quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
If it all comes down to compromise, still, someone must be willing to be on the short end of the stick.  There's no pretty way to paint that.

quote:

 Ultimately, one person has the authority to have the final say - period.

quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea


You indicate that in your relationship, you include the input of the sub and use your authority responsibly. I can imagine a situation where the dominant's decision is not as responsible. I can imagine someone new to dominance where ego or intransigence drive a decision not adequately contemplated, and the role is used to justify it. And even when the sub's input has been invited and there is disagreement, I think the resolution follows similar principles as the case when no input is invited.

What happens if you have invited the input of a sub but you two still disagree and he feels very strongly about the matter?

Cheers,

Sea

quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold
I think I would really like to have an example of something that might cause you such magnitude of concern, after getting to know and living with a Lady that could cause you to end the relationship. 

For me, examples of major decisions are city of relocation, where to purchase a house, matters regarding beginning or ending my career, maintaining family ties, etc. If there is a disagreement, it does not necessarily mean an end of the relationship, and I am suggesting an approach similar to what is taken by couples without a D/s dynamic. I think a decision that has the support of both partners has a stronger basis than one that relies only on authority defined by D/s roles. Sure, such a disagreement could mean the end of the relationship. More often, I hope it leads to a compromise. I think the outcome--whether it will be a compromise or an end of the relationship--will depend on how important the matter is to each and how important the relationship is. If the matter is of moderate importance to the domme, and high importance to the sub, I imagine the domme would compromise and vice versa, or a different alternative would be sought. If the matter is of equal importance, and there is no third alternative, there may well be a stalemate.

quote:

I am not a "My way or the highway" in every single area.   But when I know I have more experience or knowledge regarding something, and My input is completely refused because "he knows best" it is more of an indication that this is someone who is not going to let go of much control.  Especially when it happens early and often.

I am not suggesting a unilateral decision by the sub and favor a mutual decision. I am instead describing the opposite: when a sub does have experience or knowledge but his input is rejected based on the role (dominant knows best). In my opinion, the role itself does not define expertise or better judgment. Sometimes the domme knows better, sometimes not. I sense you agree.

You indicate that in your relationship, you include the input of the sub and use your authority responsibly. I can imagine a situation where the dominant's decision is not as responsible. I can imagine someone new to dominance where ego or intransigence drive a decision not adequately contemplated, and the role is used to justify it. And even when the sub's input has been invited and there is disagreement, I think the resolution follows similar principles as the case when no input is invited.

What happens if you have invited the input of a sub but you two still disagree and he feels very strongly about the matter?

Cheers,

Sea

I always enjoy your posts so much.  This one caught my attention in such a way that I simply had to respond.  What a coincidence that the other post (on another thread) that I felt inspired to respond to also involved Dusty (we really must keep meeting like this ).  At any rate, all this talk about agreeing and disagreeing leaves out a very important factor in the equation...the scenario is being presented as a relationship.  With that understanding I am thinking the parties involved know one another fairly well...or should.  The value of D/s being acknowledged in a relationship is that the communication, if the relationship truly is D/s, is 100% honest 100% of the time, therefore, like it or not there are very few, if any, surprises.  Then beyond that...within the situation there may be one in the relationship who is firmly locked in whatever position they brought to the table, while the other is fine with compromise.  It could be either one of them in either position, and within the D/s structure and understanding, that would be just fine...as long as the structure of the relationship wasn't damaged and the communication remained 100% honest 100% of the time.  It's all a matter of consideration and what is best for all.  I suppose the level of commitment, by both parties involved, is a real consideration also.  Dedication is a two way street. 

You asked, "What happens if you have the input of a sub but you two still disagree and he feels very strongly about the matter?"  That question is what caught my eye as I browsed the topics.  What does happen?  I would be interested to know the sub perspective on that, but mine is that the matter should be either tabled to allow more time for researching the issue being considered for more information, for the parties involved to "rest their minds" from the issue for a little while which will allow them to approach it fresh and refreshed later on, or allow that ultimately one must compromise for the good of the relationship, if the relationship is meant to have any longevity at all.  It takes two to...tango  

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyBeckett


You asked, "What happens if you have the input of a sub but you two still disagree and he feels very strongly about the matter?"  That question is what caught my eye as I browsed the topics.  What does happen?  I would be interested to know the sub perspective on that,

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs
I see both sides brissle when there is strength show and a command/demand tone about one another.  At times, it takes 'skill' in wording things as to be dominant without being domineering.
In addition, there will always be personality conflicts that will crop up.  Communication really has to be mutual and respectful on both sides. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyBeckett
You asked, "What happens if you have the input of a sub but you two still disagree and he feels very strongly about the matter?"  That question is what caught my eye as I browsed the topics.  What does happen?  I would be interested to know the sub perspective on that

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
I actually don't think it's a hard dynamic when it's working and both people are devoted and mutually invested in the relationship.. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyBeckett
At any rate, all this talk about agreeing and disagreeing leaves out a very important factor in the equation...the scenario is being presented as a relationship.  With that understanding I am thinking the parties involved know one another fairly well...or should. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyBeckett


You asked, "What happens if you have the input of a sub but you two still disagree and he feels very strongly about the matter?"  That question is what caught my eye as I browsed the topics.  What does happen?  I would be interested to know the sub perspective on that,

For me, once it hits the point where it is obvious that we're at an impasse, I'm going to give ground here and check my ego at the door. In the end, it's going to be her decision, even if I disagree with it. What that would say to me is that if she's REALLY in charge of the two of us, there has to come a point where she is going to REALLY be in charge of the two of us. That translates to decisions, politics, religious questions, to practically everything. I may disagree vehemently, but if she's listened to my protest and has decided that she's still right, the true test of the relationship and its power dynamic is whether or not I am going to go along. I teach debate to a nationally ranked university team, so if I can't convince her of something I believe in, then perhaps it's time to check my opinion at the door and realize that perhaps this is one battle best not fought.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressFL

quote:

ORIGINAL: pixelslave
I think you are truly quite right! There are several schools of thought that seem to abound here. Some of the ladies here are very rigid here in their expectations and not at all willing to compromise in the least. They seem to be looking for total submission from a man. Frankly, it is indeed very rare to find a man who is capable of giving a woman (or another man) that kind of submission. Like anything, there are degrees to which men & women are submissive by nature.

There are those, who seem to be less common, that are looking for more of a submissive, but partner oriented kind of relationship. Personally, I think they have a better chance at successs, provided they're still willing to compromise at least somewhat in what they seek.

Then there seem to be those that are looking for service slaves of some kind, cuckholds, non-sexual submissive relationships, complex poly relationships, or multiple subs with varying purposes for each.

Clearly, there's a large variety of what women are looking for out there which is difficult for some of us to discern. On the flip side of the coin, I'm sure it's probably as varied with the men.

What I see more than anything, regardless of what people are looking for is a "shopping list" of qualities or characteristics they expect potential partners to have and no desire or ability to compromise when someone comes close to meeting their list. Its as if those who are looking forget that the others they are meeting are people too with their own unique talents. abilities and experiences they have to offer as an added bonus we don't always see. How rigid do we have to be on our lists of wants and desires? What's the cost to us in lost time and pleasure when we could be having fun with someone who we just might be very compatible with us?

Perfection is a myth. Unless you're truly perfect yourself, don't expect your ideal partner to be either. If you really think you are perfect, I'd suggest you seek help from a mental health professional. Having good self esteem is one thing, but being out of touch with reality and out of touch with what your strengths and weaknesses are is an entirely different matter.

My point is that I see long lists of why things didn't work out. Most look about the same. Obviously some issues on the lists are quite valid. Yet others are perhaps less so. Only those who wrote them will ever really know. My only suggestion is that for those who are searching, that you really think about what is most important to you, and what things on your lists that you're willing to compromise on (to me, life is a series of compromises). Once you do, you may just find there's someone out there who could be exactly what you are looking for.

- pixel

Wow, I read this reply over and over again and each time I was more floored than the last. You make it sound as if the only chance we have is to settle for a male that will let us "Top" him from time to time but for the most part be a vanilla relationship. I do not know what circles you travel in outside of CM but I assure you there are many males that live a life of surrender to their owner (in and out of the bedroom). It is not as uncommon as you seem to think it is from my personal observation. I will concede that the pool of available ones is much smaller but there are still plenty out here!

When it comes to laundry lists, standards and compromise, I think that there is such a thing as having unrealistic expectations, however, who is to say they are unrealistic outside of the person trying to meet them? You certainly cannot decide that for me nor can I decide that for you.

It was never my intent to tell anyone what they can or cannot find, nor whether or not their expectations were realistic, only that often I've found in the vanilla world that those who have been searching for a very long time for a partner have very rigid and unrealistic expectations and are quite often unwilling to compromise on things of little importance to most.  Nothing I said was meant to be interpreted as a personal judgement of anyone's situation or circumstances. 

I'd also like to add, that my definition of compromise doesn't at all equate to "settling".  In part, it was used in the context of "big things" vs "little things"; i.e. priorities or choosing what is most important to you.  In other contexts, and of equal importance, there is also a skill to be learned for creating "win-win" situations that can often be used as a part of creating compromises, which is far different from settling or leaving two parties feeling as though one of them "won" and the other has "lost".   

quote:


Those that I have met including myself are simply looking for someone that is "perfect for them".

That's a far better way of phrasing it than I did.  Thank you for doing so!

quote:


Keep the faith ladies! Do not allow messages of gloom and despair hinder you from what you seek.

quote:

MisPandora

Pixel --

Am I hearing you right in that you expect the dominant woman to forgo all of what she expects in order to accomodate other's needs?  What about hers?  Clearly, I've misunderstood what you're trying to say..... 

No Ma'am, I think you need to have your hearing checked.

As a sub (the "slave" part of pixel originated many years ago from my occupation, where I sometimes felt like a slave to my work), I think for a relationship to work for the long haul (please note the emphasis on relationship), both parties must be getting their needs met.  To my way of thinking, both a Domme's needs and a sub's needs are equally important.  If a sub isn't happy, he's not going to be inclined to do his best to make his Mistress happy; nor is he likely to continue to be her sub for a lifetime.  I can say that as a submissive who is speaking from the experience of having found the courage to walk away from his Mistress and divorce her following 15 years of marriage; a Mistress who had increasingly became verbally and emotionally abusive - a woman he'd unselfishly served who all too often didn't care in the least if his needs or desires were being met. 

The gist of what I was saying is that a little bit of compromise in what one is looking for and willing to give in return, might make for a very sucessful relationship in which both parties would be very happily getting their needs met.

That's all the time I have at the moment to respond to any of the comments that were made in response to my original post.  I hope that helps clear up more questions about what I had to say than it adds to any confusion about it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn


For me, once it hits the point where it is obvious that we're at an impasse, I'm going to give ground here and check my ego at the door. In the end, it's going to be her decision, even if I disagree with it. What that would say to me is that if she's REALLY in charge of the two of us, there has to come a point where she is going to REALLY be in charge of the two of us. That translates to decisions, politics, religious questions, to practically everything. I may disagree vehemently, but if she's listened to my protest and has decided that she's still right, the true test of the relationship and its power dynamic is whether or not I am going to go along. I teach debate to a nationally ranked university team, so if I can't convince her of something I believe in, then perhaps it's time to check my opinion at the door and realize that perhaps this is one battle best not fought.

This is totally different, though.  When you are talking about opinions on things like politics, religions, etc. if your femdom has a different viewpoint, that doesn't mean you should.  That would translate into the sub being a mindless drone who just gives up his own belief system to appease or kiss ass.  Not the same thing at all as having input and final say on a decision that will have immediate impact; ie making a large purchase, having sex or not, or where to go on vacation.  That's different from opinions on political, social or philosophical issues.

quote:

For me, examples of major decisions are city of relocation, where to purchase a house, matters regarding beginning or ending my career, maintaining family ties, etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold
 
What I am seeing basically, is that Pixel has presented very valid examples of what could cause a relationship to require less surrender.  From his POV, he is seeking a lapse into vanilla equality for various reasons that he feels are valid and should be considered reasonable and automatic that both parties get an equal say and make only a mutually acceptable final decision.  I do not see it as requiring less surrender, but more reason. 
 

Did I say that??  

I thought I said, or at least implied, that it greatly depended on the style of D/s relationship and the parties involved.  

While I did say I was inclined toward a D/s relationship oriented toward circumstances where there was also a partnership between the Mistress and sub, I don't recall in any way saying how I envisioned decisions would be made.  I used the term partnership, in that we would both be in the relationship together sharing goals for our mutual benefit, a long term future together, behaving as friends and lovers, as well as Mistress and sub, with many activities and outside interests that I'd hope we'd share.  How decisions would be made would greatly depend upon the woman who was my Mistress, the manner in which we decided it would be in our best interests, plus the most comfortable and/or easiest for us to handle them.  I don't know that it would necessarily be a situation where all decisions would be of the sort where both parties would have an equal say (although it's possible they might, or perhaps at least in certain areas).  While I wouldn't necessarily expect something as nice as a "mutually acceptable" final decision to be made, I would at least expect a "mutually tolerable" final decision on things of great importance to one or both parties, if nothing else, simply for the sake of the relationship.

quote:


 
The slave should know the Dominant well enough to feel confident that these things should never be a major problem.  But the boys often need to hedge their bets with the big "what ifs".  I find Myself wondering if this is because it is the last straw they can hang onto to try to prove that it is not reasonable for them to surrender completely.   It's a lack of trust, or a need to hang onto that last bit of choice. 

 

As I said in an earlier post, I think there are degrees of inherent submissiveness that vary from person to person; something that you might put on a large sliding scale.  As such, I'm not certain that every submissive is capable of total surrender.  Then again, I could be wrong and it might be a matter of finding the right dominant; one who can elicit that last bit of surrender a submissive otherwise can't seem to relase.  I really don't know if that's the case or not.

quote:


 
Remembering to temper all this with the fact that I seek a slave...not a submissve.  For those who differentiate, they can work out their own areas of nogotiation.  I don't negotiate.  I accept information and opinions that may sway My final decison.  I am also serious when I say that once you are in My collar, unless I release you Myself, you have given up the ability to choose.  Trust Me to choose correctly, with your input when necessary and/or appropriate.  If you can't do that, then you don't belong with Me.  And your final choice is always, of course, to leave. 

 
The statements quoted above may be at the root of the "straw" you see men hanging onto.  In essense, they only have one choice, "your way or the highway".  Perhaps, they're trying to leave some "wiggle room" as they learn to adjust to that kind of mindset?  I don't really know as it's a place I'd never try to directly go.  But to each their own.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MisPandora

quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive

But those posts weren't describing pixelslave specifically, and so I don't think we can legitimately heap our frustrations on him. 

The way I read his post, he wasn't suggesting that a person change their core needs.  I'm not willing to be pissed off at him because he's had the temerity to show up, express himself and suggest that a D might be willing to be flexible on some small things.  I really dislike laundry lists.  Maybe that's why I resonated with his post. 

I'd rather save my ire (and it's there!) for men who send one liners, who can't bloody spell, and who are wankers.

MSS

Perhaps you read something into what I wrote that wasn't there.  There was no ire there at all; just asking for clarification on what he said and why it was said in the context of this thread, given what's been said thus far.

I hope you've found the clarification you were looking for in the follow-up posts I've found the time to submit to the board. 

To use your analogy, I'd see things as allowing for someone to miss the mark by more than one tiny little qualification and a whole lot less than missing the boat by a week; perhaps allowing for several days at most (but not a lot more)!  Please note: your actual boat's speed, destination, and nautical mileage may vary.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pixelslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold
 
What I am seeing basically, is that Pixel has presented very valid examples of what could cause a relationship to require less surrender. 

Did I say that??  

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

quote:

For me, examples of major decisions are city of relocation, where to purchase a house, matters regarding beginning or ending my career, maintaining family ties, etc.

I would have no problem with mutual discussion on any of these things and would automatically do so. It is a sign of respect for your partner, regardless of the relationship.

quote:

I cannot imagine a reason why a slave would not agree to moving to a different house. If he had sound reasons, then those could and should be relayed to the Dominant

quote:

But this is an example where the slave does not present Me with his family schedule and then tell Me that if I don't like it, then I can find another slave. Because I will...find another slave, that is! *Wink*

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I can see a very bad situation when a sub does not agree and says "You are just being stubborn and want your way because you are the femdom. Well, I want my way, because I am right."  Here's another way to avoid this situation: don't partner with someone you find dangerously irresponsible. Most subs indicate they want to partner with a woman who is as intelligent as he is, if not more.

quote:

ORIGINAL: basque48


It seems that a lot of men who are truly drawn to the overall premise of FemDem
that I have encountered, who profess to want to engage in this lifestyle, in the
end cannot truly submit. They themselves are dominant, strong willed, and just
cannot give over the control they have bared their souls to tell you they *must*
to be truly satisfied and happy. 

Its truly a puzzling issue to me. Could it simply be that FemDom in general
has taken on so many hard line connotations? 

quote:

ORIGINAL: pixelslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: basque48

Its truly a puzzling issue to me. Could it simply be that FemDom in general
has taken on so many hard line connotations? 

I think you are truly quite right!  There are several schools of thought that seem to abound here.  Some of the ladies here are very rigid here in their expectations and not at all willing to compromise in the least.  They seem to be looking for total submission from a man.  Frankly, it is indeed very rare to find a man who is capable of giving a woman (or another man) that kind of submission.  Like anything, there are degrees to which men & women are submissive by nature.
 
There are those, who seem to be less common, that are looking for more of a submissive, but partner oriented kind of relationship.  Personally, I think they have a better chance at successs, provided they're still willing to compromise at least somewhat in what they seek.
 
Then there seem to be those that are looking for service slaves of some kind, cuckholds, non-sexual submissive relationships, complex poly relationships, or multiple subs with varying purposes for each.
 
Clearly, there's a large variety of what women are looking for out there which is difficult for some of us to discern.  On the flip side of the coin, I'm sure it's probably as varied with the men.
 
What I see more than anything, regardless of what people are looking for is a "shopping list" of qualities or characteristics they expect potential partners to have and no desire or ability to compromise when someone comes close to meeting their list.  Its as if those who are looking forget that the others they are meeting are people too with their own unique talents. abilities and experiences they have to offer as an added bonus we don't always see.  How rigid do we have to be on our lists of wants and desires?  What's the cost to us in lost time and pleasure when we could be having fun with someone who we just might be very compatible with us? 
 
Perfection is a myth.  Unless you're truly perfect yourself, don't expect your ideal partner to be either.  If you really think you are perfect, I'd suggest you seek help from a mental health professional.  Having good self esteem is one thing, but being out of touch with reality and out of touch with what your strengths and weaknesses are is an entirely different matter.
 
My point is that I see long lists of why things didn't work out.  Most look about the same.  Obviously some issues on the lists are quite valid.  Yet others are perhaps less so.  Only those who wrote them will ever really know.  My only suggestion is that for those who are searching, that you really think about what is most important to you, and what things on your lists that you're willing to compromise on (to me, life is a series of compromises).  Once you do, you may just find there's someone out there who could be exactly what you are looking for.  
 
 - pixel