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RE: CIAW - 3/11/2007 5:08:42 PM

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We all have our own values, morals, ethics, etc.... nothing wrong with having standards to live by, all i am advocating is not making blanket statements without knowing all the facts. There were a few "exceptions to the rule" mentioned by susan and celeste and i am sure there are many more.

UMs do suffer in a divorce - and i just recenly read in a study that UMs from a broken home don't fare as well as UMs from intact families, even if the union of their parents isn't loving and whole. How could i ever point a finger at anypne and condem them for being "wrong" when i don't know all the conditions or concequences for their behavior, unless i am willing to take responsibility for the outcome i would keep my mouth shut. Suppose you condemed someone for cheating, shamed them into confronting their spouse and a divorce ensued, and found out they had an emotionally disturbed child who cubsequently committed suicide - wow, i would not want that on my conscience! Good luck to those who take that responsibiity on.

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(in reply to velvetears)

RE: CIAW - 3/11/2007 5:12:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl

Being raised a certain way is not an excuse. You have a choice as an adult to form your own worldviews.

I was raised by a dad who hates homosexuals. That didn't keep me from utilizing the brain I was given by mother nature to work through the subject and come to my own opinion that my fathers belief was wrong.

Yes, how you are raised effects things..but we still have a choice in it. How many were raised to believe that cheating was right/ok? Let's see a show of hands to determine how relevant this argument is.

I just feel it's very arrogant to claim that, because you have made a decision to "better" yourself, that everyone else should as well.

I firmly believe that anyone, in any situation, is there because of their own actions (or will be, in the immediate future) and can change their situation at any time. I do not expect them to, because this is "knowledge" I have, and they may not.

That having been said, someone has a sigline about mudwrestling a pig. I am not really enjoying this, therefore, I'm not a pig. Not saying you are, just saying one of us seems to be rehashing the same word, which I choose to not accept as a valid argument (I may be wrong here... lol)

Yours,

benji

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RE: CIAW - 3/11/2007 5:14:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

We all have our own values, morals, ethics, etc.... nothing wrong with having standards to live by, all i am advocating is not making blanket statements without knowing all the facts. There were a few "exceptions to the rule" mentioned by susan and celeste and i am sure there are many more.

UMs do suffer in a divorce - and i just recenly read in a study that UMs from a broken home don't fare as well as UMs from intact families, even if the union of their parents isn't loving and whole. How could i ever point a finger at anypne and condem them for being "wrong" when i don't know all the conditions or concequences for their behavior, unless i am willing to take responsibility for the outcome i would keep my mouth shut. Suppose you condemed someone for cheating, shamed them into confronting their spouse and a divorce ensued, and found out they had an emotionally disturbed child who cubsequently committed suicide - wow, i would not want that on my conscience! Good luck to those who take that responsibiity on.

I am a child of divorce. Seeing my mother argue with my father and knowing there was tension and unpleasantness between them was far more painful than dealing with their divorce. I was much happier later on when my mother married a man she loved and I was able to enjoy being in a loving home.

_____________________________

"It's nothing that I understand, but when in your arms you have complete power over me. So be gentle if you please, 'cause your hands are in my hair, but my heart is in your teeth and it makes me want to make you near me always."

(in reply to velvetears)

RE: CIAW - 3/11/2007 5:15:18 PM

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Only thing I have to add (via Fast Reply) is this...

Yes, people make mistakes.

However, the notion that everyone makes mistakes isn't a justification for their not being consequences for those mistakes.

Quite a few people have taken the attitude that "Yes, cheating is wrong, but everyone makes mistakes so its OK." This unfortunately bares zero resemblance to the reality I live in. Maybe some of you went to the high schools that have done away with failing grades.

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RE: CIAW - 3/11/2007 5:16:43 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl
Let me rephrase: If you do something with full knowledge that it will cause harm to another person, then that action is wrong.

Rephrase away. I still think it's an entirely faulted argument.

How many people have I fired in the workplace, knowing their lives would be worse for it?

If I break up with a girl who loves me, am I doing wrong?

Let's also look at actions not done/betterment not provided, such as not giving money to a homeless guy, knowing it's cold out. Is that wrong?

Inquisitive minds want to know.

Yours,

benji

_____________________________

Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

(in reply to GeekyGirl)

RE: CIAW - 3/11/2007 5:17:31 PM

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I just don't see anyone can say that cheating is "right". How can dishonesty be right?

I will agree that sometimes it is LESS wrong than at other times...but it is still wrong.

Killing someone in defense of your country is less wrong than killing someone to steal their wallet...but killing is still wrong.

Cheating because you're wife is a frigid bitch who hates you and you don't want to leave her because you have UMS is "less wrong" than cheating on a sweet wonderful woman who does everything in the world to make you happy...but it's still wrong.

A white lie is "less wrong" than a major lie. But it's still lying and their both still wrong.

_____________________________

"It's nothing that I understand, but when in your arms you have complete power over me. So be gentle if you please, 'cause your hands are in my hair, but my heart is in your teeth and it makes me want to make you near me always."

(in reply to GeekyGirl)

RE: CIAW - 3/11/2007 5:19:28 PM

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From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
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to benji, especially, but also to everyone else.

i agree that when it comes to cultural upbringing and such we get onto shaky ground. however, this is why i do believe everyone has the right to determine what they find morally acceptable and unacceptable. i find cannibalism, if the person being eaten did not die specifically for that purpose (for example, eating an relative who died of old age) to be perfectly acceptable. i find cannibalism in the hannibal lecter tradition, killing people for the sole purpose of eating them, to be wrong. but that's my own personal belief.

when we start getting into the issue of cultural upbringing, things do get shaky. i'm not going to say that i have the monopoly on morality or anything like that, and i will certainly admit that my own ideas on this, like many other things, are not hard and fast and i definitely don't claim to even come close to having the answers for anything.

that said, i think if a culture condones rape and it causes psychological, emotional, and physical harm to anyone because of it, regardless of the fact that it's a cultural norm, it's still morally wrong (in my opinion). because of the fact that the rapists were brought up to believe that it is right, and because of the issues engendered by that, i wouldn't necessarily condemn -them-, but whatever it was that brought them to that point. just like i don't condemn suicide bombers, i condemn a society that creates them. that said, for this and many other reasons, i condone prison not for punishment, but for rehabilitation and for the protection of society from people who act this way until they are rehabilitated. this is also why i believe firmly in researching the causes and conditions of harmful behavior, and not sitting around tossing blame on people and condemning people, but instead using that energy to work toward changing the circumstances that caused the action.

like i said, it unfortunately doesn't all come out black and white, cut and dried, but we do the best we can with what we have to work with. i think that having some moral beliefs and sticking to them is a lot better than having none and saying that anything goes, personally. they both come with their own sets of problems.

< Message edited by hisannabelle -- 3/11/2007 5:21:15 PM >

(in reply to velvetears)

RE: CIAW - 3/11/2007 5:20:41 PM

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I applaud your efforts, Velvetears, in that the world is not so black and white. I used to think it was. I used to dig my heels in deep at that line...until the line in the sand opened up and sucked me in.

My husband cheated on me. He did this by not loving me as he had promised to. And by abusing me. And by bringing me to such a frightened place I didn't think I could live without him, abuse and all. Oh yes, and by assuring me I wasn't emtionally appealing enough to him to have sex with me, and masturbating was not allowed, and good God BDSM stuff? Well he convinced me I was unstable and could not be trusted with my own thoughts.

In 20 years I would say we were intimate at most, a dozen times. So yes, he cheated me. And guess what? I let him.

The result was a woman who became so desperate for love and affection she ultimately went outside the marriage in response to men making her feel, at least for a moment, that she was desireable. She was always left empty though, and was still too afraid to leave. Talk to her husband? Oh sure she talked to him. She begged, pleaded, and even went to counseling.

And then she met someone who taught her to love herself. And in learning to love herself, she realized she deserved more than she was getting....and she left, scared to death, but still she left.

The world is not so black and white. It took me nearly forty years to realize that.

Do I condone cheating? Not at all. I am still dealing with my own feelings about having done it. But I understand it. And fortunately for me, those who love me - family and close friends - understand it, too. And oh yes - the notion "once a cheater, always a cheater" is bullshit. I am absolutely 100% fulfilled in a fantastic relationship. Even the thought of cheating on him is upsetting to me.

Cheating is a symptom of a bigger problem in the relationship. In the case of my marriage, we both were at fault. I will never proclaim to know another couples' relationship so well as to make such judgments on one or both parties. People just don't know what goes on behind closed doors. I know I kept up a great front for a long time - my marriage was considered "model" by most. Go figure.

(in reply to velvetears)

RE: CIAW - 3/11/2007 5:20:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl
I am a child of divorce. Seeing my mother argue with my father and knowing there was tension and unpleasantness between them was far more painful than dealing with their divorce. I was much happier later on when my mother married a man she loved and I was able to enjoy being in a loving home.

Never mind not posting anymore; this is almost as good as DBG.....

You say this is your experience.

Congratulations!!!!! And the winner is...... GeekyGirl! *Flowers get thrown, kisses blown*

Your experiences do not define the wider world. They are your experiences. I, for example, happen to enjoy working 18 hour days. I think the world should switch to 18 hour days, because I enjoy it.

I don't value all of these studies much either, but more so than the commentary on intangible experiences from a random girl online.

Yours,

benji

_____________________________

Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

(in reply to GeekyGirl)

RE: CIAW - 3/11/2007 5:23:46 PM

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domiguy: I just love it he didn't flinch at introducing the topic. I think it's because he's a lawyer and well-prepared for round-robin arguments that ensue (he has been around this block).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/11/2007 5:24:04 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to domiguy)

RE: CIAW - 3/11/2007 5:25:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl
Let me rephrase: If you do something with full knowledge that it will cause harm to another person, then that action is wrong.

Rephrase away. I still think it's an entirely faulted argument.

How many people have I fired in the workplace, knowing their lives would be worse for it?

If I break up with a girl who loves me, am I doing wrong?

Let's also look at actions not done/betterment not provided, such as not giving money to a homeless guy, knowing it's cold out. Is that wrong?

Inquisitive minds want to know.

Yours,

benji

Everyone does "wrong". I won't deny that. Sometimes "wrong" is the only thing you can do. Just because it's the only option doesn't make it "right". It makes it "a necessary evil". A necessary evil is still evil.

You mentioned how people were raised. Well I was raised that lying was the ultimate sin, the ultimate wrong doing. I was raised that all other things were forgivable except lying. To me, cheating is lying and therefore one of the worst things you can do.

I had a stepbrother who lived with me for a while. I can remember him being literally beaten a few times for lying and perhaps that has stuck with me. I myself very rarely lie. That is a value I was raised with and it stayed with me.

To me, lying is the ultimate betrayal. I'd rather see any other course of action followed. (ie stressing your UMS with a divorce seems a lot less evil than lying to me, because that is just a value that is ingrained into me.)

I'm not negating the validity of your own opinions. I have caused deliberate harm myself on many occasions, usually by saying something cruel or bluntly honest. It was wrong of me, but in my opinion "less wrong" than lying.

That is just how I see the world. Reference my sig line: these are just my opinions.

Morality is always a titchy argument. Take the example of the bum: is it wrong to refuse to give him money (because it means he will go without food or shelter) or is wrong TO give him money, since doing so encourages him to remain a bum rather than seeking to better himself? Can go either way.

_____________________________

"It's nothing that I understand, but when in your arms you have complete power over me. So be gentle if you please, 'cause your hands are in my hair, but my heart is in your teeth and it makes me want to make you near me always."

(in reply to gooddogbenji)

RE: CIAW - 3/11/2007 5:25:17 PM

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From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Only thing I have to add (via Fast Reply) is this...

Yes, people make mistakes.

However, the notion that everyone makes mistakes isn't a justification for their not being consequences for those mistakes.

Quite a few people have taken the attitude that "Yes, cheating is wrong, but everyone makes mistakes so its OK." This unfortunately bares zero resemblance to the reality I live in. Maybe some of you went to the high schools that have done away with failing grades.

this is an awesome post, and sums up some of my feelings on the subject. thanks for posting it :)

(in reply to MadRabbit)

RE: CIAW - 3/11/2007 5:27:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

that said, i think if a culture condones rape and it causes psychological, emotional, and physical harm to anyone because of it, regardless of the fact that it's a cultural norm, it's still morally wrong (in my opinion). because of the fact that the rapists were brought up to believe that it is right, and because of the issues engendered by that, i wouldn't necessarily condemn -them-, but whatever it was that brought them to that point. just like i don't condemn suicide bombers, i condemn a society that creates them. that said, for this and many other reasons, i condone prison not for punishment, but for rehabilitation and for the protection of society from people who act this way until they are rehabilitated. this is also why i believe firmly in researching the causes and conditions of harmful behavior, and not sitting around tossing blame on people and condemning people, but instead using that energy to work toward changing the circumstances that caused the action.

But, see, to them we're a bunch of colonial assholes whose greed may soon destroy the world (Oh, wait, that's my opinion.... oops)

What makes us so much better that we can judge the way they do things? Things are a certain way for a reason, so to judge the rape thing, we would need to look at where that comes from. Is it history? Religion? General assholery?

You very quickly get into the roots of culture, which happen to be the same as ours. We just happen to have a different set of vices. So to condemn their culture is to say we have done it better, with happier people and better looking kids. We have not. We are no better, just different. They are changing their vices, just as we are changing ours.

Live and let live. Choose your surroundings, change what you can, but don't condemn another group entirely for no good reason.

Yours,

benji

_____________________________

Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

(in reply to hisannabelle)

RE: CIAW - 3/11/2007 5:29:14 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl
I am a child of divorce. Seeing my mother argue with my father and knowing there was tension and unpleasantness between them was far more painful than dealing with their divorce. I was much happier later on when my mother married a man she loved and I was able to enjoy being in a loving home.

Never mind not posting anymore; this is almost as good as DBG.....

You say this is your experience.

Congratulations!!!!! And the winner is...... GeekyGirl! *Flowers get thrown, kisses blown*

Your experiences do not define the wider world. They are your experiences. I, for example, happen to enjoy working 18 hour days. I think the world should switch to 18 hour days, because I enjoy it.

I don't value all of these studies much either, but more so than the commentary on intangible experiences from a random girl online.

Yours,

benji

I never said anyone else had to have the same opinion as me. I just said that it was MY opinion. A simple statement of such. I never said it was an ultimate truth of the universe. It is only an ultimate truth of GeekyGirl. It is what *I* live by and the standard by which I judge others who are a part of my life.

_____________________________

"It's nothing that I understand, but when in your arms you have complete power over me. So be gentle if you please, 'cause your hands are in my hair, but my heart is in your teeth and it makes me want to make you near me always."

(in reply to gooddogbenji)

RE: CIAW - 3/11/2007 5:31:26 PM

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From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
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i'm not saying we're better, but i'm saying that i personally feel i have the responsibility to do my best to raise awareness and try to change circumstances that lead to harmful actions. i'm not saying that i myself don't do wrong. i'm not saying that "they" might not view me as being wrong. perhaps this makes me arrogant. i do my best not to condemn an entire group for no good reason; rather, i do my best to change things for the better, the best way i know how. but to know where the changing needs to happen, i think it's important to me to have some sort of moral compass. if it makes me arrogant, so be it. like i said before, i really don't give a damn.

(nowhere in there did i actually condemn middle eastern culture, by the way, which i happen to find a very beautiful and enriching culture, so i'm not sure how you got that conclusion. but hey, whatever tickles you.)

< Message edited by hisannabelle -- 3/11/2007 5:32:19 PM >

(in reply to gooddogbenji)

RE: CIAW - 3/11/2007 5:32:10 PM

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I agree with Celeste and velvetears (and some others, as well) and with benji, too -

** I also want to know why on a bdsm message board, nobody is equating the idea of having an "open marriage" with Polyamory, and discussing that - or bringing it up at all. People have been doing this kind of thing in places like Europe, and other countries, for years, so part of the resistance in the U.S., IMO, really is cultural.

My sister is a divorce attorney, and she will be the first to tell anyone, while there might be no such thing as a pain-free marriage, there are certainly common scenarios where ex-spouses are putting their own desire to get revenge on a spouse, ahead of the emotional (or even physical) welfare of their kids - and often do it by inflicting a lot of harm on kids, via pitting their spouse against the kids, or the kids against the spouse. It's a lot of the time, pretty devasating to the kids. There is also the issue of people (not just men, either) refusing to pay child support.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/11/2007 6:01:54 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Celeste43)

RE: CIAW - 3/11/2007 5:35:58 PM

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From: Toronto
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl

Everyone does "wrong". I won't deny that. Sometimes "wrong" is the only thing you can do. Just because it's the only option doesn't make it "right". It makes it "a necessary evil". A necessary evil is still evil.

I would love to hear your definition of "wrong."

To me, "morally wrong"(And I assume this is what we are speaking of) means an action or decision which is unnacceptable based on irrational reasons.

That may clarify this whole thing a bit.

Yours,

benji

_____________________________

Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

(in reply to GeekyGirl)

RE: CIAW - 3/11/2007 5:36:46 PM

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ownedgirlie - thank you for such a poignant post and for your courage in opening up and discussing this with us. Yours is a perfect example of what i was trying to convey. We all try to do what's best and sometimes we succeed and sometimes we don't. Judging and condemning others does nothing to promote their growth, it only serves to make them conform because they don't want to be sanctioned or possibly ostracised by their families or society. i am sad that you endured such pain in your marriage but delighted you are so happy now!!

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

RE: CIAW - 3/11/2007 5:38:22 PM

Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

(nowhere in there did i actually condemn middle eastern culture, by the way, which i happen to find a very beautiful and enriching culture, so i'm not sure how you got that conclusion. but hey, whatever tickles you.)

That bit was my example of the middle eastern rapist thing which seems rampantly condemned as wrong everywhere these days, and is seen as good reason to invade 'em and let 'em burn.

I have no sources to cite.

Yours,

benji

_____________________________

Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

(in reply to hisannabelle)

RE: CIAW - 3/11/2007 5:45:43 PM

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Joined: 8/21/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

ownedgirlie - thank you for such a poignant post and for your courage in opening up and discussing this with us. Yours is a perfect example of what i was trying to convey. We all try to do what's best and sometimes we succeed and sometimes we don't. Judging and condemning others does nothing to promote their growth, it only serves to make them conform because they don't want to be sanctioned or possibly ostracised by their families or society. i am sad that you endured such pain in your marriage but delighted you are so happy now!!

Thinking what someone did was wrong does not mean you judge them as a person.

To quote my grandmother, "I don't hate HIM, but I hate his actions." I can judge your actions without judging you. Saying that "cheating is wrong" does not mean "if you're a cheater, I hate you and you should die and burn in hell." It means, "What you did was wrong IMO."

I have known many "good" people who cheated, including a very close friend of mine.I still think their ACTIONS were wrong. For that matter, I've met a good number of murderers at my job whom I felt were "good" people. I still feel their actions were wrong and have consequences.

I have a strong respect for someone who will say, "What I did was wrong." That's all I'm saying in regard to cheating. If you want to do it, do it...but don't go thinking it's "right" or "justified." Be a strong enough person to say, "Here's what I did..here's why I did it...My reasons do not change the fact that what I did was wrong and hurt someone..however I do feel it was the best choice I could make at the time for my own ultimate happiness." If you don't want to call it "wrong" , at least call it selfish. You put your own needs ahead of the need of your spouse/partner.

< Message edited by GeekyGirl -- 3/11/2007 5:47:01 PM >

_____________________________

"It's nothing that I understand, but when in your arms you have complete power over me. So be gentle if you please, 'cause your hands are in my hair, but my heart is in your teeth and it makes me want to make you near me always."

(in reply to velvetears)

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