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The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 6:21:23 AM   
SlyStone


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From: Chicago
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I believe that labels, when applied to others, serve no purpose other than to provide people with a false sense of superiority or an inflated sense of meaning to what it is that they do. And believe me just as some self defined slaves may look down at those they consider to be bottoms, or dominants at those they  consider to be tops, the same sense of false superiority is held by some bottoms and tops towards the slaves and submissive.

It all becomes so silly and meaningless. The slave and master may feel  that they are the true practioners of d/s and the top and bottom may feel  that they are instead the doormats and the deluded, and it would be so much better if they each tried to enrich their own lives rather than spend time tearing each others down.

Labels do not lie, they either project or conceal the truth. And when someone turns out  not be who or what they say they are it is not the label that is the lie, it is the person hiding behind it that is the liar. So when you say somone is not what they say they are you are calling them a liar. You may in fact be right, but than again you may be wrong.

I think we all use labels as a means to express to others how it is that we see ourselves, there really is no other concise way to do so. And labels are great for intellectual discussion and authors love them because they make things simple and descriptive.

The problem is that they are not necessarily who we are but rather who we want to be or who we wish we were or what we intend on becoming. And most of us simply cannot be described with a single label or even multiple labels, we are simply ourselves expressing our identity or orientation in an alternative way that we consider to be d/s, and that should be good enough.

I think all labels are limiting by their very nature and therefore they diminish us as much as they describe us. I say that because we are all more than one dimensional, no one word can describe us, and even more importantly nothing can describe what it is that we can become.



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RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 6:26:10 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		You don't make yourself bigger by making someone else smaller.

But putting that aside, labels in general are useful. Do you like corn but detest green beans? Then a frozen vegetable that didn't specify which was which would be a crap shoot.

Are you happier with someone who is more submissive than you or someone more dominant? Then you had better find out before you get in too deep what kind of person you're seeing is.

Labels can be used for information only and if so, they are useful. They can be used to hurt others but that's the fault of the person who deliberately twists them.

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RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 6:31:58 AM   
jauntyone


Posts: 543
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Anchorage Alaska
Status: offline 		hello SlyStone
 
nice post, and one that i pretty much agree with. I think we get so caught up in making sure that others understand our stance that we forget one important fact. Labels are interchangeable. I am many things at different times. A slave, a wife, a lover, a friend, a soldier. Most of all though, I am just me; a combination of many wonderful things.
 
I wish you well
 
melissa

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RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 6:38:28 AM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline 		So Sly,
 
How do you go about finding a play partner if you think labels are invalid? 


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RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 6:45:01 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		We couldnt really talk about anything without labels, and in the world we live in we also constantly have to refer to labels to describe other people and ourselves even. Each of us carry different labels for different situations - at work I wear the boss label, if I'm at an Asatru gathering I wear the elder label, if I'm teaching guitar I wear the teacher label. None of those labels, or the countless others I carry will ever accurately and completely describe me as a rounded person, but they are necessary for specific situations.

The only problem comes, when special attention is given to one label that relates to a person which carries with it certain prejudice that totally defines that person according to the label. For instance, the disabled/handicapped label is generally interpreted in our society to totally define the person as being solely that - being disabled is the sum total of their thoughts, deeds, words, past, present and future. The person is written off, put in a box marked "ignore" and society moves on.

Dependent on the observers concerned, there are many similar labels that work in the same way - gay, lesbian, black, Muslim, Jewish, transgender etc. What is common about these labels is that they are subject to negative stereotyping in wider society, such that if we can apply these labels to someone, then that tells us all we need to know about them and we can define them absolutely as to character by way of the label.

So I dont believe labels are a fallacy in themselves, in that we need them for our reference as we move through life. The fallacy is in the shallow stereotyping of certain groups that might wear a certain label, and in our general ignorance that just because someone is disabled for instance, this does not sum up in one word the totality of them as a person.

E

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RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 6:53:55 AM   
MasterGremlin


Posts: 230
Joined: 12/30/2006
Status: offline 		I believe the issue (especially what I've seen on this site) is how we use the labels. Similiar to what LadyEllen stated I see many use labels on this site to define the person instead of being used as a guide until that person is known well enough that we can properly categorize them with something more in-depth than a label. So the labels are useful tools in helping people interact but it needs to be realized that they are a starting point of that interaction not the end point. Especially in a lifestyle that has sooooo many shades of grey.

MG

< Message edited by MasterGremlin -- 3/20/2007 6:54:15 AM >

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RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 6:54:21 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

So I dont believe labels are a fallacy in themselves, in that we need them for our reference as we move through life. The fallacy is in the shallow stereotyping of certain groups that might wear a certain label, and in our general ignorance that just because someone is disabled for instance, this does not sum up in one word the totality of them as a person.

That rather sums it up nicely I think.  Labels can be useful for communicating information, when that is the intent.  Those same labels can be sources of misunderstanding when the intent changes.   Its not the labels that are the problem, but merely how some use them.

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RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 7:20:23 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		I think every comment in this thread has been interesting and dead on top me.

Labels serve a purpose. People who cannot accept another person’s label of something, has such a rigid definition for that label that it clouds communication and actions and uses labels to make judgments of superiority have issues. These problems are not the problem of labels but the problem of the person using labels for something that they are not meant to be used for.



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RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 7:24:55 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I see labels as a starting point.  Nothing more.  They can give a general idea of what a person is about.  But if you want to know someone, you need to ask questions about how they define the label they wear.

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RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 7:27:24 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		Labels are misleading only if you allow them to be...and that is either you as the interpreter or you as the one the label is referring to.  A group of apples in a clear bag marked "potatoes" has clearly been mislabeled.  A bunch of corn niblets in a white bag with the word "peas" and a picture of peas in a field on the cover has also been mislabeled but now the mislabeling is not so clear and you have to open the bag and look inside to see that the veggie within is indeed carrying a false label.  The labels are there for informative purposes but they are just a starting point and that is all they are. 

Labels on people are much the same.  They are a starting point...and given that most of us have more free will and individual thought than veggies, they are often applied to ourselves before others apply them to us.  It is up to you to find out whether or not the person holding out their identifying label to you fits into what your conceived notion of what that label means.  The differences....or similarities...between how they see themselves as fitting that label and how you see them as fitting it is where discussion takes place.

You don't hate a black man because of the label "black man"...you hate a black man because of what negative qualities you have come to associate with the black race.  You don't hate a lesbian because of the label "lesbian", you hate her because of whatever negative qualities you have come to associate with lesbians.

Do certain people use labels to disparage groups?  It seems like it but listen to the content of what they say;  you will find out that... even with those stupid enough to take the bad, individual qualities of a few and apply them broadly to a group... somewhere along the line in the history of the "hate" group, it started with one or two individuals observing those characteristics in one individual at a time and, after several observations in which the observations held "true" (nevermind the wildly flexible shifting of each "standardized" observation), they were then applied wrongly to the whole group...sort of that same "scientific" thought that holds that "if A is true and B is true and C is true out of a list of A - E bad qualities, then most likely D and/or E is going to be true also".


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RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 7:30:17 AM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline

So Sly,
 
How do you go about finding a play partner if you think labels are invalid? 





I am not saying that I don't use them or that they are evil, I am saying that they are extrememly limiting and it would be nice if we could get beyond them as quickly as possible, and that we should be aware that when we apply them to others we diminish them in some way.



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Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

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RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 7:33:26 AM   
severetorture


Posts: 14
Joined: 2/15/2006
Status: offline 		A label is a starting point only,anyone that bases any judgement or opinion purely and simply on the use of one word is bound to be disappointed in the actual fact.I would like to believe that we are all more than a mere definition,that there is always more than meets the eye and deeper levels to one's psyche.Otherwise,we really would only need the checklist in our profiles.
Discussion is the only way to learn about a person in this medium,it is the crux of growth.

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RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 7:42:51 AM   
SirDominic


Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone


I believe that labels, when applied to others, serve no purpose other than to provide people with a false sense of superiority or an inflated sense of meaning to what it is that they do.



Although there are those who certainly use labels for this purpose, I don't believe it is the primary reason for labels. As several have already suggested, labels are a beginning, and are useful in getting a general idea about someone. To learn who they really are, you have to get past the labels, or at least learn how they define their own labels. I think of labels as a useful sort of shorthand.

In a big, complex world, there is no way anyone can process every nuance all the time. They would probably go insane. Labels give us a speedy guide to sort out the world. The problem arises when people use the labels as if they were the meaning instead of the beginning of the meaning.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

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RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 7:45:33 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		http://www.collarchat.com/m_847613/mpage_1/key_labels/tm.htm#847750
Testing for the dynamic label

http://www.collarchat.com/m_615892/mpage_1/key_labels/tm.htm#615900
Food for thought

http://www.collarchat.com/m_605105/mpage_1/key_labels/tm.htm#605262
Philosophies concerning bdsm labels

http://www.collarchat.com/m_566727/mpage_1/key_labels/tm.htm#566808
Are we defined only by our labels?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_515260/mpage_1/key_labels/tm.htm#515339
labels!!

http://www.collarchat.com/m_211188/mpage_1/key_labels/tm.htm#211207
A question about labels


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RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 7:47:57 AM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Greetings..~smiles~

Just as importantly is the fact that often many people take a persons different view of such a label and state they do not fit that label as signs of "hate" or "being superior". Sorry but people disagree. I'm not going to constantly define and re-define a meaning of a label that I have in order to make every single person using that label feel okie dokie with it. If I disagree with it, and their use of it or their meaning of it..then I will say so. It isn't done maliciously. It isn't done out of hate. It certainly isn't done because I feel superior. It is done as a mere expression of me. They can take it however they wish. Some take it bad and as a attack, and some take it as..hmm..you know ..although I still don't agree with your version of it..you might be right that how I am applying it to myself isn't right either and I'll look more into it. No harm no foul.

I want to find others that feel that calling themselves slaves comes with certain standing ways of thought and actions. This is not easy to do unless I express what my thoughts on being a slave are. This is not possible unless at some point I express also and equally what I feel are not thoughts/actions of being a slave are, and I don't support them.

I expect and accept back what I put out. This is normal and the communication game.

Well Wishes
starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

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RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 10:41:25 AM   
MsParados


Posts: 183
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline 		what I would like to know is where are all these people that use these labels to feel better? Maybe it's just me but as of right now, in real life, in the realm of kink I have never encountered someone that thought they were "better" than someone else cause of how they labeled themselves. It is only online that this slave is better than sub who is better than a bottom, that I have found this happening. (which I ignore anyway cuz its bs, for all we know the uber online slave could really be a lonely person with no life.) Seriously though does anyone find that this is a common problem in their scene?

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RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 10:42:59 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		Labels are useful. They are a way to summarize parts of my identity.

I can say "I am a dominant" and instantly, people will have the general idea that I want to be in control of my relationships

I can say "I am a sadist" and instantly, people will know I enjoy inflicting pain.

The problem is when people try and decide what labels to use for other people and what those labels mean to them. Everyone's identity is different so what our labels mean is purely individualistic. Start a thread called "What is a dominant?" and every answer you get will be different in some way or another, because the definition of the label "dominant" is based on each person's individualized needs, wants, desires, philosophies, ideals, etc.

When people start saying "Well, your not a dominant because of 1, 2, and 3" then it becomes a form of stereotyping.






< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 3/20/2007 10:43:46 AM >

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RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 10:50:19 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados

what I would like to know is where are all these people that use these labels to feel better? Maybe it's just me but as of right now, in real life, in the realm of kink I have never encountered someone that thought they were "better" than someone else cause of how they labeled themselves. It is only online that this slave is better than sub who is better than a bottom, that I have found this happening. (which I ignore anyway cuz its bs, for all we know the uber online slave could really be a lonely person with no life.) Seriously though does anyone find that this is a common problem in their scene?


In the two communites I have had some involvement and interaction with, I have seen it and it really annoys me. Nobody does it in public, but its whispered in the corners. "Shes not really a submissive.", "Well shes just a submissive and not a slave." "Hes not really dominant."

People make these comments, then when I ask "Okay well what do these words mean?", half the people cant really give an answer and the other half the answers all different.

Luckily I have this "One True Way" pamphlet I got at a Vendor's Faire that has all the official definitions so I am enlightened.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

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RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 10:51:03 AM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		To a degree I agree with this Sir..however..some labels used do come with certain conotations of what is meant by them..have been pretty long standing..and widely accepted. When people go to trying to fit their size 20 hiney into a size 3 dress and say they are a size 3 is when there is just as much of a problem.

I dont consider it so much stereotyping as I do just having a consistency of something for some sort of balance in communication.

Well Wishes
starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

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RE: The Fallacy of Labels - 3/20/2007 10:56:08 AM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		Yeah, LadyEllen is on the right track here. To be philosophical for a second, every word in the language is a label for something. The key is understanding the complexities and overlapping of various labels. We are not only the specific label.

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