio"
thompson

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

farglebargle:
The enabling clause I previously cited may be for this clause...I was not there in 1799 so I do not know the reasoning but this is my best guess.
As you well know congress does pretty much what they choose and if it is not brought to the supreme court then it is defacto law.
______________________________________________________
To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

______________________________________________________________

If you want to argue that the marine corps is a group of thugs in green suits then do so.

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I was simply pointing out how they were constituted and what their purpose is. It is pretty clear from the history of the marine corps that the president has used them time and time again when he did not feel that he could get congress to support a war.

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As for the tooth to tail ratio the marine corps has always held that it takes ten support personel to support one rifleman. The fact that all support personel are riflemen also is what allows the marine corps to shift support personel into tactical positions and be effective in the process.
thompson

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

farglegargle:
Do you understand the part about the leters of marque and reprisal?
This is what allows congress to appropriate monies to do things like war without actually declaring war.

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The difference between hiring thugs or having your own swat team to do your thugging is a pretty thin one.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

farglebargle:
You seem to be making the assumption that congress wishes to have oversight here.

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The exception being when they get caught with their "hand in the cookie jar" then they can sit back and cluck amongst themselves that they never declared war and yadda yadda yadda.

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In the specific case of Viet Nam congress abrogated their responsibilitiy in this area for 20 some years. To me that is pretty clear evidence of collusion between the two branches of government. We were there thugging those people out of their shit for 20 years and congress did nothing to stop it. As long as it was the lowest economic fraction of our population that was doing the dying no one gave a shit. When middle class white boys started coming home in rubber sacks then and only then did any change occur.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54
You disagree with the president, protest, but do it IN AMERICA. Not in enemy territory 

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ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

Quite the contrary, of course you can, but not by providing aid the enemies of the United States of America. Since when has helping the enemy kill more Americans become an act of free speach? Since when is it ok to side with the enemy? You disagree with the president, protest, but do it IN AMERICA. Not in enemy territory, We need to be Patriots, we need to be 1 country, united. which means compromise, unfortunately both sides refuse to compromise, each side(the democrats and the republicans) must have total control. And that is what is tearing this country apart.