RE: Question about a no limit slave

Join Our Community

Collarchat.com

Home Login Search

RE: Question about a no limit slave

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Master >> RE: Question about a no limit slave

Page: << < prev 3 4 [5] 6 7 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Question about a no limit slave - 5/7/2007 1:51:50 PM

GloriousJen

Posts: 11
Joined: 4/29/2007
Status: offline

A true master would not do that, A proper master should care for the slaves health and safety.

(in reply to WilliamWizer)

Profile

Post #: 81

RE: Question about a no limit slave - 5/7/2007 1:55:24 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GloriousJen
A true master would not do that, A proper master should care for the slaves health and safety.

The 4 letter word!

What if someone I call 'true' is someone who does something you consider inappropriate? Are you are or am I?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to GloriousJen)

Profile

Post #: 82

RE: Question about a no limit slave - 5/7/2007 3:07:22 PM

OsideGirl

Posts: 14412
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WilliamWizer

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

There is no such thing as a no limits slave .... they just haven't yet met their limits.

Yup. Whenever we meet a "no limit sub/slave" Master always says..."Go down to the convenience store, rob it and kill the clerk. Then after you come back we'll hang you from a shark hook." Suddenly, they develop limits.

that was fun.
but I think that with the expresion of "no limits" usually they refer to "my only limits are those imposed by Master judgement. I belive he will take care of me and won't ask me to do anything that will harm me or send me to jail."

I happen to agree with that. But, the issue is that these submissives are making that statement to a complete stranger. It's common sense. Don't go throwing your limits away until you absolutely understand the morality views of the person you've thrown them away for.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WilliamWizer

a true master would have never ask his slave to do that kind of things.

"True" is a relative term. What's true to me might not be true to you.

Next: There is no certification programs for Masters/Doms/Dommes. In my experience submissives in throes of "sub-lust" don't always make good decisions. It's amazing the things they will overlook in their Dominant while on their quest for the "brass ring" of being a collared submissive/slave. So therefore, the argument goes that common sense would dictate that before you make a potentially harmful decision, you learn the facts. Which means that you don't enter a relationship with no limits. You gradually work towards that goal as you get to know each other.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to WilliamWizer)

Profile

Post #: 83

RE: Question about a no limit slave - 5/7/2007 3:29:23 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WilliamWizer

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrizzlyBear

Some "No Limits" stories I have heard:

One girl was a "no limits" slave for ten years, towards the end her master was drinking heavily and became more and more abusive, often beating her severely. Finally one night he got very drunk, broke her arm, and stabbed her several times, then passed out. She crawled out to the street, where passersby found her and called the police. She was taken to hospital, he was arrested and went to prison for attempted murder. She eventually decided not to wait for him to get out, that the contract was broken when he tried to kill her.

In a nearby city a couple of "masters" decided they needed more money for drugs, so they thought they would make a porno video and sell it. They decided it would sell better if they had Japanese girls in it, but they didn't know any, so they kidnapped a couple of them from a nearby college. They ordered their slaves to assist them in the kidnapping and the bondage, torture, and rapes that followed. Eventually the girls were released, all the conspirators were captured and the video they took was used in the trial. All are serving 20+ years in Federal prison.

A friend of mine, in her first D/s relationship, told her Master that she had no limits. So he amused himself testing her. He finally found some, when he ordered her to out herself in detail to her family, to procure her daughters (ages 16 and 21) for him to have sex with, and to go to the mall and offer to give blowjobs to teenage boys. She decided she did have limits after all. He decided she was no fun if she had limits, and released her.

Then there were the Manson girls. Murdered all those people because their Master ordered it.

Those who say no limits, would you do these things? Would you come back to a master who had tried to kill you, so he could finish the job? Would you help him commit a major crime, or kill pregnant women for him? Would you procure your daughters for him? Would you seduce children for his pleasure, in such a way that you would almost certainly be arrested?

(Edited because I sent too soon, and it wasn't finished)

no. because a simple minor detail.
the people you mention are not masters of anything. they are only abusers that call master themselves. a true master would have never ask his slave to do that kind of things.

Thanks a lot buddy. We had a really nice thread here going on this land mine of a topic and you had to come and screw it all up with the T word.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to WilliamWizer)

Profile

Post #: 84

RE: Question about a no limit slave - 5/7/2007 3:32:13 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GloriousJen

A true master would not do that, A proper master should care for the slaves health and safety.

See, William? Look what you started...

Your mother would be ashamed.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to GloriousJen)

Profile

Post #: 85

RE: Question about a no limit slave - 5/7/2007 6:57:06 PM

tsatske

Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
Status: offline

I usually call my self a 'near no limits slave'. I recognize that I have some limits -- that there are points that, if a master crossed that line, the red light button would kick in, I would leave sub space, and not be able to obey. Like actually having sex with children, harming people, killing - I always identify as limits, that I would not hurt my own children, and that alcohol is off limits. A master who tries to break those limits does not understand the concepts in question, and is not a proper master for me.
But, when I am owned, the mindset of trusting someone deeply slowly comes to that point. If someone ordered me to step into the street naked, I would think they were crazy. If my former master had ordered me to, I would not have given it a second thought, I would have obeyed. I would not have worked out the possibilities in my head -- is he going to stop me? has he somehow arranged for it to be safe so this is a fake out? I would simply have done it, and trusted that it was safe and proper.
He did, in fact, at one point, order me not to go to the hospital when I thought I needed to. I didn't go. He was sure I would agree with him the next morning. To this day I think he was wrong. But I believed the words of our contract 'It is not that Master is any less likely to make mistakes than slave, it is that, as both are equally likely, we choose, in our relationship, to let those decisions rest with Master.'
With the Master who owned me before him, there was an occasion where he ordered me to eat something that could have killed me (something I was highly allergic to). He was not testing me -- he had forgotten. I tried several times to remind me, and he wouldn't let me finish a sentence. He told me to shut up -- did I really think he would hurt me, it was just a bit of ice-cream for god's sake. he pulled it away in horror at the last minute when he suddenly remembered. The point it, when he told me to shut up and quit trying to object, and to simply obey, I leaned forward to do so. I was his property and it was his right and his responsibility. Do I think he was a good master? No, I don't, it would have been prudent to let me finish a single sentence to remind him that this ice-cream, which I had bought for him because I knew he would love it, could indeed kill me. But it was, and everything is, an ownership issue. And I obey.
My last contract gave my master specifically the right to kill me. I know that he would not be likely to, it was, mostly, symbolic language. But it was symbolic language that I needed. Anyone I am going to entrust with the immense power of ownership needs to accept the responsibilities that go with it, including responsibility for my life. It set out specifically how I could beg for release -- which he was not required to grant -- and his promise to track me down and bring me back to him if I were to run, which I knew I never would. It was clear about his responsibilities to me should he chose to release me -- to kill me, or sell or transfer me at his whim, or else to deliver me safely back to my family, which he chose to do. A real world alternative, who would have thought. But, I certainly would have accepted the other choices, as unlikely as they were.
An interesting thing is the number of Doms online who think that a slave should be 'no limits' from the moment they deign to speak to her. This is a close and trusting bond that takes a long time to build. Any Dom who has a problem with the few limits I honestly don't believe I could give up, is going to have a lot of problems with the very high number of limits I start out with, which include no penetration sex until I am owned and believe it to be a lifelong relationship. But, that's okay. If they don't like my limits, and don't want to spend the time it takes to slowly build the trust that chips away at those limits, they are not the right Master for me. It really is that simple.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Profile

Post #: 86

RE: Question about a no limit slave - 5/7/2007 9:09:44 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gloriousangel

Need some help here can you tell me what entails me to becoming a no limit slave what do I need to do

The mere mention of the concept "no limits slavery" opens up a huge can of worms on any forum...

There is a very simple definition to it, however much people want to argue semantics: being a no-limits slave entails imposing no restraints on what your owner may do to you, or with you, and making no demands of your owner.

Very few people are comfortable with this, and most of those who are, are only comfortable with it because they trust their Master/Mistress enough not to do those things that are limits for them. Like someone said, "it's easy to say you'd submit to XYZ when you know damn well the Master/Mistress won't do it anyway".

If your master wants you to become a no-limits slave, you have to carefully consider whether there are any things you would not accept him doing to you, doing with you, or ordering you to do. If there are any such things, you should not become a no-limits slave, and should instead negotiate limits with him.

The "reasonable" thing to do, for most people, would be to agree on certain basics. That is to say things like no death, no dismemberment, no forced drug use, no orders to violate core moral values.

If your Master/Mistress cannot accept such limits, and you are unwilling to allow them to impose these things on you, then you should not become their slave.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to gloriousangel)

Profile

Post #: 87

RE: Question about a no limit slave - 5/7/2007 9:15:43 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

There is no such thing as a no limits slave .... they just haven't yet met their limits.

Of course there is. And making such a statement on a thread that isn't about that is just inviting a huge detour.

Suffice to say that there are people who are willing to give prior consent to having any hard limits they might have be violated if their M so chooses. One might point out that, for instance, BeingChewsie has commented that if her Master wants her dead, he will have her dead, and that she hopes to be able to exert enough self-control not to impede him in seeing it done, although she can't be sure she'd be able to.

Just about everyone will have some things they will resist having done to them, i.e. some things they will not consent to at the time. But some people are willing to give prior consent to their M overcoming their resistance by force if necessary. Some of these, in turn, are willing to give such prior consent in all matters. That is a "no-limits slave", in the true sense of the word.

Whether one will resist or not isn't the issue; the issue is whether they give the M the right to do anything, regardless of whether they try to resist or not.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to KatyLied)

Profile

Post #: 88

RE: Question about a no limit slave - 5/7/2007 9:16:59 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: minnetar

i think for a person to become a no limits slave to find a Master who has the same values as you do. Someone who would find the basic illegal behavior as a limit as you would. Just my thoughts.

Reasonable enough approach, although people can change.

It all comes down to trust, really.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to minnetar)

Profile

Post #: 89

RE: Question about a no limit slave - 5/7/2007 9:37:19 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

it is not so difficult to find a slave who would die at her Master's will. you have found one right here. *waving*

I knew romance wasn't dead.

quote:

if one can reach the point of accepting that their life is their Owner's, then one can accept that the Owner has the right to end that life.

It's always nice and refreshing to read about your relationship. While it's not the kind I'm currently in, it is certainly one I respect and appreciate. Thanks for sharing.

quote:

personally i can think of many things far more frightening and "extreme" than death.

Definitely. Very many things.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Profile

Post #: 90

RE: Question about a no limit slave - 5/7/2007 9:41:35 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

however much of what many of us here do day in and day out is illegal in our respective regions, is it not?

This is also definitely true. Very many jurisdictions do not accept prior consent for anything other than health care and such. In fact, the declaration of human rights actually states that certain rights are inalienable, which is just another way of saying that free will isn't inalienable, which pisses me off to no end.

Fortunately for me, Norway has been kind of lenient in this regard. There's a burden of proof if the act has been established, but not the consent, of course, but provided one can give "reasonable" (depending on what was done) proof of consent, it is either considered completely legal, or a mitigating circumstance. Together with some others, I'm working on putting together a framework for establishing prior consent in D/s contexts; hopefully, we'll find someone to put it to the test in a court of law when we're done.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Profile

Post #: 91

RE: Question about a no limit slave - 5/7/2007 9:44:25 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

the OP asked how one goes about becoming a no limits slave. well the answer to that is simple, find a Master who seeks and demands such. now a better question imo would be how does a no limit slave go about staying sane and at peace? i'd sneak a peak at the responses to that one.

Let me know if you find some good responses.

As far as I can tell, this is really something that will need to be taken care of by the M if it's supposed to work out properly. A skilled (with regards to this) M can help you adapt and change to deal with things, and I certainly would if I took on a no-limits slave. But, as you've pointed out, you can't expect this.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Profile

Post #: 92

RE: Question about a no limit slave - 5/7/2007 10:03:24 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Self sacrifice and suicide are two of the most testing of acts. It requires a lot of force of will to override the natural desire to live or the complete lack of a will to live due to horrible circumstances.

I never found either of those two particularly testing, but that could be just me. As for the force of will required to override the desire to die, I've done that, and can't imagine it would be harder the other way around. During the worst part of my depressions, I hit the top half of 50 on the MADRS scale (it stops at 60, with 17 being the lower limit of major depression and 30 or so being severe). Staying alive until I got so bad I couldn't kill myself is on my top-5 list of "hardest things I've had to do".

I did it for the love of my life.

Sacrificing yourself, or ending your own life, these aren't truly hard things, IMO. I've been there, faced down the consequences, and reached my conclusions. I would do either for my love, without hesitation. I can easily see a devoted sub/slave do the same for theirs. But I may be "odd" in this regard. As always, YMMV.

quote:

Basically, what I am saying, is its a lot easier to say it as opposed to doing it.

Infinitely.

Sacrifice: Saying I'd go to hell and back for her, give up anything, and so forth, which I did do back in our vanilla days, is easy. When I had to do it, it was hard, and if I hadn't cared as deeply for her as I do, I probably wouldn't have made it out alive.

Suicide: Saying I would rather die than so-and-so, back when I was all emo kid, was easy enough. Standing with the knife to my wrist, thinking about my parents, my dog, and all the shit in my life at the time; hard. Eventually, at one point, reaching the decision that I would overdose on sodium thiopental and diamorphine, just to be (fortunately, in retrospect) prevented from doing it by others; very hard, but also very freeing (moreso than anything else; I think that's when I understood a lot of Japanese poetry).

I don't think prop is making these statements lightly, just as I think she's hoping that it won't come to that.

quote:

Sure, there is more horrendous things than death, but death has absolutely no chance of recovery.

There are other things that don't have a chance of recovery as well, some of which are worse than death by far. And there are things that subtract more from your life than death ever will.

But this is a rather bleak line of discussion, so perhaps we should turn it to something more positive?

< Message edited by Aswad -- 5/7/2007 10:16:29 PM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Profile

Post #: 93

RE: Question about a no limit slave - 5/7/2007 10:09:23 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FelinePersuasion

Just me personally, but I'd find any one who'd be willing to kill themself because I ordered them to, mentally unstable and someone I'd run faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar far away from.

I'd be concerned about it, but I'd leave the decision to a trained mental health professional. If they say the person has given it careful thought, is competent, and has made the decision without undue influence, and not as a result of some pathology, I'd take them on.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to FelinePersuasion)

Profile

Post #: 94

RE: Question about a no limit slave - 5/7/2007 10:13:42 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

Yup. Whenever we meet a "no limit sub/slave" Master always says..."Go down to the convenience store, rob it and kill the clerk. Then after you come back we'll hang you from a shark hook." Suddenly, they develop limits.

Reminds me of something another person, perhaps on this board, commented... He(?)'d bring gardening shears or somesuch in a bag to the meeting where they were to discuss limits, and if they claimed not to have any, he'd pull out the shears, and they'd change their mind right quick.

Of course, some don't change their minds. Which is all good, as well.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to OsideGirl)

Profile

Post #: 95

RE: Question about a no limit slave - 5/7/2007 10:21:02 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrizzlyBear

Some "No Limits" stories I have heard:

You might want to add Karla Homolka to that list.

But, yeah, I wouldn't take on someone as "no limits" if they weren't willing to deal with those things if I required them.

Which is not to say that I actually want to do those things, just that if they do have any, I'm going to have a definite and complete list of limits (in writing), whether the terms are specific (won't kidnap and rape kids) or generic (won't violate core moral imperatives), before I take someone on as a slave.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to GrizzlyBear)

Profile

Post #: 96

RE: Question about a no limit slave - 5/7/2007 10:28:26 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WilliamWizer

no. because a simple minor detail. the people you mention are not masters of anything. they are only abusers that call master themselves. a XXXX master would have never ask his slave to do that kind of things.

4-letter nuclear bomb X'ed out.

First of all, the thread was dealing with the condition of no-limits slavery, not the bits about being the master of such a slave. I'm pretty sure we can all agree that the people held as slaves on the cotton plantations were genuinely "no-limits slaves", although not consensual. And I'm pretty sure there have been plenty of instances where they have been ordered to do things we'd consider abominable today. Note that even you didn't make the assertion that the slaves in the examples mentioned weren't "no-limits slaves", although I'd say number #1 is debatable.

Secondly, not all of us subscribe to a moral absolutist position, which is to say that not all of us judge that a person might not be acting in accord with their own morality in performing such actions. A person acting in strict accord with their own morality is in control of themselves in that regard.

Third, one slave's Master/Mistress is another person's abuser. That is to say that, in the eyes of lots of people, all M/s relationships are abusive. For us who have already crossed the line away from the majority opinion on this, it does not do to arbitrarily choose what is abuse or not. And let's not turn it into a debate about that. If you want, you can start a seperate thread. Call it "Yet another XXXX vs XXXX Doms thread" or something.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to WilliamWizer)

Profile

Post #: 97

RE: Question about a no limit slave - 5/7/2007 10:29:39 PM

WilliamWizer

Posts: 223
Joined: 3/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: GloriousJen

A true master would not do that, A proper master should care for the slaves health and safety.

See, William? Look what you started...

Your mother would be ashamed.

being vanilla my mother doesn't even want to hear about what I write here but I couldn't care less about what she thinks or how she feels about MY life.

btw: but being a good mother she also thinks that one should take care of childs, pets, ... and submissives.

_____________________________

There's only two rules for a sub:
- she can do anything her Master didn't forbid her.
- she only needs to do what her Master told her to do.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Profile

Post #: 98

RE: Question about a no limit slave - 5/7/2007 10:44:44 PM

WilliamWizer

Posts: 223
Joined: 3/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: WilliamWizer

no. because a simple minor detail. the people you mention are not masters of anything. they are only abusers that call master themselves. a XXXX master would have never ask his slave to do that kind of things.

4-letter nuclear bomb X'ed out.

First of all, the thread was dealing with the condition of no-limits slavery, not the bits about being the master of such a slave. I'm pretty sure we can all agree that the people held as slaves on the cotton plantations were genuinely "no-limits slaves", although not consensual. And I'm pretty sure there have been plenty of instances where they have been ordered to do things we'd consider abominable today. Note that even you didn't make the assertion that the slaves in the examples mentioned weren't "no-limits slaves", although I'd say number #1 is debatable.

ok, ok. sorry to everybody. it's only that I sick of that. everytime somebody deals with the "no limits" thing everybody I see somebody writing such kind of examples to show that slaves that say "no limits" have limits.
true. it's imposible. being this consensual there's always at least one limit. the slave could say no and end the relationship at any moment but that examples are simple wrong. and yes. it's a 4-letter bomb but really... I think it's common sense to belive a master should take care of his slave and that includes keep her safe. whoever doesn't do that can't be a good master. sadly there are slaves that fall under those so called "masters" and are forced to do cruel and dangerous things.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Secondly, not all of us subscribe to a moral absolutist position, which is to say that not all of us judge that a person might not be acting in accord with their own morality in performing such actions. A person acting in strict accord with their own morality is in control of themselves in that regard.

do you consider moral to being careless with your own property? like for example not taking proper care of your childs?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Third, one slave's Master/Mistress is another person's abuser. That is to say that, in the eyes of lots of people, all M/s relationships are abusive. For us who have already crossed the line away from the majority opinion on this, it does not do to arbitrarily choose what is abuse or not. And let's not turn it into a debate about that. If you want, you can start a seperate thread. Call it "Yet another XXXX vs XXXX Doms thread" or something.

ok. I won't reply then.

_____________________________

There's only two rules for a sub:
- she can do anything her Master didn't forbid her.
- she only needs to do what her Master told her to do.

(in reply to Aswad)

Profile

Post #: 99

RE: Question about a no limit slave - 5/7/2007 11:45:26 PM

aldompdx

Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline

Aswad,
I respect your position from one perspective. From another perspective, the "no limits" slave intrinsically establishes their limits by the master they intentionally choose through the exercise of control and self-will. They choose a master with a very low probability of violating their limits; or they are self abusive -- which is not "no limits," but is destructive.

(in reply to WilliamWizer)

Profile

Post #: 100