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RE: inferior? - 3/27/2017 8:46:45 PM   
NoirMetal


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I can only speak through the lens of my own experience Vince.

CDs with the forced humiliation fantasy are actually playing out a bit of physcho drama about guilt that society attaches to their fetish. If they are "forced' to do it,then they are not to blame.

Lots of submissives on both sides of the gender slash have these sorts of scenarios in mind, with "taboos."

I tend to be more of a Dominant who plays with the mental side, than a service top. I find most masochists to be rather boring endorphin junkies. You work them hard enough to get the endorphin fix,they float off and leave you with a sore arm. Not much left for me but the blanket and wait thing then-read a book or something.

But if I can get someone involved in a real struggle-especially against their own hang ups-that's fun.

But you know vince,you cannot be fragile and go there. If you are broken,you will only come out in smaller pieces.

That was the gist of this topic.

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RE: inferior? - 3/27/2017 8:54:11 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

If they are "forced' to do it,then they are not to blame.

I agree completely. I used to pretend to myself that i did not like the pain, but that i liked doing it for him. That was so I could avoid admitting to myself that I was a masochist, and the blame could be transferred to him. A sort of "I'm not a masochist but he's a sadist so i let him do it" thing.
In fact it was more the other way round, and I am much more of a masochist than he is a sadist.

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RE: inferior? - 3/27/2017 9:03:52 PM   
NoirMetal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

If they are "forced' to do it,then they are not to blame.

I agree completely. I used to pretend to myself that i did not like the pain, but that i liked doing it for him. That was so I could avoid admitting to myself that I was a masochist, and the blame could be transferred to him. A sort of "I'm not a masochist but he's a sadist so i let him do it" thing.
In fact it was more the other way round, and I am much more of a masochist than he is a sadist.

"In bondage,freedom"

Doms are such enablers.

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RE: inferior? - 3/27/2017 10:41:54 PM   
seekingreality


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NoirMetal

So tell me why a Top would want a person who described themselves this way?

Is it a staid stereotype-or don't they know Tops realize a wounded bird is a sucking black hole you will never find the bottom of?

Or is it just code for seeking a pro?



It's a waste of time to get worked up over a single word. Evaluate people by the totality of how they present themselves.

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RE: inferior? - 3/28/2017 6:11:07 AM   
NoirMetal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingreality


quote:

ORIGINAL: NoirMetal

So tell me why a Top would want a person who described themselves this way?

Is it a staid stereotype-or don't they know Tops realize a wounded bird is a sucking black hole you will never find the bottom of?

Or is it just code for seeking a pro?



It's a waste of time to get worked up over a single word. Evaluate people by the totality of how they present themselves.

ok,you come across as a buzzkill. Is it a fetish?

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RE: inferior? - 3/28/2017 6:52:17 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingreality


quote:

ORIGINAL: NoirMetal

So tell me why a Top would want a person who described themselves this way?

Is it a staid stereotype-or don't they know Tops realize a wounded bird is a sucking black hole you will never find the bottom of?

Or is it just code for seeking a pro?



It's a waste of time to get worked up over a single word. Evaluate people by the totality of how they present themselves.

No, not at all a waste of time. Discussing the whys and wherefores of human behavior is extremely fascinating to me on both a personal level and on an academic level. In other words the life not examined is not worth the scribbles on the public toilet stall wall.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: inferior? - 3/28/2017 6:57:15 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

If they are "forced' to do it,then they are not to blame.

I agree completely. I used to pretend to myself that i did not like the pain, but that i liked doing it for him. That was so I could avoid admitting to myself that I was a masochist, and the blame could be transferred to him. A sort of "I'm not a masochist but he's a sadist so i let him do it" thing.
In fact it was more the other way round, and I am much more of a masochist than he is a sadist.

Your rationalizing a behavior that is so far from the "norm" it is held to be contemptible should not be surprising, DC. We all depend upon defense mechanisms now and again.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: inferior? - 3/28/2017 7:06:01 AM   
NoirMetal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

If they are "forced' to do it,then they are not to blame.

I agree completely. I used to pretend to myself that i did not like the pain, but that i liked doing it for him. That was so I could avoid admitting to myself that I was a masochist, and the blame could be transferred to him. A sort of "I'm not a masochist but he's a sadist so i let him do it" thing.
In fact it was more the other way round, and I am much more of a masochist than he is a sadist.

Your rationalizing a behavior that is so far from the "norm" it is held to be contemptible should not be surprising, DC. We all depend upon defense mechanisms now and again.

There are many different spectrums of the bell curve even in BDSM vince. I sometimes think of mainstream sex and bondage kink as "the puritan perverts". They may have ten different partners and think themselves so "evolved" by having a stable and not killing anyone-but present a fetish under their noses and they flip out. It's actually pretty funny in it's overt hypocrisy.

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RE: inferior? - 3/28/2017 7:30:06 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

CDs with the forced humiliation fantasy are actually playing out a bit of physcho drama about guilt that society attaches to their fetish. If they are "forced' to do it,then they are not to blame.

That may be true in some cases, Noir, but that doesn't get to the root cause of their drama, only a rationalization for why they do what they do. It would seem counter intuitive to believe that while they are having their guilt relieved they are at the same moment experiencing intense erotic pleasure. You might argue that the lifting of the burden of guilt allows them to feel the full force of their pleasure but that does not explain the origins of the paraphilia. How did inferiority induced orgasm substitute for genital orgasm? And how is it in some/many cases the paraphilia becomes a compulsion?

Poking around in the professional literature is not very rewarding because there is such an array of possible answers and not much valid cause and effect. It is all quite speculative. That is why I caution against easy answers in this thread.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: inferior? - 3/28/2017 7:35:15 AM   
NoirMetal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

CDs with the forced humiliation fantasy are actually playing out a bit of physcho drama about guilt that society attaches to their fetish. If they are "forced' to do it,then they are not to blame.

That may be true in some cases, Noir, but that doesn't get to the root cause of their drama, only a rationalization for why they do what they do. It would seem counter intuitive to believe that while they are having their guilt relieved they are at the same moment experiencing intense erotic pleasure. You might argue that the lifting of the burden of guilt allows them to feel the full force of their pleasure but that does not explain the origins of the paraphilia. How did inferiority induced orgasm substitute for genital orgasm? And how is it in some/many cases the paraphilia becomes a compulsion?

Poking around in the professional literature is not very rewarding because there is such an array of possible answers and not much valid cause and effect. It is all quite speculative. That is why I caution against easy answers in this thread.

Paraphilias often result form a traumatic incident in childhood. Others are from chance visualizations. I do know what you mean. Empirical evidence can only be gathered from individual expressions.

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RE: inferior? - 3/28/2017 7:59:08 AM   
WickedsDesire


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hell even Ive had a dress on once and I was simply stunning and shimmering in sliver dress and those legs of mine, with a huge steamboat, neutron star stiff even.

And there was the sparkly red boot competition from 12 years ago at my then bints house and whom they should fit - we all tried them on to a man and women...the zip got just past my ankles...and some skeleton from north of me won them forevermore.

i have totally forgot what the first two pages of this thread were about and who said what..even myself. But let us not dwell in the past.

ah CDs, TVs, panty sniffers, wearer of their wifey clothing - perhaps they are simply disturbed, or in need of a fine cocktail of drugs and a double lobotomy with a potato masher. Not seen a convincing one - well two and I am older than time itself

Didnt Kirk wear a corset anyway (look this is how my mind works)

How to kiss a woman by Captain Kirk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VuIShM5kAQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSHCNTELFI8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSHCNTELFI8


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RE: inferior? - 3/28/2017 12:13:05 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NoirMetal


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

CDs with the forced humiliation fantasy are actually playing out a bit of physcho drama about guilt that society attaches to their fetish. If they are "forced' to do it,then they are not to blame.

That may be true in some cases, Noir, but that doesn't get to the root cause of their drama, only a rationalization for why they do what they do. It would seem counter intuitive to believe that while they are having their guilt relieved they are at the same moment experiencing intense erotic pleasure. You might argue that the lifting of the burden of guilt allows them to feel the full force of their pleasure but that does not explain the origins of the paraphilia. How did inferiority induced orgasm substitute for genital orgasm? And how is it in some/many cases the paraphilia becomes a compulsion?

Poking around in the professional literature is not very rewarding because there is such an array of possible answers and not much valid cause and effect. It is all quite speculative. That is why I caution against easy answers in this thread.

Paraphilias often result form a traumatic incident in childhood. Others are from chance visualizations. I do know what you mean. Empirical evidence can only be gathered from individual expressions.

There once was a myth that gay male behavior resulted from a household in which the mother was overbearing and the father was emotionally absent. Not so many believe that anymore. For your interest I have linked here to a history of the medical and popular views about gay men and women. It depends a lot on how the empirical evidence is collected.

Early studies were flawed because the men were identified before they were questioned or tested, which fed the biases of the investigators. To make a long story short homosexuality as a pathology was removed in 1986 from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM 3)

Sexual masochist disorder is considered an interest, not a pathology in DSM 5 if the patient is not experiencing anxiety, guilt, shame or other negative feelings related to masochistic sexual desires Not everyone is upset by his humiliation fantasies.

To your point, however, one study of men who visited Pro-Dommes reported that clients experience a psychological revitalization through shame, develop control over past trauma, and find alternatives to sexual repression (Lindemann, 2011). Again, however, we are looking at a self-selecting group of men.

Distress related to masochistic behavior, such as anxiety, guilt or shame is a diagnostic criterion for sexual masochistic disorder. Although it is estimated that 16% of men consult a therapist to discuss sexual masochistic behavior or fantasy, only about 6% wishes to stop.

[SNIP]

Besides distress, there is no clinical measure to differentiate pathological masochistic fantasy from non-pathological masochistic fantasy (Shindel and Moser, 2011). Because of stigma, many members of the BDSM community handle their sexual masochistic fantasies with concealment and secrecy. This often means that those who are troubled by any aspect of their behavior are less likely to seek help (Stiles and Clark, 2011).

It may also mean that there is a cohort of men who are not at all distressed by their desires. Again, I urge caution on generalizing any diagnosis or any speculation about the genesis of the behavior.

I suspect that blaming the parents for complex behavior in the child is much too simple a path.

Regards . . . .



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RE: inferior? - 3/28/2017 12:16:13 PM   
Gunshow


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While armchair psychologizing is difficult and fraught with peril, some humans can gain legitimate insight as to the inner workings of certain others. The problem is that none of this generalizes (in a satisfying way) beyond anecdote.

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RE: inferior? - 3/28/2017 12:18:10 PM   
vincentML


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Yup, very much agreed.

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: inferior? - 3/28/2017 12:20:18 PM   
Gunshow


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I am fond of Kling's Iron Law of Social Science: Sometimes it's this way, and sometimes it's that way

Also Jim Manzi's notion of causal density, which quickly goes critical and inextricable.

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RE: inferior? - 3/28/2017 12:29:36 PM   
NoirMetal


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I've never doubted that sexual orientation is a matter of normal mammalian behaviors. Patriarchal cultures wanted more slaves.

And yes,I can see how a pro could help someone with repression issues.

I still find paraphernalia triggers to be a very interesting subject. Especially when an individual is so charmingly uninhibited with their expression.

I just find an amount of tragedy, in that even in bdsm culture-we still censor those who are different.

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RE: inferior? - 3/28/2017 4:58:10 PM   
vincentML


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@Gunshow
@NoirMetal

Great fun poking around in the embers of whydowedowhatitisthatwedo.

There must be a word for tragic irony; can't think of what it might be right now.

Thanks for the discourse.



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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: inferior? - 3/30/2017 12:41:32 AM   
Nelee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Porn. Porn shows male subs doing this lowly worm schtick. As to why, it shows a certain amount of misogyny. After all, they have to be inferior to submit to a woman, because they believe normally women are inferior.
Same thing with dudes who say they want to be a cd and humiliated for it. If they didn't believe women were lesser, they wouldn't feel that looking like one was humiliating.

And the forced bi stuff, homophobia.

Then they get pissy when no woman wants them, after they're clear how they look down on women.

This this this!

It's pretty disgusting, but there it is!

Granted, I know a few CDs (who aren't the sissy types) who do not see feminization as a form of humiliation, but rather empowering that they're allowed to explore those specific interests. But a vast majority do see it as humiliation simply because they associate that with femininity, and womanhood in general.

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RE: inferior? - 3/30/2017 10:37:48 AM   
Gunshow


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Nelee,

Have you considered that the humiliation felt from feminization may be an extreme form of emasculation? Is it possible that it's more about identity perversion rather than patriarchy?

Consider a man who does not identify as a clown. If he is dominated into wearing a clown suit and dancing in public (or private), he is likely to feel humiliated. Now, because of the way (some) humans are wired and the society they matured within, a female suit on a traditional male can be the most clowny clown suit that ever clowned. This has to do with social identity, gender constructs, and a hardwired obsession with femininity.

If you agree that forcing a non-clown to wear a clown suit and act clowny could be humiliating, imagine charging that scenario with sexual and gender and societal undertones. One can feel humiliated by the identity perversion without looking down on clowns.

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RE: inferior? - 3/30/2017 10:53:57 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunshow

Nelee,

Have you considered that the humiliation felt from feminization may be an extreme form of emasculation? Is it possible that it's more about identity perversion rather than patriarchy?

Consider a man who does not identify as a clown. If he is dominated into wearing a clown suit and dancing in public (or private), he is likely to feel humiliated. Now, because of the way (some) humans are wired and the society they matured within, a female suit on a traditional male can be the most clowny clown suit that ever clowned. This has to do with social identity, gender constructs, and a hardwired obsession with femininity.

If you agree that forcing a non-clown to wear a clown suit and act clowny could be humiliating, imagine charging that scenario with sexual and gender and societal undertones. One can feel humiliated by the identity perversion without looking down on clowns.

A fair point, but isn't the issue that playing that role (feminisation, not clowns) emasculating and humiliating because of the roleplayer's perceived social role? It wouldn't really have the same frisson if taken out of context, would it?

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