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Why looking too hard can ruin your chances - 4/18/2005 2:21:07 PM   
AAkasha


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My experience is with male submissives only, so I am not sure if this applies at all to anyone else into BDSM.

You often hear subs complaining about their inability to find a compatible femdom for a longterm relationship, no matter how much they try. I've met a lot of these subs online and in person over the years, and one of the biggest challenges they have is that they are often socially way behind their "vanilla" competitors. Remember that a femdom does have the option of dating a vanilla guy and "converting" him -- especially if she's not hardcore and just likes a regular dose of aggressive, kinky sex. Most men will gladly give it a try.

What is "socially way behind?" A lot of sub men spend way too much time waiting for their dream femdom and simply do not date. Now, thanks to the Internet, they can also indulge in their fantasies from their own living room on a Friday night with a cyberpartner. They keep imagining and hoping that a femdom will appear in their life and seduce them -- that the fact that she is dominant means she will be the aggressor.

When it doesn't happen, he finds himself single, older, and not practiced at the art of dating, courting, flirting or even relating to a real life woman. They are socially immature and shy to the point of being completely a wreck on a date. Often, it's very sad.

In addition, they have limited their social circles. Some do not have many friends, and few hobbies unless they are related to the Internet. What this means is they are not very interesting people. They don't have hobbies or passions outside of "finding a femdom." Painful conversations over a first date go dry because the man has nothing to say of interest about himself other than how long he has been looking for a femdom.

The next part is desperation. Because they've been waiting for "ms. femdom right" forever, the fact that they get face to face with a real one means they turn into an overzealous teenager who forgets anything about how to court, date, and not come on too strong. All the things most people learn in trial and error through their teens and 20s, these men never learned at all, because they were waiting for a femdom to appear in their life.

Are these men you can take to a work function? Introduce to your family? No, not at all. Because they are uncomfortable around people, too shy to be engaging in conversation and have nothing to talk about.

Submissives, I strongly encourage you to alter your goals of "meeting a femdom" so that they include working on yourselves. This means widening your social circles of friends (not just on the net), engaging in hobbies that keep you active and passionate about something, and don't stand in a corner -- learn to flirt. Even if it means dating a few vanilla woman. You have to learn what women like, how to communicate with them and how to exercise social manners. You also need to learn how to be interesting but at the same time know how to ask the right questions and show genuine interest.

Subs, if you had 5 days to ask a woman out, set up a date, take her out, show her a nice time and end the date properly with the intent to follow up, could you do it without the use of the Internet at all, and without 1 mention of kink? This is something you need to think about.

Because femdoms aren't just femdoms -- we're women, too.

Akasha

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RE: Why looking too hard can ruin your chances - 4/18/2005 2:56:56 PM   
ProtagonistLily


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Bless you Aakasha....

I think this is totally right on the money. Especially when you talk about the transition into being able to function in the 'vanilla' part of your life. That was my problem so often when interviewing submissives. I would think "I can't take him to a party with my regular friends," or some such variation on that.

I hope that the male subs take this to heart. Especially the part about being a woman first. I think that's so key in the entire approach.

L

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RE: Why looking too hard can ruin your chances - 4/18/2005 3:00:54 PM   
DallasDiva


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My my...you hit the nail on the head. I have ment some nice sub boys...however there are a great number of the kind you speak of, as well.


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RE: Why looking too hard can ruin your chances - 4/18/2005 3:03:34 PM   
Oumae


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Some sound advice! Ty, Aakasha.

Some do seem to forget we are people and not machines.

Oumae

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RE: Why looking too hard can ruin your chances - 4/18/2005 3:03:38 PM   
onceburned


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quote:

Because femdoms aren't just femdoms -- we're women, too.


GASP! oh no!! <runs away>


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RE: Why looking too hard can ruin your chances - 4/18/2005 4:07:20 PM   
SecretDomme


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Wonderful advice Akasha :-)

Take care,
Julie

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RE: Why looking too hard can ruin your chances - 4/18/2005 4:11:44 PM   
lil1v


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

In addition, they have limited their social circles. Some do not have many friends, and few hobbies unless they are related to the Internet. What this means is they are not very interesting people. They don't have hobbies or passions outside of "finding a femdom." Painful conversations over a first date go dry because the man has nothing to say of interest about himself other than how long he has been looking for a femdom.


I'm hoping that this is an extreme case and only includes male subs. I am a female sub. I have very few real friends and very few hobbies and I do spend an awful lot of time on the net.

I also hate dating. I am HORRID at it. I get nervous. So nervous that I could not grasp an interesting thought out of my head if you paid me. I was this way even before encountering the net.

There is also not much about me that I think people would find interesting. I live a pretty boring life. Occaisionally something interesting happens, but that is rare.

Now that said.. I have found very few people that find me boring. I can be quite engaging, charming, entertaining. Families of the people I've dated have always loved me. Some even more so than their own children.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
Are these men you can take to a work function? Introduce to your family? No, not at all. Because they are uncomfortable around people, too shy to be engaging in conversation and have nothing to talk about.


Just because they are uncomfortable on the date, might not mean they are always so.

Sometimes it takes a minute for people to warm up. Dates are a very high stress sitation for many people. I'd rather go meet my partners family for the first time than go on a first date.

There are ways to make those dates less traumatic though.. Doing things.. like Bowling.. where you can laugh at each other or cheer on each other.. Gives you something to relax and just be in the moment of, rather than stressing about how interesting your conversation is.

How about doing some paintball, or go-carts.. Something to give both of you something in common to chat about.. just might relax the situation enough for the sub to open up and tell you amusing stories.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
Submissives, I strongly encourage you to alter your goals of "meeting a femdom" so that they include working on yourselves. This means widening your social circles of friends (not just on the net), engaging in hobbies that keep you active and passionate about something, and don't stand in a corner -- learn to flirt. Even if it means dating a few vanilla woman. You have to learn what women like, how to communicate with them and how to exercise social manners. You also need to learn how to be interesting but at the same time know how to ask the right questions and show genuine interest.


Not everyone can be the Rico Suave or Don Juan of dating, and just because someone is online a lot doesn't make them socially inept.

Some people have few friends because thats what they prefer.

And yes I agree, that maybe going out and dating a few nilla might help them get better at dating in general.

and wow... "You need to learn how to be interesting".. Geez could you put on the pressure?

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RE: Why looking too hard can ruin your chances - 4/18/2005 5:22:58 PM   
SweetDommes


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lil, I understand why you would take offense at some of Akasha's post, but at the same time, if it doesn't apply to you, then don't take offense at it because it wasn't directed towards you.

I have talked to a lot of the same people that Akasha has, and a lot of others besides who fit the same profile. All they can talk about is how hard it is to find a FemDom, or how long they have been looking (which, on occation, is not as long as our first boy looked - over 6 years - or even as long as we have been looking - 3 years). It just reeks of desparation, which is not attractive or interesting.

A lot of them are also way too focused on what they *think* the lifestyle is, rather than listening to us about how we live the lifestyle (I know that not everyone lives it how we do, but if they want to be considered by us, they should probably know how we do it ... because we aren't going to do any major changes for anyone but ourselves). We have run across many who have been "trained" by online Dommes and they proceed to tell us (and keep in mind this is coming from people who have minimal to no r/t experience even in the kinky sex aspects - and we live this and have for the last 1.5 years, plus Holly and I switched for 3+ years before that) that we aren't "Real Dommes" because of our views/practices.

The advice that Akasha gave is not directed towards those who can hold conversations about things other than the lifestyle - or those who can interact with family/friends who either don't know about the lifestyle aspects of the Dom/me or are uncomfortable with the knowledge. It is directed towards those who have become so focused on *The Search for The One* that they have neglected other aspects of life and have become rather one-dimentional.

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RE: Why looking too hard can ruin your chances - 4/18/2005 6:14:54 PM   
junecleaver


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I think this is wonderful advice.

So many people devote copious amounts of time to finding that "true love." True love must be a wonderful thing, but people make themselves absolutely miserable in the process. "I can't find my one true subbie to serve me and my every whim. My life is incomplete until I find that which I seek. I am so lonely with my one and only. Oh how frustrating dating is!"

I would rather just live my life and bump into someone eventually.

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RE: Why looking too hard can ruin your chances - 4/18/2005 6:16:38 PM   
Shayna


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Akasha's advice is great for anyone that is single and dating. Creating a rich, fulfilling life as a single person makes that person happy and is the ONLY way to lay the groundwork for a successful relationship: two happy, whole people coming together. Not two lonely, needy souls desparately looking for companionship and probably settling for less than what they really want. The truth is that looking for someone to fulfill you and make you less lonely is a recipe for disaster. Believe me, I've been there!


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RE: Why looking too hard can ruin your chances - 4/18/2005 6:37:37 PM   
Padriag


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Speaking as a male dom, I agree 100% with what AAkasha has to say, it applies to us looking for female subs as well. It also applies to quite a lot of male doms as long as we're being blunt honest. It worries me some how much I see female subs or male doms who apparently don't have a life outside of their BDSM fantasies. I cringe everytime I see some male dom put something in their profile like "BDSM is my life". These are people I avoid. I've always looked for some "points of interest" in female submissives.. what do they read, what hobbies do they have, are they creative, artistic, musical, do they have any other talents or skills I might find interesting. Sure, keeping a girl naked on a leash all day is an appealing fantasy, and one you can live out occasionally, but speaking personally I need a lot more than just that for the relationship to work.

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RE: Why looking too hard can ruin your chances - 4/18/2005 7:57:48 PM   
harmony3709


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Coming from a female submissive point of view, I found the OP rather interesting, mostly because I think the points that were made could apply to anyone, Dom or sub, male or female.

When I date or talk to someone with the possibility of dating in the future, I consider the vanilla interests and character traits to be as important as anything BDSM related. In my own personal search, if I am talking to someone whose only interest is lifestyle topics and is uninterested in talking about anything else, that is a pretty clear red flag to me and I will rarely go any further. I wouldn't even think about bringing them to a work or family function, because they don't appear to be interested in that part of my life.

What I also found interesting is that I don't usually assume it's due to any fault on their part. I figure we just don't "click" or more often, that what they really are looking for is a compatible play partner versus a relationship with a submissive. (Although they will typically claim that is not true.)

However, it is a good point that if someone has stopped the rest of their social life while waiting for the right partner, their social skills may become a bit rusty. I also like to know about someone's personal interests and hobbies and so on, and if they didn't have any outside of BDSM, I'd definitely be concerned.

Be well,
harmony

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RE: Why looking too hard can ruin your chances - 4/18/2005 10:12:32 PM   
MaitresseEden


Posts: 477
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From: Houston, Texas
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Amen!.. Preach it Sister!

This Applies to everyone.. We all need a life outside of the Kink.. and we all need to be able to balance the kink with everyday life. This notion that D/s excuses people from having to work at having a relationship and any interests outside of kinky ones is unrealistic and absurd. In fact, I would venture to say that the sure fire way to loose a Dommes interest would be to only care about the kink, and not life in general.

It is so important for ones mental health and wellbeing to have interests outside of kinky ones. Regardless if others think it is interesting or not, so long as you enjoy it.. you should have a place for it in your life. I know not everyone gets off to Clay like I do, or to books, and opera.. but if someone is going to fit into my life, they have to be at least willing to experience it on occassion. Why subs don't plan dates is beyond me..

Yes, I can plan a date, and yes If I want to do something specific I will take control and do it. That doesn't mean that you can't say " Mistress, I got two tickets to such and such this weekend.. would you like a night out? Or even something as simple as sending flowers.. yes it is cliche and it doesn't work for everyone and I know many woman who "insist of these types of things" The problem is.. if we insist on this things, we get called bitches or money dommes, and to be honest it takes the joy out of getting it if we have to demand it all the time. The simplist thing and thoughtful romantic gestures endear you to us.. if men would only figure that out, they wouldn't have near the problem with finding Ms. Right.. ( or vice versa for that matter).

I also refuse this silly notion that some subs have that wanting such behavior somehow makes one less dominant. What it makes them is Human. If you want a cookie cutter android without emotions or feelings, then stick to cyberspace.. Real people ( healthy well adjusted ones) need emotional, physical, spiritual and intellectual connections with thier partner(s).

Stepping off my soapbox now.

Ms. Eden

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RE: Why looking too hard can ruin your chances - 4/18/2005 10:36:07 PM   
lil1v


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

lil, I understand why you would take offense at some of Akasha's post, but at the same time, if it doesn't apply to you, then don't take offense at it because it wasn't directed towards you.


I may have jumped on the post a bit too harshly.. maybe. But I wanted to bring to light things from the "otherside".. Its easy to judge people wrong from a first date gone wrong.

And yes.. Desperation on anyone isn't attractive.

Yes we all want someone who's whole life doesn't revolve around sex or BDSM.

Yes well rounded individuals are much more interesting and attractive as well. I'm not saying they aren't.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes
The advice that Akasha gave is not directed towards those who can hold conversations about things other than the lifestyle - or those who can interact with family/friends who either don't know about the lifestyle aspects of the Dom/me or are uncomfortable with the knowledge. It is directed towards those who have become so focused on *The Search for The One* that they have neglected other aspects of life and have become rather one-dimentional.


From what I read, it seemed she judged people on the first date whether they'd be able to interact with her family/friends. But maybe I'm reading more into it than I should.

And neglecting life to pursue the search.. well.. I'm afraid I've been guilty of that once or twice, though not for long. Eventually even I have to venture out into the sunlight. :)

One dimentional is definately not me.. but I have met them. On both sides, Dom/me and sub. Its not very attractive.

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RE: Why looking too hard can ruin your chances - 4/18/2005 10:52:48 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lil1v
But I wanted to bring to light things from the "otherside".. Its easy to judge people wrong from a first date gone wrong.

No Lil, I'm sure Akasha knows that dates don't go well sometimes; that people sometimes are a little slow coming out of their shells, and sometimes the chemistry is just wrong.
quote:

And neglecting life to pursue the search.. well.. I'm afraid I've been guilty of that once or twice, though not for long. Eventually even I have to venture out into the sunlight. :)

We all have been guilty of that or we wouldn't have met at a site like this one.

Trust me, Akasha is right on the money here. I Hate meeting people without any initiative in courtship of a woman, where I have to explain the basics, and he looks at me like I'm high maintenance when I haven't even gotten close to where I'd act like entitled Bitch Goddess (where I go when I've determined a date over, lol). Maybe TOPCAT could write How to be a gentleman 101?? Come on Lawrence help us ladies out, and the men who hope to date us. M


< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 4/19/2005 11:19:49 AM >


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RE: Why looking too hard can ruin your chances - 4/18/2005 11:22:27 PM   
AAkasha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

quote:

ORIGINAL: lil1v
But I wanted to bring to light things from the "otherside".. Its easy to judge people wrong from a first date gone wrong.

No Lil, I'm sure Akasha knows that dates don't go well sometimes; that people sometimes are a little slow coming out of their shells, and sometimes the chemistry is just wrong.
attractive as well. I'm not saying they aren't.

quote:

And neglecting life to pursue the search.. well.. I'm afraid I've been guilty of that once or twice, though not for long. Eventually even I have to venture out into the sunlight. :)

We all have been guilty of that or we wouldn't have met at a site like this one.

Trust me, Akasha is right on the money here. I Hate meeting people without any initiative in courtship of a woman, where I have to explain the basics, and he looks at me like I'm high maintenance when I haven't even gotten close to where I'd act like entitled Bitch Goddess (where I go when I've determined a date over, lol). Maybe TOPCAT could write How to be a gentleman 101?? Come on Lawrence help us ladies out, and the men who hope to date us. M



Yes, lil1v, BlkTallFulFig is right -- I didn't mean just one date would determine it. And from your posts I don't think you fall into this category at all.

And I agree also with BlkTallFulFig about explaining to subs what courting is about and they think it is high maintenance. I think some sub men are attracted to the fantasy of a dominant woman because to them it means they don't have to pursue, to take initiative and take risks. They don't have to initiate a first kiss or initiate sex. They don't have to ask her out. They don't have to plan a date. This is why they remain single!

But they also don't learn how to have a good conversation, how to ask questions. Another part of the fantasy is that they just get asked the questions and they respond. They do not do anything or say anything without being told. You see this kind of behavior even in chatrooms -- if a femdom goes into a room full of subs, they either start grovelling or just type nothing at all, waiting to be asked questions.

Courting takes work. It also takes skills that require some practice and trial and error.

And, I'll add that I am the pursuer in my relationships for the most part -- I have always been the one to approach a man, to start things up, to initiate the first kiss. Sometimes, to ask for the first date, or tell him flat out "call me and ask me out." But if the time comes to sit down and have a conversation and he's got nothing to say except oozing compliments (yes, you CAN over compliment) or asking about kink, it can appear pretty dismal.

There are books about how to date, how to court, and about etiquette (don't get me started on that -- staring inappropriately, poor table manners, and poor hygeine..urgh). Subs should read them. There is an adjective you should strive for, whether you are very, very shy or completely outgoing: CLASSY.

That's what women want.

Akasha

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RE: Why looking too hard can ruin your chances - 4/18/2005 11:47:41 PM   
lil1v


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*giggles* I'm getting evil ideas... (for the betterment of the male population of course)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

But they also don't learn how to have a good conversation, how to ask questions.


Hmm.. I'm thinking .. For these socially inept.. Requiring them to take a class in communication at their local Community College before futher consideration. They have to send you a copy of their final grade. *grins evilly*

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
Another part of the fantasy is that they just get asked the questions and they respond. They do not do anything or say anything without being told.


Hmm.. maybe a report on Assertiveness?

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
Courting takes work. It also takes skills that require some practice and trial and error.


How about they need to read and subscribe to Cosmo or some such girl magazine for education on how to please a woman and what women really want? Dating tips and what not..

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
There are books about how to date, how to court, and about etiquette (don't get me started on that -- staring inappropriately, poor table manners, and poor hygeine..urgh). Subs should read them. There is an adjective you should strive for, whether you are very, very shy or completely outgoing: CLASSY.

That's what women want.


Hmm hygene and table manners.. I think there are classes on that as well.

Course all these complaints you have of male subs, I also have of some male Doms or males in general.

No one wants someone who doesn't want to better themselves. May some proactive males will read this and take on the suggestions themselves.

We can only hope.. right?

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RE: Why looking too hard can ruin your chances - 4/19/2005 4:28:32 AM   
LadyAngelika


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AAkasha!

I have to agree with and others here that you got it on the money. It is one of the reasons I have stopped looking for submissives on this site and others.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
Remember that a femdom does have the option of dating a vanilla guy and "converting" him -- especially if she's not hardcore and just likes a regular dose of aggressive, kinky sex. Most men will gladly give it a try.


This is usually what I end up doing. And I can turn some into pretty hard core believe it or not. I can be hardcore now and then but I don't need hardcore regularly. And I have open relationships so I can go get hardcore when I want.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
Speaking as a male dom, I agree 100% with what AAkasha has to say, it applies to us looking for female subs as well. It also applies to quite a lot of male doms as long as we're being blunt honest.


Padriag,

Agreed. And let me add to the record, as I date both female and male submissives that I find that you can’t only apply this to male subs. And I’ve seen this behaviour in Dom/mes as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
Speaking as a male dom, I agree 100% with what AAkasha has to say, it applies to us looking for female subs as well. It also applies to quite a lot of male doms as long as we're being blunt honest. It worries me some how much I see female subs or male doms who apparently don't have a life outside of their BDSM fantasies. I cringe everytime I see some male dom put something in their profile like "BDSM is my life". These are people I avoid.


I won’t say that it worries me because, and not to sound like selfish bitch, but I have enough of my own stuff to worry about. But I do find it alarming. And I do see it as a big “don’t even go there” sign. But it’s not just BDSM. It’s every situation where someone hyper-focuses on something, neglecting other healthy social aspects of their lives, whether it be sports (à la Fever Pitch), pop culture obsessions (Trekkies et al.) or fetishes and kink.

I personally tend to be attracted to a more well rounded individual who can converse on a variety of topics and doesn’t come across as a one note samba. But then again, that's just my opinion ;)

- LA

<edited to fix quotes>

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 4/19/2005 4:29:25 AM >


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RE: Why looking too hard can ruin your chances - 4/19/2005 6:02:44 AM   
joecool


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Interesting. Anyone know the exact quote from Lincoln (if he even said it) "If I had three hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend two sharpening my axe". The New Bottoming book mentions that if you really want to land the partner of your dreams, you need to spend time making yourself the person your ideal partner would want. Thanks for your thoughts.





Edited: I'm pretty sure I'm close to the actual passage, but it's been a while since I read it. I may be wildly mis-citing.

< Message edited by joecool -- 4/22/2005 7:44:18 AM >

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RE: Why looking too hard can ruin your chances - 4/19/2005 6:15:35 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
Speaking as a male dom, I agree 100% with what AAkasha has to say, it applies to us looking for female subs as well. It also applies to quite a lot of male doms as long as we're being blunt honest.


Padriag,

Agreed. And let me add to the record, as I date both female and male submissives that I find that you can’t only apply this to male subs. And I’ve seen this behaviour in Dom/mes as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
Speaking as a male dom, I agree 100% with what AAkasha has to say, it applies to us looking for female subs as well. It also applies to quite a lot of male doms as long as we're being blunt honest. It worries me some how much I see female subs or male doms who apparently don't have a life outside of their BDSM fantasies. I cringe everytime I see some male dom put something in their profile like "BDSM is my life". These are people I avoid.


I won’t say that it worries me because, and not to sound like selfish bitch, but I have enough of my own stuff to worry about. But I do find it alarming. And I do see it as a big “don’t even go there” sign. But it’s not just BDSM. It’s every situation where someone hyper-focuses on something, neglecting other healthy social aspects of their lives, whether it be sports (à la Fever Pitch), pop culture obsessions (Trekkies et al.) or fetishes and kink.

I personally tend to be attracted to a more well rounded individual who can converse on a variety of topics and doesn’t come across as a one note samba. But then again, that's just my opinion ;)

- LA

<edited to fix quotes>


I absolutely agree... a well rounded sub is a wonderful thing. However, if a sub isn't as well rounded as I like, but it bright and willing to learn I can teach her some things. So as long as she has a good "foundation" to build on I can still work with that. But with me a girl has her best chances if she has some variety in her life, has read a few books (and I don't mean romance novels), gone out and lived life a litte. I don't care if she has no experience in the lifestyle, that part is the easiest to teach. With me at least, a girl who has gone out and tried every fetish there is is probably less likely to impress me.


quote:

ORIGINAL: joecool
The New Bottoming book mentions that if you really want to land the partner of your dreams, you need to spend time making yourself the person your ideal partner would want. Thanks for your thoughts.


That's a good point and some damn good advice for both doms and subs. If you want to attract some one, be the person they would be attracted too. I want a sub with a well rounded life... I figure she's going to want that as well so I've worked to be a well rounded person.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 20
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