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RE: Jane Fonda - 5/31/2006 2:59:06 PM   
ArtCatDom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMacComb
What does this have to do with the fact that we have never before without provocation invaded and occupied another country?


This it utterly false. You're engaging in some wholesale historical revisionism. Just for starters, again, please reference Haiti and Cuba. If our forcible occupations of those countries were provoked, please enlighten me.

*meow*

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RE: Jane Fonda - 5/31/2006 3:04:37 PM   
ArtCatDom


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Status: offline 		For reference this post:
http://www.collarchat.com/m_374961/mpage_6/tm.htm#399656

Suffers from improper formatting.

John, thank you for trying to keep the error from being improperly interpreted as solely my words. It is appreciated. Truly, you're a scholar, gentleman and one mean pervert.

*meow*


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RE: Jane Fonda - 5/31/2006 4:54:35 PM   
MsMacComb


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMacComb
What does this have to do with the fact that we have never before without provocation invaded and occupied another country?


Haiti and Cuba is like apples and oranges as per Iraq. There is a reason I havent replied to your repeated to your mentioning of them. They are irrelevant as per this discussion. Invading, overthrowing governments, assasinating its leaders, occupation and forcing a country to change its entire way of life never happened in either one, except Iraq.

This it utterly false. You're engaging in some wholesale historical revisionism. Just for starters, again, please reference Haiti and Cuba. If our forcible occupations of those countries were provoked, please enlighten me.

*meow*
 

So according to you we put 135K troops, plus built airports, bunkers, virtually military cities and stayed there for years just for the heck of it?

< Message edited by MsMacComb -- 5/31/2006 5:01:01 PM >

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RE: Jane Fonda - 5/31/2006 4:56:24 PM   
MsMacComb


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren
Nothing.  As you seem to keep forgetting, my response was simply to your assertation that Bush was the only president to occupy another country. 

Oh, by the way, there was no occupation of Japan or Germany following WWI.  The occupations took place a generation later after WWII.  We didn't "other countries post every other war".  In some wars, we just packed up and went home.  Note the lack of an "occupation" of either Austria or Germany post-WWI.  Have you ever read a history book?

Frankly, I'm on your side... well, I'm on the side the opposes the war.  I can't be sure of your motivation.  Your style of "moving the target" discussion smacks of a Right Wing think tank.
 

No, I never read a history book. But then I dont read much fiction so thats kind of irrelevant. Did you hear the one about Washington and the cheryy tree,,??

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RE: Jane Fonda - 5/31/2006 5:09:16 PM   
ArtCatDom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMacComb
So according to you we put 135K troops, plus built airports, bunkers, virtually military cities and stayed there for years just for the heck of it?


Strawman. Address the challenge at hand. You're the one making the preposterous claim that we've never invaded another country without provocation in the course of American history.

Haiti and Cuba. Put your money where your mouth is and tell me how they provoked us to invasion.

*meow*

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RE: Jane Fonda - 5/31/2006 5:12:00 PM   
ArtCatDom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMacComb
No, I never read a history book. But then I dont read much fiction so thats kind of irrelevant. Did you hear the one about Washington and the cheryy tree,,??


Oh, you mean the one that history books outright say is a fable?

*sighs* You're usually pretty reasonable, but you're going way off the deep end on this thread.

*meow*

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RE: Jane Fonda - 5/31/2006 5:26:35 PM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMacComb
No, I never read a history book.


It shows

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RE: Jane Fonda - 5/31/2006 6:18:31 PM   
MsMacComb


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom
Strawman. Address the challenge at hand. You're the one making the preposterous claim that we've never invaded another country without provocation in the course of American history.
Haiti and Cuba. Put your money where your mouth is and tell me how they provoked us to invasion.
*meow*


What government did we overthrow in Cuba? Put your money where your mouth is. Who was in charge?
I suppose if we sent one lone Green Beret guy into some country 80 years ago you would call that an invasion as well right? Again, apples and oranges.So, answer the question?

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RE: Jane Fonda - 5/31/2006 6:37:09 PM   
MsMacComb


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom
Oh, you mean the one that history books outright say is a fable?
*sighs* You're usually pretty reasonable, but you're going way off the deep end on this thread.
*meow*
 

You are obviously a history buff which is great. So please do me this one little favor. Go read through Japans recount of WWII. According to them (currently taught) they were fighting the good fight after we and others invaded them. They never used slave labor, never had sex slaves, were provoked, etc etc etc.
When I was going through school white men were obliquely depicted as the greatest thing ever, in the standard issue class books. They tamed the savage Indians, kept all those white women and black people in their place and used Mexicans as God intended them, laborers. This was with the exception of my being from a virtually total area of Hispanics so the teachers (being Spanish/Mexican) depicted Hispanic discoveries, advancements, works and people as being the greatest and white man was shit (their personal opinions).
I would assume that the history books were rewritten to portray a more poltically correct view these days but they are still written from the perspective of white men (as far as I know).
Saddam had his history books. Osama has his version, as does Germany, Italy, (former) USSR etc. Its great that one wants to learn about history but taking word for word everything that is shoved into our brains (also known as propaganda) according to *our* version of "history" is kind of foolish.
So yes, fable, fiction, altered, revised, biased, untrue, elaborated, embellished whatever you want to call it or as it applies. Is it all bullshit? Of course not. Is it all true and accurate? Of course not. Do I take at face value everything a "historian" or politician or preacher tells me? Of course not. They (and the Japanese) all think I'm "off the deep end" as well. 
Depending on who has control of future generations history text books they may state that Iraq did indeed have WMD and was intending to use it on the US the day before we invaded. BushCo (and all presidents) at the end of their days in the White House get very concerned about how history will portray them. If it was up to Rove/Bush/Rummie/Cheney etc, they would all be shown as the lifesavers of democracy and the greatest of all time. Sorry, but I won't allow my great grand children to believe that. But then I'm off the deep end right?

< Message edited by MsMacComb -- 5/31/2006 6:39:37 PM >

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RE: Jane Fonda - 5/31/2006 6:37:52 PM   
Pavel


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Status: offline 		Green Berets didn't exist 80 years ago (special forces as we know them are a result of experiments during the Second World War).  I think he's talking about the actions in Cuba during the Spanish American War.  Haiti has a whole host of US interventions, rangeing from Wilson's gunboat diplomacy in the twenties, to Clinton's efforts in the 90's.

In Cuba's case, it's a classic example of how stupid descion making can be on all fronts (government, military, civilian, media, you name it), although you might, just might be able to claim the sinking of the USS Maine as an example of provocation during that war (although it remains by far more likely the Maine sank as a result of an internal explosion).  However there's been plenty of military actions in Central America and the Caribbean that were of questionable nature (in which lives were lost, and damage was done, not just sneaky stuff).

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RE: Jane Fonda - 5/31/2006 6:41:36 PM   
MsMacComb


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren
It shows
 

Nice comeback. Did you work overtime on that one? Hope you didnt pull a muscle or anything.

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RE: Jane Fonda - 5/31/2006 7:03:35 PM   
ArtCatDom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMacComb

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom
Strawman. Address the challenge at hand. You're the one making the preposterous claim that we've never invaded another country without provocation in the course of American history.
Haiti and Cuba. Put your money where your mouth is and tell me how they provoked us to invasion.
*meow*


What government did we overthrow in Cuba? Put your money where your mouth is. Who was in charge?
I suppose if we sent one lone Green Beret guy into some country 80 years ago you would call that an invasion as well right? Again, apples and oranges.So, answer the question?


Your ignorance is showing.

We invaded in 1906 after Cuba held disputed elections. What had the Cubans done to provoke the American aggression?

Or what about when we invaded Haiti in 1915? What act of war did the Haitian people do against us?

Put up or shut up.

*meow*




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RE: Jane Fonda - 5/31/2006 7:24:48 PM   
MsMacComb


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom


< Message edited by MsMacComb -- 5/31/2006 7:54:13 PM >

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RE: Jane Fonda - 5/31/2006 7:43:31 PM   
ArtCatDom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMacComb

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom
Your ignorance is showing.

We invaded in 1906 after Cuba held disputed elections. What had the Cubans done to provoke the American aggression?
Or what about when we invaded Haiti in 1915? What act of war did the Haitian people do against us?
Put up or shut up.
*meow*
 

Nice big talk, but your short man complex is showing through though which is never a good sign. As usual, like others here, you wish to harp on the same points again and again and while you demand others reply to your moronic questions yet don't reply to theirs. There was a long history (Spain's pullout) between the US and Cuba, but then you wouldnt know that would you.
You seem incapable of grasping the difference between police action and an outright invasion and occupation. Could be semantics but then I didnt think going that route was yours but rather left to two others that live here.
The US and other countries, on a regular basis, send troops into other countries for a variety of political and humanitarian reasons. Everyone knows this. That doesnt mean their objective is regime change, murder, long term occupation, engaging in activites with the hopes of (forced) change of religious beliefs, looting etc. You may wish to classify them all as the same thing and then debate the finer points till you sit in a rocking chair. 
Bottom line is this, there has NEVER been a point when the US invaded and occupied another country just because the jackass president was a lunatic, wanted to finish a Hatfield/McCoy feud, steal oil and profit from it. Again, you never answer my questions but now wish to start making insults. To bad. I can't go that route as if I reciprocate everyones favorite banning biased moderator will start censoring my posts so theres no real point.
So answer my questions or shut the f up, lol.  

Guess I better edit the "F" word as there are children here.


What the hell are you talking about? I did answer your question. We stepped in during an election dispute. If you want a clearer answer, they were the elections to choose the next President after Palma. I'm fully aware of the history with Cuba that took place as a result of a Spanish-American War. It doesn't change the fact that we invaded and occupied their country in 1906.

You also completely ignored the issue of the invasion of Haiti (and subsequent 19 year occupation).

I would also note that you keep changing the target, as befits someone who can't defend their position.

*meow*




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RE: Jane Fonda - 5/31/2006 8:07:07 PM   
MsMacComb


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Status: offline 		What the hell are you talking about? I did answer your question. We stepped in during an election dispute. If you want a clearer answer, they were the elections to choose the next President after Palma. I'm fully aware of the history with Cuba that took place as a result of a Spanish-American War. It doesn't change the fact that we invaded and occupied their country in 1906.
You also completely ignored the issue of the invasion of Haiti (and subsequent 19 year occupation).
I would also note that you keep changing the target, as befits someone who can't defend their position.
*meow* [/quote] 

What some would call a peacekeeping mission (during election disputes) to avoid chaos, civil unrest, civil war, genocide etc you call an invasion/occupation. So be it. I do believe that was the case.
And yes, I can't defend my postion against you, not unlike how I can't defend my position if debating something with a religious wingnut. They, no matter what refer back to their fictional bible, you no matter what refer back to your little fictional history books. (You read Japans history books yet?) How can one defend truth against someone that lives in a fantasy world?
You take decades of involvment between Cuba and the US and make it sound like we just one day up and decided to invade Cuba just for fun in 1906. According to you we just moved troops and munitions there, totally out of the blue and then started slaughtering people. Same with Haiti. If thats how you and your precious little biased fiction history books wish to view things then there is nothing that I, nor anyone else can do to change your mind. There can be extenuating circumstances, there can be police action that alleviates a potential crisis, and there can be an occupation/invasion that serves no purpose but for retribution and Christian based violence (did you read PFNAC yet and how we doing on Japans version of "history").
Oh well. I guess when we (and whats left of the UN) next step into an African country to do humanitarian aid you will call it an occupation. Whatever, talking to you is a waste of time.

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RE: Jane Fonda - 5/31/2006 8:26:14 PM   
ArtCatDom


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Status: offline 		It's very simple. You said the United States had not invaded another country in its history without provocation until Iraq. When confronted with examples of this, you changed the marker. You also keep replying with ranting rhetoric about the great BushCo conspiracy, but can't seem to address the questions put to you.

All I am asking is show me how Haiti provoked us into invading them and occupying them for NINETEEN YEARS. Please enlighten us all, since you apparently know so much more than any history book. (By the way, Haiti is particularly relevent to your rants about Iraq. Much of our involvement in Haiti had to do with securing resource, including the brutal suppression of a workers' rebellion.)

*meow*

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RE: Jane Fonda - 5/31/2006 8:36:05 PM   
ArtCatDom


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Status: offline 		On something we can agree on, this article was damn eerily on point:
http://www.alternet.org/story/14087/

*meow*

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RE: Jane Fonda - 5/31/2006 10:16:50 PM   
MsMacComb


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom

It's very simple. You said the United States had not invaded another country in its history without provocation until Iraq. When confronted with examples of this, you changed the marker. You also keep replying with ranting rhetoric about the great BushCo conspiracy, but can't seem to address the questions put to you.

All I am asking is show me how Haiti provoked us into invading them and occupying them for NINETEEN YEARS. Please enlighten us all, since you apparently know so much more than any history book. (By the way, Haiti is particularly relevent to your rants about Iraq. Much of our involvement in Haiti had to do with securing resource, including the brutal suppression of a workers' rebellion.)

*meow*
 

Haiti equals intervention. My point stands. This is old already and I'm bored with it. You know the point I am trying to make as you are reasonably intelligent. You want to get hung up on semantics, become pedantic, anally retentive, and debate fine points forever go find DM. I'm out.  


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RE: Jane Fonda - 5/31/2006 10:24:31 PM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMacComb
What government did we overthrow in Cuba? Put your money where your mouth is. Who was in charge?
I suppose if we sent one lone Green Beret guy into some country 80 years ago you would call that an invasion as well right? Again, apples and oranges.So, answer the question?


Accuracy isn't your strong point, as always.  Roy Boehm wasn't a Green Beret (Army Special Forces) he was a SEAL and it wasn't 80 years ago, it was during the Cuban Missile Crisis in October of 1962. 
 
But to the main point, I think he was talking about the Spanish American War where we invaded and occupied Cuba. 

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RE: Jane Fonda - 6/1/2006 12:12:19 AM   
MsMacComb


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMacComb
What government did we overthrow in Cuba? Put your money where your mouth is. Who was in charge?
I suppose if we sent one lone Green Beret guy into some country 80 years ago you would call that an invasion as well right? Again, apples and oranges.So, answer the question?


Accuracy isn't your strong point, as always.  Roy Boehm wasn't a Green Beret (Army Special Forces) he was a SEAL and it wasn't 80 years ago, it was during the Cuban Missile Crisis in October of 1962. 
 
But to the main point, I think he was talking about the Spanish American War where we invaded and occupied Cuba. 
 

I know nothing about Green Berets and could care less John. My mentioning them and 80 years was simply an example. For all I know Green Berets could have been founded yesterday or 6000 years ago. That is not nor never was my point.
Some people think out of the box. Most don't. Regardless if its a discussion of history, religion, finance, education, civil rights whatever, the majority of Americans repeat from rote memorization the things that have been pounded into their heads, be it true, partially true or totally false. We laugh and mock other nations, religions and cultures as if they are all a bunch of illiterate peons and strut around with an air of superiorty. Let me give a few examples please (and yea I know this is off-topic).
Finance. I regularly hear people bragging about how high their credit scores are. It seems the majority of fellow Americans/sheep are impressed by this. Sadly the are to ignorant to be able to think for themselves and figure out what that means. They act like its a hard earned badge of honor or something, but actually it means they are a fool that borrows a lot of money. Thats really all a credit score is. Its rate or cap goes up based on how much money someone has borrowed and their credit card debt and of course repayment. Rich people don't have nor need a credit score.
Education. Again, people fight to get into "esteemed" colleges, pay a fortune, learn a good deal by way of archaic industrial age thought process, are oh so proud of their over priced "education". Some get out and a few actually even find a job in their field. Most Americans base "doing good" on 6 figures and use that to compare themselves to others. Its all about 6 figures. Chump change to some of us. And I laugh my ass off as people herald from the mountain tops the alphabet soup after their name and their little titles. Hell I've even seen losers post their degrees on their profiles here, lol. 
Politics. Well look, A bunch of morons "elected" (see Diebold and Supreme Court) Bush not only once but twice. Some of these jackasses are still running around babbling about the connection between 9/11 and Iraq. They watch 20 minutes of CNN  (or worse Fox) and read the Sunday headlines and the comics page and consider themselves to be "informed". 
Religion. Whatever. No evidence to support Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc etc but the sheep follow word for word text written a couple thousand years ago like its God's word. Its not. Its made up parables and little missives, thats it.
My point is that many others see the world through the eyes of the propaganda that runs the US machine. I see in many cases what moronic jackasses they are. Being the flock and to blind to see that they are being fleeced. Whats the saying? If the masses knew the truth they would drag their leaders through the streets.
I may discuss a few things in general or a concept. Perhaps it will inspire others to also think outside the box, maybe not. When I get bored I find something else. Some people like to discuss things they find interesting. Others (no shortage of them here and not implying you) seem to come to forums to try to prove how smart they are or to stroke their egos. Which is about the most shallow and pathetic thing I can imagine. Anyway,,,,
P.S. When Spain pulled out their virtually was no government to speak of. As I mentioned to whatever his name is to some their is police action/peacekeeping missions etc for multiple reasons. Thats not the same as overthrowing govts. and invasion per a religious doctrine and to promote "democracy" via Bush and PFNAC. Yea yea, potato, "potaaato" etc.
To the anal ( again not you) my comment about "American presidents" could be wrong as there may well have been a "South American President" who did whatever. And yes prior to "America" being known as we know it, maybe "Oog and Gluck" (cavemen) got into a fight and one jumped the bering Strait right as it was breaking apart. I suppose that could be an "invasion and occupation" as well but I prefer to leave that type of asinine debating to,,, well you know who. Have a "delightful" evening, lol.  (Ah I kill myself sometimes).
P.S., If anyone doesnt like my off topic rant don't read it, (oops, to late, lol).

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