Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: The Fallacy of Labels


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: The Fallacy of Labels Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 11:02:42 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		Fair enough.

I will agree there is a general basis behind labels on a very simple level. We can all come to the consensus that a dominant is the one holding some degree of authority over another. Even if we come to that consensus though, 20 people will say "Well you have to have that authority in a 24/7 relationship or your just a Top", 10 people will say "No, you can have authority during a scene and be a Dominant and not a Top" and 5 people will say "Well only people who take authority in scenes are Dominants, people who do it 24/7 are control freaks."

We can say that a submissive is someone who submits to the authority of another. Once again, 20 people will say "You have to give up absolute authority and be a slave or your not real.", 10 people will say "No, you can give up some authority in a relationship as a submissive and its still real.", and 5 people will say "No, people who give up authority in a scene are submissives as well and not just bottoms and anyone who does it in a relationship is a doormat."

Its not the basic definition thats the problem, but the "Who Is and Who Isnt" part. I'm not really a dominant to a good number of people reading my posts.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 3/20/2007 11:09:47 AM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to starshineowned)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 11:24:41 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		I think, SlyStone, this is why when someone asks me personally "what" I am in terms of BDSM I may say "dominant with sadistic leanings" but I also always say "I'm TammyJo, please just call me that."

Ds is important to me and an important part of my life but it isn't all of me and I'm not exactly like anyone else.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 11:35:58 AM   
jjbgoodtwo


Posts: 1
Joined: 3/20/2007
Status: offline



We all have label we give ourself but it is when other try and label us as they see fit  that what is no good.




(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 3:25:12 PM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		We couldnt really talk about anything without labels, and in the world we live in we also constantly have to refer to labels to describe other people and ourselves even. Each of us carry different labels for different situations - at work I wear the boss label, if I'm at an Asatru gathering I wear the elder label, if I'm teaching guitar I wear the teacher label.




Ellen,

See I don't see those as being labels, I think of them as roles and I think the distinction is that a role is a behavior and a label is an attempt to describe that behavior. The role is who or what you are, the label is nothing but a shorthand description of that role. The role is essential, the label is meaningless until we assign it a given meaning. The role is our orientation, the label is nothing but words.

So you may have a role as a boss and others may label you as a tough boss or an easy going boss or what ever and you in turn have your own labels you may give yourself. But they are fluid and open to interpretation and your one role may in fact be described by a multitude of labels and all those labels still don't describe who you are so what good are they really?

I guess my point is that I don't think you need to wear that label, or any label for that matter, they only serve to allow others to put us in a box that they think we should be in. What is worse is when we do it to ourselves, I know I have for sure.



_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 3:33:17 PM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		I can say "I am a sadist" and instantly, people will know I enjoy inflicting pain.


MadRabbit,

And see I think there is the fallacy, because all it means is that you SAY that you enjoy inflicting pain, it in know way means that in fact you do. It would be nice if all labels were true but unfortunately  I find that in fact most labels are not true. The only way to know for sure is to dispense with your label and get to know you.

I think that may be a problem with people here, or anywhere for that matter, finding a partner, because they believe the labels and than once they meet the real person they see the label to be nothing but what they wish they were, or what they falsely believe that they are, or what they hope to become, but not who they really are.

Just my opinion.



The problem is when people try and decide what labels to use for other people and what those labels mean to them.


But isn't that what always happens, I mean that is the nature of labels. The only meaning they have is what we assign them.









_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 3:40:46 PM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		I think, SlyStone, this is why when someone asks me personally "what" I am in terms of BDSM I may say "dominant with sadistic leanings" but I also always say "I'm TammyJo, please just call me that."




TammyJo,

I have decided to label myself as a d/s mutt , a slobbering big eared goofball of an alpha male with a with a mix of high brow breeding and street wise leaning, a slight to medium nasty streak, always quick to bite but will play well with others once he gets  to know them  :)

I don't expect much mail but it will be truth in advertising for sure.


_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 3:57:07 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

I think, SlyStone, this is why when someone asks me personally "what" I am in terms of BDSM I may say "dominant with sadistic leanings" but I also always say "I'm TammyJo, please just call me that."




TammyJo,

I have decided to label myself as a d/s mutt , a slobbering big eared goofball of an alpha male with a with a mix of high brow breeding and street wise leaning, a slight to medium nasty streak, always quick to bite but will play well with others once he gets  to know them  :)

I don't expect much mail but it will be truth in advertising for sure.



Sometimes, I think the most apt characterization of myself is that of a barnacle thats hell bent on attaching to the bottom of a big ol' ship.  If I'm securely attached, I'm fine, but every once in a while I come loose, through no fault or will of my own, and then I just kind of float around aimlessly until another ship comes my way.

In any case, I tend to agree on the labeling thing.  Too often they result in mindless stereotyping and do the job of thinking for us even when they're innocuous and not being used invidiously.  I think its important to put the person first and I try to remember this when I'm writing.  Sometimes, it make sense to speak of D's and s's as general categories but when the terms are used in a reductivist way, its never good.


_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 4:00:05 PM   
veronicaboundcd


Posts: 101
Joined: 1/4/2005
Status: offline 		I agree that the labels serve a purpose, but the problem arises when the definition of each label is taken to the letter. This lifestyle is so diversified, with so many different opinions, fetishes, fantasies, etc .... that having a preconceived notion as to exactly what each label means can cause disention or misconception. If I tell someone I'm buying a new car, they have no idea of what type of car it might be ... they just know it's a car. Much more information is needed to determine exactly what that car may actually be. Every label we use in this lifestyle can come in a wide variety of forms, as each of us are individuals. The labels are a starting point ...a category ..... and are useful, but I never assume the fine details until I dig a little furthur !!!!!

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 4:06:33 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		The Surgeon General has demanded that I label the "Domidong" with a Surgeon General's warning.....Warning: "This Domidong should only be put in the "front" to avoid internal bleeding...Excessive use has been linked to unwanted pregnancies and cervical cancer due to it being covered with funky looking warts"

_____________________________



(in reply to veronicaboundcd)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 5:09:40 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

I believe that labels, when applied to others, serve no purpose other than to provide people with a false sense of superiority or an inflated sense of meaning to what it is that they do.


I would disagree with this slightly, some people do use labels this way, others use them to understand their world. Not all people use labels the same way. I use labels to get a generalized idea of what I am dealing with. If I feel it is necessary to know more then I ask the person what their label is describing. Here are a couple of analogies. You tell me something is a tree. I ask is it an evergreen or a broadleaf, a fruit tree or a drupe tree. Does it have cones? Telling me that something is a tree is a very incomplete description and really only gives me a vague idea of what it is that we are dealing with for communication purposes. Another analogy is the title of a book, it might set the tone for the book, but one cannot gauge what a book is about from its title, you have to read it. I see labels the same way.
 
quote:

Labels do not lie, they either project or conceal the truth. And when someone turns out  not be who or what they say they are it is not the label that is the lie, it is the person hiding behind it that is the liar. So when you say somone is not what they say they are you are calling them a liar. You may in fact be right, but than again you may be wrong.

 
Well lying is such a judgmental term, how about mistaken, or their label is different from yours. You know words have more than one meaning, and different people have different reactions to the same label. I do not view people as liars about how they label themselves, because basically I do not care how other people choose to conceptualize themselves. We are rarely objective (if we ever are) about ourselves. I think this is why people should use labels only to get a vague idea of what another person is about, and one needs to have a conversation to see if they are thinking the same things. Try an experiment, next time you have an argument with someone have them repeat back what they think you said... you maybe flabbergasted at how differently they perceive what they think you said from what you actually said... it is the way human beings are.

I can only say that I appreciate what you say, and in some ways agree, but it made it a lot easier to find my Daddy because he called himself a dominant, and I called myself a submissive. He wanted a bottom type person, and I wanted a top type person. I had to talk to him to find out what kind of top type person he was, and he was just the type I was looking for. Now a lot of dominants were not suited for me, even though they labeled themselves correctly. For example they did not like to inflict pain, or they were into extreme pain play. A label does not cut it, it just weeds out a lot of people that you know you would not be compatible with. For example most submissives would not want another submissive, without the label how do we know? You can only know beyond the label if you choose to have a conversation.




_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 5:16:58 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

He wanted a bottom type person, and I wanted a top type person. I had to talk to him to find out what kind of top type person he was, and he was just the type I was looking for. Now a lot of dominants were not suited for me, even though they labeled themselves correctly


Well said.


_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 8:39:20 PM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		it made it a lot easier to find my Daddy because he called himself a dominant, and I called myself a submissive."


Julia, I understand what you are saying and appreciate your thoughts.

I remember when I was first looking to get into college many years ago. A recruiter told me that the first thing they did was sort the ACT scores. Anything below whatever was tossed in the garbage. Next they looked at high school grades and so on. It was a process of elimination because they somehow had to get the numbers down to a manageable figure. I imagine they still do the same thing, and I always wondered how many worthy people got tossed in the trash based on that set criteria.

Maybe that is what labels do for us and to us, we need them to sort things out and make sense of the world quickly and narrow it down to something we can feel a part of and something manageable. But people are not objects to be labeled, and  in general I think the more we sort the more we leave behind and the less we learn and the less we grow.





_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 8:43:14 PM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		The Surgeon General has demanded that I label the "Domidong" with a Surgeon General's warning.....Warning



lol

Good to see you are no longer awaiting approval, we all seek it, but waiting for it must have seemed like an eternity.


_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 8:44:24 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone


I believe that labels, when applied to others, serve no purpose other than to provide people with a false sense of superiority or an inflated sense of meaning to what it is that they do. And believe me just as some self defined slaves may look down at those they consider to be bottoms, or dominants at those they  consider to be tops, the same sense of false superiority is held by some bottoms and tops towards the slaves and submissive.

It all becomes so silly and meaningless. The slave and master may feel  that they are the true practioners of d/s and the top and bottom may feel  that they are instead the doormats and the deluded, and it would be so much better if they each tried to enrich their own lives rather than spend time tearing each others down.

Labels do not lie, they either project or conceal the truth. And when someone turns out  not be who or what they say they are it is not the label that is the lie, it is the person hiding behind it that is the liar. So when you say somone is not what they say they are you are calling them a liar. You may in fact be right, but than again you may be wrong.

I think we all use labels as a means to express to others how it is that we see ourselves, there really is no other concise way to do so. And labels are great for intellectual discussion and authors love them because they make things simple and descriptive.

The problem is that they are not necessarily who we are but rather who we want to be or who we wish we were or what we intend on becoming. And most of us simply cannot be described with a single label or even multiple labels, we are simply ourselves expressing our identity or orientation in an alternative way that we consider to be d/s, and that should be good enough.

I think all labels are limiting by their very nature and therefore they diminish us as much as they describe us. I say that because we are all more than one dimensional, no one word can describe us, and even more importantly nothing can describe what it is that we can become.




"Was it Kierkegaard, or Dick Van Patten, who wrote 'when you label me, you negate me?'"
Mike Myers, Waynes World
 
Sinergy

p.s. I personally think that a person contains multitudes, and when a person puts a label on somebody they stop examining that person for who they really are, and rely on the label to maintain their intellectually lazy examination of the person.

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 8:53:28 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Maybe that is what labels do for us and to us, we need them to sort things out and make sense of the world quickly and narrow it down to something we can feel a part of and something manageable. But people are not objects to be labeled, and  in general I think the more we sort the more we leave behind and the less we learn and the less we grow.

 
Let me put it this way, you have a million books in front of you. You want to be able to find books on a specific subject and not spend an inordinate amount of time doing so. The logical thing to do is to separate them into fiction and nonfiction. Then you separate them into reference books, biographies, academic texts on the nonfiction side. On the fiction side you would have mysteries, romances, and science fiction. All of these books have their place in the world, and maybe worth reading, but if I am going to be writing a paper on why Neanderthals may have had trade routes, I am definitely not going to sort and sift through romance novels. If I am looking for a great science fiction book, I am not going to want to wade through National Geographics.

When I get emails from male submissives, I pretty much know that they are going to want me to be in control over them. They are going to want me to sexually dominate them in some way... I am not interested in wading through those emails to ascertain that, yes, they want me to beat their ass and dress them up in women's clothing. They are barking up the wrong tree by emailing me. They are in the biography section, when what they really want is Alice In Wonderland. It seems logical to me (mind you, others may differ in their opinions) that they would want a little clue to know if they were in the right section of the figurative library.

If you can figure out a better way to find what one is looking for than labels, please let me know, I am very open minded. I do not feel I am shit canning a bunch of human beings based upon a label. For example, you labeled yourself a straight male. Those labels are pertinent to you in the search for a mate most likely. It has a specific meaning to you that you are a straight male, it means you are searching for a straight or bisexual female I am assuming. I am sure you do not need to sift through all the men on CM to discover they are not suitable for you. They are in the fiction side of the library, and you want a nonfiction book

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 8:56:41 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		Ahh!!..but only the intellectually lazy will stop at the one label..while the more intelligient will delve further for more labels and more description and more understanding, until they know as TammyJo said TammyJo..who is made up of many labels and descriptions, until her life is told by all of these things..The only problem that I see is that the human language is sometimes lacking, but it is all we have!...Tempting

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 8:58:49 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		For the most part, I second that. I think they are useful in the way a STOP sign might be useful on a very busy street, to someone who maybe didn't pay too much attention at all to traffic to begin with (and some people seem to need to solely rely on them more than others, to conduct their relationships.) In a basic way, they're useful, I agree.

If I am looking for a Dominant (or a submissive) I like to know what a person identifies themself as, for obvious reasons. And I do think it's nice in the grocery store the jars are labelled, say, so I know I am getting a certain brand of Peanut Butter.

But - as far as people, they are so complex, IMO, that when it comes to dealing with communication and problems, I think the smartest thing I heard last year, was when I heard someone say: " The person matters more than the the damn role." 

If someone knows the basic "rules" and "roles" for a D/s relationship, that's good, IMO. I can envision where this can becomes a distinct hindrance to happiness, if either party leans on that way too much to perhaps avoid discussing something one or the other considers a large concern.

- Susan 

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/20/2007 9:03:16 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 9:13:03 PM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline
If you can figure out a better way to find what one is looking for than labels, please let me know, I am very open minded. I do not feel I am shit canning a bunch of human beings based upon a label. For example, you labeled yourself a straight male.



See I don't see that my being a straight male is a label I am applying. It is what I am, no question. It is no different than my age or my physical makeup or even if I am dominant or submissive in terms of my orientation.

A label is totally open to interpretation. If I say I am dominant, that is not a label, it is my orientation. If I say I am A dominant than I am applying a label. Based on that label you may or may not learn more about me but in reality it is meaningless because it can mean anything.

Make any sense or no? 

_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 9:15:14 PM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		p.s. I personally think that a person contains multitudes, and when a person puts a label on somebody they stop examining that person for who they really are, and rely on the label to maintain their intellectually lazy examination of the person


Thank you, I was trying to say that, but I think you said it better.


_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 9:20:11 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
I see myself as a submissive innately. I will say this though, I may not be someone else's idea of what a submissive is. I am a woman innately, but I may not be someone else's idea of what a woman should be. It starts with a label, and if someone is wise it will turn into a conversation regarding what it is that we do. If people mislabel themselves, and someone else just takes the label at face value, that would be foolish in my mind. We have to talk about what we believe we are using words at some point.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 40
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: The Fallacy of Labels Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109