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RE: Are there any Dominants who don't care about submis... - 4/27/2007 9:31:54 PM

Aswad

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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: boundkitty

There is a certain percentage of the female population that simply don't have vaginal orgasms.

That percentage is fairly large, IIRC, although it isn't a statistic I've had any particular interest in looking up.

quote:

Some women are actually born without a G-spot.

To cite a certain pathologist from around here: "I have examined many vaginas over the years, and I have never found any accumulation of nerves in the location where the G-spot is supposed to be."

The general area is sensitive, and an erogenous zone. There are glands you can exert pressure on, loosely equivalent to the prostate in that they are derived from the same tissue, and there are areas that are more sensitive than others. But beyond that, there doesn't seem to be any spot that is inherently as sensitive as the G-spot is supposed (rumored?) to be, although it is certainly possible to have an orgasm as a result of the expectation that it will be. YMMV.

If there is a G-spot, as an anatomical feature rather than a social construct of sorts, it doesn't seem to be present in the general population. Which brings us to:

quote:

I myself have never had a vaginal orgasm, but can orgasm clitorally.

The clitoris is analogous to the glans of the penis. Some men are able to orgasm from stimulating the shaft, some only from stimulating the glans. A few are able to orgasm from mental stimulation. Given that the tissues are identical up to a certain point in the development of a foetus, I would imagine that the ability to have a vaginal orgasm is due to either indirect stimulation (akin to a gentler, slower stimulation of the glans, which many men get stronger orgasms from, but not all have the patience for) or stimulation of nerves that are analogous to the shaft of the penis and/or the prostate gland.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to boundkitty)

RE: Are there any Dominants who don't care about submis... - 4/27/2007 9:44:11 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

But if someone is physically nonresponsive and literally not aroused, I really can't see how their energy says, "I'm here, I want to be here, I'm joyous about being able to have sex with you."

If you can't trust their words, you'll just have to learn to read the other parts of their body language, the one's screaming "This is what I want", or stick to people who respond the way you like.

A good place to start is pupil dilation. If their pupils are more dilated that the relative lighting level would suggest, then they are mentally aroused and/or feeling intimate and/or liking you. If they are more contracted than they should be, then they might not be having a good time, and you'll have to look at whether they feel:

content,
safe,
loved.

Those are the three most basic pillars of human happiness. Orgasms aren't.

You can be physically aroused during rape, and some individuals can even experience an orgasm. Men more so than women, but it's by no means exclusive to men. In either case, this conflict between the emotional and physical responses typically causes no end of emotional distress and anguish. And it is frequently used to justify the assault (the "she liked it"-defense), which I think is completely invalid.

It is not the physical response that defines whether they are happy about the situation. It is the mental response, and the long-term bits. Some subs are probably not even into any of the kinks we'd usually associate the lifestyle, and may also be asexual, but may still derive a sense of contentedness, safety and love from that kind of relationship that they simply cannot find anywhere else. Different strokes for different folks, as the saying goes.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Wildfleurs)

RE: Are there any Dominants who don't care about submis... - 4/27/2007 9:57:55 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

The problem in your description is that wetness, color of the vagina, flushed or physically being hotter, pertrubance of the clitoris from the hood and flesh surrounding it are automatic signs of arousal and enjoyment. Meaning if there is actual and real enjoyment, desire to be there (as opposed to equally being interested in doing something non sexual like painting the walls), and joyous engagement it will automatically show physically.

You realize that this statement legitimizes a fairly large number of sexual assaults, in which there is absence of consent, but presence of such physical signs?

Yes, it is autonomous, which is a subtle shade away from automatic, and does not in any way, shape or form require the connection "arousal and enjoyment", although you could argue arousal, depending on your definition of the term.

The autonomous responses of our nervous systems are regulated by a wide variety of factors. They are also beyond conscious control, although it is possible to acquire some measure of indirect control through training (e.g. I can consciously lower my heartbeat by 30-50%, or raise it by 50-100%, as demonstrated by cardiac monitoring). In some cases, their regulation works in a different way than usual.

Note that this autonomous response is designed to welcome semen for fertilization, not to indicate that an emotional connection to the mate exists. For the latter, pupil dilation is a far more reliable response, which is why people have put atropine in their eyes for centuries, as there are few ways of faking it that don't involve external chemical influence.

quote:

Conversely, if there is no physical arousal, then the body is displaying what is actually going on internally with the person (mental arousal setting off a set of triggers physically like dominoes coming down).

Absence of physical arousal, or a reduced degree of it, doesn't have to be a sign of anything. From a biological point of view, the most likely explanation is some hormonal clue that procreation is undesireable at this point. From what daddyprops247 has posted in the past about maternal instincts and babies, this would seem a plausible explanation in her case.

Conversely, the presence of physical arousal during rape is a desireable response from the evolutionary perspective (evolution is slow; humans are a scant few hundred millenia old as a species, not enough to make large changes to their wiring). Quite simply, the perpetrator would, in a "barbaric" (naturalistic/primitivist) society, be a strong candidate for procreation, and would be likely to provide strong, physically healthy offspring. This means it is desireable, again from an evolutionary perspective, for the female to respond in the manner that is most conducive to impregnation.

As I said, the biology of it (and autonomous responses are controlled by biology) has nothing to do with the emotional and cognitive aspects of it.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Wildfleurs)

RE: Are there any Dominants who don't care about submis... - 4/27/2007 10:07:14 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

Now you may be cerebally satisfied with being able to provide a service of sex, but thats not what my owner is interested in (again going back to joyful complete embracing of the activity, not just going through the motions). Cerebral satisfaction gives you what you want, but just wouldn't be what he wants (and for us, since he's my owner, he gets what he wants).

Physical pleasure is mediated by the cerebrum, primarily the nucleus accumbens, and its stimulation does not require orgasm. I submit that any satisfaction of the individual, not just their body, is cerebral satisfaction, on these grounds. And if you think that cannot be achieved by any other means than orgasm, feel free to back that up with fMRI, PET or SPECT studies that show otherwise in an orgasm refractory population, or a decent neurochemical explanation to indicate it cannot happen. As far as I know, we aren't even close to the familiarity with the function of the nucleus accumbens required to reach a conclusion about that.

quote:

I can provide some citations for that if you want, I had to refer back to a book or two on my shelf to make sure I wasn't just imagining that what I said wasn't literally biologically correct.

Yes, please. I'd be very interested in how the chemical cascade involved requires it to be initiated by specific brain systems that are involved in desire, and which ones this would be.

I'm also pretty certain a lot of defense lawyers out there would be, as well, given how it would be incontrovertible physical evidence that, yes, "she did", in fact "want it".

More likely, these citations will be dealing with how it presents in primates generally, and what the typical physical signs are in humans. And, as a med student I know once put it, "I'm loath to say typically, as there's nothing as atypical as the human body".

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Wildfleurs)

RE: Are there any Dominants who don't care about submis... - 4/27/2007 10:18:40 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Orgasms are also good for your skin and release chemicals that have been to shown to alleviate depression. Orgasm can simply be part of regular maintance, much like grooming.

I couldn't comment on the skin, or (despite researching the topic) that it provides any long-term relief from depression. Could you provide citations or sources for the latter?

With the depressed people I know, it seems that sex goes down and masturbation goes up, and that this is proportional to the "depth" / "intensity" of the depression, which does not indicate a positive correlation, but my samples aren't representative, so I'd honestly love to read up on this if you have some sources. Psychiatry, and the treatment of depression in particular, is a very interesting topic for me.

I would point out that it results in (short-term) an increase in prolactin, decrease in testosterone and decrease in dopamine. This is generally consistent with causing depression, not curing it, unless there is psychosis involved. Of course, it may still be that these responses have an exclusively short-term effect, and that there is a long-term effect at work here that is different.

Are you sure it's not more specifically related to relationships than orgasms? That would make a lot more sense to me, and the ability to perform sexually is often inversely correlated to the severity of the depression, while it is positively correlated to the likelyhood of a good "typical" vanilla relationship, both of which are good prognostic markers.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: Are there any Dominants who don't care about submis... - 4/27/2007 10:44:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
A good place to start is pupil dilation. If their pupils are more dilated that the relative lighting level would suggest, then they are mentally aroused and/or feeling intimate and/or liking you.

Gotta be careful with this one folks...lol.

quote:

Some causes of pupil dilation include:

Illicit drugs

Emotion

Drug overdose

Medication overdose (type of Medical misadventure)

Certain medications

Certain eyedrop medications

Brain injury

Stroke

Brain tumor

Coma

Adie's syndrome - causing one pupil to react more slowly than the other.

Blindness

Third nerve palsy

Eye nerve irritation

"I swear officer I thought she was really having a great time...her pupils were dilated and everything. How was I supposed to know she had a brain injury and had slipped into a coma?"

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: Are there any Dominants who don't care about submis... - 4/27/2007 11:03:56 PM

Posts: 278
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From: Missoula Montana
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I don't particularly care whether a sub comes from my fucking her at my whim, as I consider that to be for my pleasure. If she does, fine. If not, that is fine too. I do care whether she can be brought to orgasm, when I want to do so. That is also for my pleasure, as it demonstrates another factor of my control.

A sub who did not consider an orgasm as a reward, would not be likely to get one as often.

_____________________________

GrizzlyBear

"Come to the edge," he said.
They said, "We are afraid."
"Come to the edge," he said.
They came. He pushed them. And they flew.
~Guillaume Apollinaire

(in reply to daddysprop247)

RE: Are there any Dominants who don't care about submis... - 4/28/2007 3:23:14 AM

Aswad

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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Gotta be careful with this one folks...lol.

Well, duh. There are things that will interfere with just about any part of body language, including arousal. Although, the likely reasons from that list are drugs (licit or illicit), and a recent visit to the ophthalmologist. Judging from the links, though, I'm not sure I'd consider it a good source.

And there's a pretty big difference between mild pupil dilation and mydriasis. The latter is typically the result of α1-agonists, α1-reuptake inhibitors or α2-presynaptic antagonists, ACh-antagonists or catecholamine releasing agents; all of which will result in a slew of other effects, unless topically applied (which brings us back to that bit about the ophthalmologist). Your pupils don't get that large from arousal.

quote:

"I swear officer I thought she was really having a great time...her pupils were dilated and everything. How was I supposed to know she had a brain injury and had slipped into a coma?"

~lol~

Well, it beats the one going: "I thought she was really having a great time ... her vagina was responding. How was I supposed to know 'no' meant 'no'?".

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: Are there any Dominants who don't care about submis... - 4/28/2007 4:52:46 AM

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
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Using fast reply...

I'm literally on my way out of the door, but I wanted to say Aswad a couple of things

1. You are focusing on orgasm, I keep on trying to point out that she mentioned sexual arousal and thats what I've been talking about in my posts (and to be more clear I was focusing on why my owner actually wants to have sex with someone thats sexually aroused, not with someone who is not).
2. You focus on pupil dialation as an indicator of, "mentally aroused and/or feeling intimate and/or liking you" except again I'm talking strict automatic physical sexual responses to someone.
3. I'm not even touching the issue of rape, because I think its a red herring that takes away from the value of the actual topic
4. You already agree with me that there are automatic reactions that happen to indicate arousal (it can't be autonomous if its all happening inside the same persons body). However, you say that the automatic reactions I'm pointing out to indicate sexual arousal, "is designed to welcome semen for fertilization, not to indicate that an emotional connection to the mate exists." Again I think you misunderstood my post because I never said that those automatic responses indicated an emotional connection to the mate. And while the automatic reactions may be designed for one thing, given the different gender couplings possible these days, thats hardly its actual use.

C~

< Message edited by Wildfleurs -- 4/28/2007 5:03:30 AM >

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: Are there any Dominants who don't care about submis... - 4/28/2007 5:01:32 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Judging from the links, though, I'm not sure I'd consider it a good source.

It was meant as humor.....do we now have to back up jokes with good, strong, empirical data? Guess all those "why did the chicken cross the road" jokes are right out the window now.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: Are there any Dominants who don't care about submis... - 4/28/2007 5:31:00 AM

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No offense Aswad,

I see you have deconstructed a couple of my posts... it's just too much, sorry, and I think it is probably hijacking the thread.

If you want to send me an email or something that would be fine... but I usually just skip over your posts as they are too long winded and preachy without much of anything to back them up but your own personal convictions.

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: Are there any Dominants who don't care about submis... - 4/28/2007 6:34:18 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Orgasms are also good for your skin and release chemicals that have been to shown to alleviate depression. Orgasm can simply be part of regular maintance, much like grooming.

I couldn't comment on the skin, or (despite researching the topic) that it provides any long-term relief from depression. Could you provide citations or sources for the latter?

With the depressed people I know, it seems that sex goes down and masturbation goes up, and that this is proportional to the "depth" / "intensity" of the depression, which does not indicate a positive correlation, but my samples aren't representative, so I'd honestly love to read up on this if you have some sources. Psychiatry, and the treatment of depression in particular, is a very interesting topic for me.

I would point out that it results in (short-term) an increase in prolactin, decrease in testosterone and decrease in dopamine. This is generally consistent with causing depression, not curing it, unless there is psychosis involved. Of course, it may still be that these responses have an exclusively short-term effect, and that there is a long-term effect at work here that is different.

Are you sure it's not more specifically related to relationships than orgasms? That would make a lot more sense to me, and the ability to perform sexually is often inversely correlated to the severity of the depression, while it is positively correlated to the likelyhood of a good "typical" vanilla relationship, both of which are good prognostic markers.

Here's a nice little study showing that orgasms can (please note it's can, because it won't help every person for every thing unless you are really lucky) help with everything from cramps, to getting to sleep, to even looking younger. However, I feel the research does show that orgasm could be considered a part of simple maintaince.

Planned Parenthood - The Health Benefits of Sexual Expression

I am still not saying that one should force orgasms on their sub if they are unwilling. That would violate consent after all. However, she asked, in so many words, "Why on earth a dominant would be concerned with a sub's orgasm?". Here we have evidence that shows the orgasm is good for the body on many different levels. And yes, it does address the depression issue. Sex drive does go down during the cycle of depression, however the chemicals released during orgasm alleviate depression. From a very personal point of view, I can assure you that orgasms help to alleviate depression.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 4/28/2007 6:42:04 AM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: Are there any Dominants who don't care about submis... - 4/28/2007 7:33:48 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

1. You are focusing on orgasm, I keep on trying to point out that she mentioned sexual arousal and thats what I've been talking about in my posts (and to be more clear I was focusing on why my owner actually wants to have sex with someone thats sexually aroused, not with someone who is not).

She made a stronger point about the O's. And, as she pointed out, she engages in sex actively. But, yeah, I see your point. Personally, I have no need for sexual arousal in my partner, but I'd not be happy about it if they weren't emotionally fulfulled. For some, though, that doesn't necessitate arousal.

quote:

2. You focus on pupil dialation as an indicator of, "mentally aroused and/or feeling intimate and/or liking you" except again I'm talking strict automatic physical sexual responses to someone.

Autonomous physical responses may be something that interests your Master. For me, I'm more interested in what's going on in their heads, and whether they're happy about things. Pupil dilation is a better indication of whether it's a positive experience than arousal is, IMO, although by no means the only indication, and not really the best one either; I initially mentioned it to someone, maybe you, who said the physical signs needed to be present for it to be anything more than "going through the motions", which I disagree with.

A sub can put a lot of passion into something that doesn't get him/her off.

quote:

3. I'm not even touching the issue of rape, because I think its a red herring that takes away from the value of the actual topic

It's a valid point. If the autonomic responses indicate arousal, as you said, then the person on the receiving end of one is aroused. If it indicates desire, as I feel you implied, then the person on the receiving end desires it. I would like to know which of these is the case, if any, and what you base it on.

The citations are relevant to thread in general, though.

quote:

4. You already agree with me that there are automatic reactions that happen to indicate arousal (it can't be autonomous if its all happening inside the same persons body).

Autonomous, in a biological sense, refers to mechanisms in the organism that are self-regulated (closely related to the concept 'automatic', but not quite identical) and generally beyond direct conscious control, with some notable exceptions like breathing.

quote:

However, you say that the automatic reactions I'm pointing out to indicate sexual arousal, "is designed to welcome semen for fertilization, not to indicate that an emotional connection to the mate exists." Again I think you misunderstood my post because I never said that those automatic responses indicated an emotional connection to the mate.

Why then would it be, in any way, negative for a sub to engage in sexual contact without sexual arousal, or a Dom to use a sub for sexual purposes?

That was kind of the point, earlier, that it's a perfectly valid, and positive, way to go, as well as the idea that a Dom requiring physical responsiveness from their sub in order to get off is more about the Dom than simply using the sub for the Dom's pleasure is.

quote:

And while the automatic reactions may be designed for one thing, given the different gender couplings possible these days, thats hardly its actual use.

No, but it does give a few pointers as to what the causual relationships might be.

For instance, the same things that underlie her wish not to want children (IIRC) could quite plausibly be the reason she does not get aroused (if she doesn't).

Sorry if I've misunderstood your posts. Your answers to this one should clear things up.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Wildfleurs)

RE: Are there any Dominants who don't care about submis... - 4/28/2007 7:35:00 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

It was meant as humor.....do we now have to back up jokes with good, strong, empirical data? Guess all those "why did the chicken cross the road" jokes are right out the window now.

Oops. Sorry. I sometimes don't catch jokes very well, particularly online. Now that I know it was one, I'd say it's a good one.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: Are there any Dominants who don't care about submis... - 4/28/2007 7:44:40 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

"No offense Aswad,"

None taken.

"I see you have deconstructed a couple of my posts..."

I was trying to address what you brought up; I don't see how this is deconstructing them.

"I think it is probably hijacking the thread."

Sorry if that is the case. I started at page one, and kind of ended up replying along the way. Would you prefer a digest format? I've tried to stick to the topic set forth by the OP, although replying to points raised by others in the course of the debate. It has never been my intention to hijack the thread, and points about how I may have done so would help me avoid it in the future.

"If you want to send me an email or something that would be fine..."

About what, exactly? I'd love to, but I'm not sure what, if anything, you'd like to talk to me about. :)

"but I usually just skip over your posts as they are too long winded"

Sorry about the long-windedness. If you have any suggestions as to how I might compactify the content without losing what many have called clarity in their PMs, feel free to PM me about it, and I will try to be more brief in the future.

"and preachy without much of anything to back them up but your own personal convictions."

What backing, exactly, would you suggest? All any of us have to go on is our own experiences, most of the time.

I could start annotating my posts with citations, but I doubt that would add to the clarity or brevity of my posts in any way.

Kind regards,
Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to puella)

RE: Are there any Dominants who don't care about submis... - 4/28/2007 8:00:19 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

However, I feel the research does show that orgasm could be considered a part of simple maintaince.

Thank you for that link. I was aware of the general health benefits, as I've pointed out elsewhere, but not the tie-in with depression. I'll look into the papers cited, but from the summaries, it looks to be about correlation, not causation, and specifically about sex, with small sample sizes (105 people in total for the two studies about depression). Still, it will probably make for interesting reading.

quote:

However, she asked, in so many words, "Why on earth a dominant would be concerned with a sub's orgasm?". Here we have evidence that shows the orgasm is good for the body on many different levels.

The studies apparently talked about sex, which she has, rather than orgasms, which she doesn't usually have (again, from what I remember of the thread). I can see the health side of things, sure, but I'm not convinced that the findings generalize to her case, while I'm fairly certain that pushing her would lead to fairly predictable, negative results.

In general, I'd say it's a good thing to provide one's sub with mutual sexual satisfaction, if the Dom is involved in health management or it is desired by the sub. I'm just saying that I don't think daddyprop247 is alone in this, and that in those cases, it may be more harmful than beneficial.

I think we're pretty much in agreement on this, though.

quote:

From a very personal point of view, I can assure you that orgasms help to alleviate depression.

From my own personal POV, I've always found that effect to be very short-lasting, but I realize there will be variation, and I'll definitely put those studies on my reading list.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: Are there any Dominants who don't care about submis... - 4/28/2007 8:30:12 AM

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Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

However, she asked, in so many words, "Why on earth a dominant would be concerned with a sub's orgasm?". Here we have evidence that shows the orgasm is good for the body on many different levels.

The studies apparently talked about sex, which she has, rather than orgasms, which she doesn't usually have (again, from what I remember of the thread). I can see the health side of things, sure, but I'm not convinced that the findings generalize to her case, while I'm fairly certain that pushing her would lead to fairly predictable, negative results.

In general, I'd say it's a good thing to provide one's sub with mutual sexual satisfaction, if the Dom is involved in health management or it is desired by the sub. I'm just saying that I don't think daddyprop247 is alone in this, and that in those cases, it may be more harmful than beneficial.

I think we're pretty much in agreement on this, though.

quote:

From a very personal point of view, I can assure you that orgasms help to alleviate depression.

From my own personal POV, I've always found that effect to be very short-lasting, but I realize there will be variation, and I'll definitely put those studies on my reading list.

The effect may be short lasting, but so is any depression treatment. A good round of sex with several releases can last me a few days. A pill only lasts me one. Plus, the orgasms are much cheaper then pills or therapy and comes with mutiple side benfits.

Is she alone her non-desire for orgasms? Definately not. Do I think she should be pushed to have orgasms? Definately not. But I do think she should realize that dominants who want their subs to have orgasms are not making sex all about the submissive. Valyraen takes his pleasure when he feels like it. If it were all about me, I'd be getting a lot more sex.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: Are there any Dominants who don't care about submis... - 4/28/2007 9:24:39 AM

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

Have not read the whole thread..however..many sub/slaves do find their needs met through servitude and partners pleasure..and some do not..yes stand and applaud that which you agree with. But also understand that just because others do enjoy the "orgasmic experience" does not mean they are less entrenched in their submission than you..I hope you know I do not mean to be "attacking", but occasionally I get the impression Daddy's prop that you feel that if submissives do not practice submission as you do, then they are , not submissive ,but just simply kinky vanilla's.. We all have our ways...none more or less than any others...Tempting

Tempting...you are not the first person (and probably won't be the last) to mention getting such an "impression" from my postings. while yes it's true i have some very firm ideas about submission, i certainly do not consider myself to be anything even close to an ideal. but like most of us, it's my continual goal to grow and aim to be the best submissive and slave that i can be. there is a bar if you will, set by my Master, and tho i may only get my fingertips on it, i'm trying my darndest to reach it. that bar represents the submissive "ideal", in my world anyway. so, in my postings regarding submission, my focus will always be on that bar. no disrepect or offense is meant to others who perhaps have a different bar, we each have our own path in this, but i must keep my eyes on the prize, so to speak.

it's funny that some find my posts exclusionary because i often feel the same thing from most here. see mistoferin's post detailing how "vastly different" she feels my Master and i are from everyone else for an example. after some time it can have one feeling like a freak among freaks, not accepted, understood, or even really wanted. so when i encounter another person who may have a similar bar, a similar vision of submission or of this lifestyle, then yes i will (literally) stand and applaud, because it's like finally! maybe...just maybe i belong here after all.

/end hijack

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)

RE: Are there any Dominants who don't care about submis... - 4/28/2007 9:27:09 AM

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

The effect may be short lasting, but so is any depression treatment. A good round of sex with several releases can last me a few days. A pill only lasts me one. Plus, the orgasms are much cheaper then pills or therapy and comes with mutiple side benfits.

Is she alone her non-desire for orgasms? Definately not. Do I think she should be pushed to have orgasms? Definately not. But I do think she should realize that dominants who want their subs to have orgasms are not making sex all about the submissive. Valyraen takes his pleasure when he feels like it. If it were all about me, I'd be getting a lot more sex.

lol...good point. however i never thought that any Dominant, no matter his particular style or flavor, would make sex all about the submissive.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: Are there any Dominants who don't care about submis... - 4/28/2007 9:44:31 AM

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

The effect may be short lasting, but so is any depression treatment. A good round of sex with several releases can last me a few days. A pill only lasts me one. Plus, the orgasms are much cheaper then pills or therapy and comes with mutiple side benfits.

Is she alone her non-desire for orgasms? Definately not. Do I think she should be pushed to have orgasms? Definately not. But I do think she should realize that dominants who want their subs to have orgasms are not making sex all about the submissive. Valyraen takes his pleasure when he feels like it. If it were all about me, I'd be getting a lot more sex.

lol...good point. however i never thought that any Dominant, no matter his particular style or flavor, would make sex all about the submissive.

Must have misread. Sorry! *grins* But yeah... We'd much rather just have a "Aqua needs some orgasms" day then pay out of the ass for therapy and pills.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to daddysprop247)

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