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RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/15/2004 1:38:34 PM   
LordSeussMD


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Okay, I have to agree with those out there that pointed out that "Olde Guard" has nothing to do with the Gorean Lifestyle. Yes, the term refers to older style training and lifestyle behavior and the Olde Guard is similar to Gorean style strictness but that is because both became fairly active at the same time. There is Olde Guard, and there is Olde Guard Gorean, two very different things. Both refer to a timeperiod when Open BDSM was in it's infancy as a subcultural choice. Olde Guard was mainly those of the Gay/Leather Fetishest, while Olde Guard Gorean is simply a differentialization from the newer, "Lighter" side of Gor that is heavily practiced now a days(this doesn't count strictly ROLEPLAY Goreans of course, who by definition aren't part of lifestyle discussion)

The main similarity between Olde Guard and Gorean(Olde Guard or New) is that both refer to a Total Power Exchange structure that focuses on Protocols, Training, and a strict adherrance to what is agreed to when starting said relationship. Olde Guard, the term itself, is an honorariam to the way things used to be, a lamentation that the world is getting soft and light, it is a focus on the "good olde days"

I hope I've helped. Feel free to ask anything else, I don't get over to the Message Boards that often, but when I do, I like to check things out and I'm always available for questions.

Seuss

(in reply to Samos)
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RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/15/2004 2:13:24 PM   
Erusvi


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From: Los Angeles
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"Old Guard"

"Gorean"

Labels. Why?

To my mind, the idea is that you incorporate things into your life, without defining what you are by the things you've incorporated.

Consider... you may have chosen Gorean rituals, terminologies, precepts, and practices as the blueprint for your D/s lifestyle. Yet, are you restricted in what you choose by what Norman wrote in his texts? Of course not. Would your honor be any less had you never read a single word of them? Of course not. Would your slave be any less a slave if she didn't know anything about 'blackwine' or 'paga'? Of course not.

Where it gets ugly, in my view, is that there are volumes of posts on the internet about "what is Gorean and what is not". Don't get me wrong.. there's nothing at all wrong with adopting the Gorean title.. or the Old Guard title.. or whatever title feels best. The danger comes in *defining* yourself by that title. In doing so, you limit yourself. In doing so, you put yourself out for public approval (or disapproval) of everything you do, according to -their- definition of the term. In doing so, you may find yourself doing something purely to justify the title. And that's no reason to do anything. You should do things because, ultimately, they fulfill you. Any other reason leads to folly and, perhaps, far worse.

There are a number of Gorean practices that I've adopted. I've learned a great deal from reading Norman's books. He had some very insightful and pragmatic practices in his writings.

I've incorporated some of those into my life... but I've not defined myself by them.

Something to ponder...

_____________________________

Schno
ErusVI
Los Angeles
Owner of dahanala
www.esenem.net
[image]http://www.esenem.net/Gallery/albums/2005_08_Savage/SM_1.thumb.jpg[/image]

(in reply to LordSeussMD)
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RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/15/2004 3:08:09 PM   
SherriA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Samos

As sherria has said there are several sites with information about this regimen of training and ownership, which is quite true.




Actually, for the sake of accuracy, the bulk of my research hasn't been via websites. Anyone can put up a website that says anything they want, with no requirement for it to be factual. I've done my research by talking to people across the US and Canada - people who were around back then, people who claim to be "old guard". I've heard/read opinions from folks in the post WWII gay leather community, which is purportedly the origin of the term, and most of them will tell you the same thing I've said - that is, there WAS no accepted structure across the board.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Samos
However, the reality is that there is an "Old Guard" training regimen. Which is contrary to her research.



Again, I'd be happy to see evidence of this. Please do share it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Samos
The Master will derive pleasure from "using" the slave sexually, to inflicting torture, humiliation, and degradation of the slave. The slave derives pleasure from satisfying the needs of the Master.



So, does that mean that everyone is a switch then? Because most people that claim "old guard" backgrounds say that you had to start out as a slave. Yet, when you talk to those same people, they'll generally tell you that they're strictly "dominant" or a "master" or a "top" and don't derive any pleasure from the complimentary role. So how do you mesh these two apparently conflicting sets of circumstances?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Samos
Just as in the vanilla world, the BDSM community has become hung up on labels and such. One can be a submissive but is insulted if they are referred to as slave. Just as the label of whether one is "Old Guard," or Gorean. To some these regimens and experience are very meaningful and exciting, while to others it is terrifying! My point is that each couple has to communicate their respective needs, dreams, fantasies and desires. Then together they (should) begin that journey to build a relationship that will be rewarding, and fulfilling to each of them.



From my perspective, the term simply impedes communication, which makes it a liability rather than an asset. Since no one can seem to agree on just who or what the "old guard" and their protocols were/are (look at the varied opinions just in this short thread), it makes it difficult to have any sort of rational conversation using the term. Just as someone from Florida might think 40F is cold, someone from northern Manitoba wouldn't generally use the term "cold" to describe that temperature. Suddenly, you have people trying to talk and not actually communicating anything meaningful because they're not using words in the same way.

Unless you know how the other person is using the term, and can agree on definitions, it really serves no useful function, other than an attempt to bolster someone's status (likely in their own mind more than anyone else's).

-- Sherri

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to Samos)
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RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/15/2004 3:25:38 PM   
Sylverdaun


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I hestitate to respond to this.. but I must disagree.. While there are no standardized *forms or rituals* that mark you as someone who is Old guard or Old guard trained.. I do believe that if you were to ask Vi Johnson that Old guard is simply those who have come before.. just as today those amoung the leather community are the New Guard.. and those who come after are the Future. This terminology is an umbrella that casts its shroud around those of our community who respect the past, the belief in the importance of community, place, role and ritual. Does it mean that you kneel only this way.. or speak only in thrid speech. No what it means is that as a member of the leather community you respect your elders, there belief systems and wish to continue down a similar path. Those interested in leather history should join the leather history yahoo group, suppor the leather archives.. speak to people like Guy Baldwin, Joseph Bean, Master Jim from Dallas.

Resource the elder statespeople of your community like Viola Johnson and those of her elk. Be taught by those both Dom and sub who have come before. To me a relative newcomer in leather I appreciate and respect the work done by my mentors.

http://www.leatherarchives.org/index.htm

http://www.io.com/~ambrosio/manners/oldguard.html

http://www.iron-rose.com/vijohnson/

(in reply to shai^tana)
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RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/15/2004 4:01:01 PM   
SherriA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdaun

Those interested in leather history should join the leather history yahoo group, suppor the leather archives.. speak to people like Guy Baldwin, Joseph Bean, Master Jim from Dallas.


I belong to the leather history group, have for some time. It's a wonderful resource. Interesting that we come away from it with such different perspectives though.

And as for speaking to people like Guy Baldwin, Joseph Bean, etc, do you mean when they say things like:

"The truth is that the Old Guard as is it conceived and spoken of today is mostly myth. Some of the forms are genuine and have history, but they never had the kind of universal acceptance and weight they are given in "memory." (from Joseph Bean's essay "Old Guard? If You Say So")

I still contend that when people refer to The Old Guard as a unified, codified set of rituals and protocols that were accepted across the board, by all the different, isolated, underground groups of that era, they're letting their fantasies run away with them. Is it a neat idea? Sure. But the reality is that it simply didn't work that way, and if you think about the logistics of it, it likely never could have.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdaun
Resource the elder statespeople of your community like Viola Johnson and those of her elk. Be taught by those both Dom and sub who have come before. To me a relative newcomer in leather I appreciate and respect the work done by my mentors


Decrying the myth doesn't at all lessen my appreciation and respect for those who came before me.


-- Sherri

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to Sylverdaun)
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RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/15/2004 5:03:09 PM   
Biggun5621


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According to my research, which includes discussions with people who were in the lifestyle during the period 1939 - present, the term "Old Guard" refers to those who maintain strict discipline, establish protocols for their own group, and are willing to follow these simple rules when interacting with others in the scene:
1. A submissive (or slave) is under the guidance of her Dominant. If she gives offense, the matter is brought to her Dominant, who will then either a. carry out punishment immediately, or b. allow the offended party to carry out a punishment of which he approves immediately, or c. places the submissive at the service of the offended party for an agreed upon time period.
2. A submissive (or slave) is under the protection of her Dominant. If another is attracted to her, he may speak to her Master about an arrangement, but he may not conclude an arrangement with her alone.
3. An offense to a submissive is an offense to her Master, and is not condoned (this was basically placed to maintain respect and good manners among groups).
4. The submissive girl is a valued commodity to all members of the group. If a Dominant oversteps reason in his treatment of a sub, she has only to beg protection from the group. It then becomes the DUTY of all other Dominants present to intervene to prevent real injury to the sub.

There are a few more rules, but they are all basically flexible, and designed to lend an air of style to group proceedings, maintain decorum in an organization, and to ensure that all the members of a group, both Dominant and submissive, are treated with dignity and humanity. While this may not seem very important, one has only to look at how people often act when they have had too much to drink, or let their emotions get out of control in a group setting, etc., etc., etc..... The whole idea behind "Old Guard" seeks out a level of grace and style that allows people who are just beginning in the lifestyle to feel comfortable visiting a group for the first time. They would know that they would be treated as guests, and would be given an opportunity to learn about the group without debt or a requirement to participate that might get them in over their heads. It seem pretty passe' now, but remember the time period that gave birth to this style of play...it was a violent world, and many, many people had been desensitized to death and injury. In the late '30's, people from Paris, London, New York, etc. might be travelling to places in the Reich, and vice versa. Everyone was aware that there was every threat of war, and that they might soon be plunged into conflict. The practices of each city were different, and no one would have any way of knowing what limits were set. Thus the "Old Guard" rules set a standard that ensured politics, business, personal relationships, and religion would never encroach on the group or provide a spur to violence that was not a part of the scene. After exhaustive research on this, I have come across a quote that sums it up pretty well: "The nature of our interests has always bordered on the violent and frightening for those who do not understand it. The Old Guard rules were a way of acting that ensured no matter who was involved, princes or paupers, kings or criminals, all would be treated with dignity and grace when the group was assembled."

(in reply to LordSeussMD)
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RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/15/2004 6:23:49 PM   
MizSuz


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I wish I could remember where I read or heard the statement (paraphrased here) "If there ever was an Old Guard then the very tenets of such would preclude any of its members from ever being willing to claim the title."

I have had one who professed to be "Old Guard trained" serve me. He came with references of a then established and respected house in the south. He was, without a doubt, one of the worst submissives I have ever encountered - slavery was a universe away (although he claimed to be only a slave). Altogether too full of himself and his own interests to suit my tastes. I considered our parting as amiable acquaintances a real accomplishment as the entire interaction was certainly a test of my patience.

I've done my own share of research, but not nearly as much as Sherri has (she's my roommate so I tend have the inside line on Sherri). I do not profess to have the answer to the original question in this thread. My experience, however, tends to lean to the notion that "Old Guard" is essentially what began as a term of endearment to loosely mean "those that came before" and, as is the way with people who are quick to turn something into a mindless mantra and then allow their glands to keep them in a whipped up frenzy of self-rightous indignation simply for the pleasure of the trip, eventually became an over-touted myth - often used to laud ones own definitions of "true" or "real" over another who may not agree (kind of like what's happened with the acronym SSC - another mindless mantra whose original meaning and intent is long lost in political correctness).

But, if it makes you "FEEL" good to believe it...by all means do. That is why we're here, yes?

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to LordSeussMD)
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RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/15/2004 6:48:31 PM   
Sylverdawn


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Yes.. I do mean that.. exactly.. I think that the key is "as it is conceived and spoken of today.." this is why I hestiate to respond because I dont want to get into an protracted debate on symantics and points of view...Here Joseph Bean is asking you to educate yourself so that you can determine the difference btwn fact and fiction.

quote:

The truth is that the Old Guard as is it conceived and spoken of today is mostly myth. Some of the forms are genuine and have history, but they never had the kind of universal acceptance and weight they are given in "memory." (from Joseph Bean's essay "Old Guard? If You Say So")


I couldnt agree with you more Sherri about a unified condified written in blood on treated leather set of rules .. but there were and remain.. general forms and belief systems that one can in general call Old Guard.. the name you seem to have such a hard time with could be given anything.. call it Master/slave.. Protocal driven D/s... Leather Lifestyle... what have you.. The basic facts are that it orginated in the leather gay community and it is to those men and women, who are respected for their contribution to their communities and to the development of what we practice today, that we owe a debt. To call them and what they did and do Old Guard is a sign of respect, honor and to acknowledge their place in our community as leaders and mentors.

Feel free to contact my husband's slave... Her lifestyle training, beliefs and stringent adherance to protocal mark her as a follower of Old leather/Guard traditions. She has often been refered to as having Old Guard slave mentality. She would happily discuss with anyone interested [email protected]

< Message edited by Sylverdawn -- 1/15/2004 6:49:56 PM >


_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

(in reply to LordSeussMD)
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RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/15/2004 7:06:58 PM   
SherriA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn


To call them and what they did and do Old Guard is a sign of respect, honor and to acknowledge their place in our community as leaders and mentors.



I can see your reasoning here...

The way *I* see the term "old guard" used these days doesn't seem to show much respect or bring much honour to the people from that era, and that's part of the reason I try to debunk the myth when I see it come up. I think we're probably trying to achieve the same thing; we just have different ways of going about it. Nothing wrong with that.


-- Sherri

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to Sylverdawn)
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RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/16/2004 8:46:40 AM   
Samos


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With all that has been said about the use of the term "Old Guard" it is now to the point of proverbally "beating a dead horse." The reality is that what two people choose to do within their relationship goes beyond labels. That's after all what this discussion is really about, isn't it?

The rules, the protocols, torture regimens, discipline and punishments, are what the Master and slave, are most happy with. Perhaps, if we as lifestyle people leave the labels alone except for the purpose of providing some indication to a prospective Master or slave as to the interests, preferences and experiences of the individual, we will all be better off.

(in reply to SherriA)
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RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/16/2004 12:06:39 PM   
Voltare


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Samos,

with respect I dont' see a dead horse being beaten - just an exchange of thoughts and opinions.

Erusvi,

Right on. Labels are really only of value, when they mean the same thing to the person applying, and the person reading it. If I lable a jar full of white powdery stuff 'sugar' and you use two cups of the stuff to make a batch of cookies...only to gag and choke at the two cups of salt that was actually used, the label is not just meaningless, it's misleading. I never trust the label. I take a finger taste of the stuff in the jars, just to make sure someone didn't label it wrong.

Stephan

(in reply to Samos)
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RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/16/2004 8:17:05 PM   
shai^tana


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A girl would thank all of those who responded to her original inquiry that launched this topic. It has certainly provided a very lively discussion, with the input of opinion, references to the research of others, and although perhaps inconclusive, has nonetheless been a wonderful exchange.

This girl is honoured so many learned ones have chosen to help educate her and each other.
shai^tana

(in reply to Voltare)
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RE: The term "Old guard" - 1/18/2004 9:06:53 PM   
DaddyGrey


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The concept of Old Guard (if you want to call it that. We never did), as I learned it, was never a thing set in stone with all encompassing, over the board rituals or protocols which everyone followed. Each House, club, group or Family had their own structures and these differed greatly from region to region as well.

I had the good fortune to be allowed to observe, pick the brains of, learn from and hang out with some very experienced folks who were, or had learned from, what would nowdays be called Old Guard. What I learned were the structures and favored protocols of THOSE folks, THOSE clubs or Houses, not of all. Some things do seem to be more or less in common, or at least fairly so, such as having one's slave or bottom walk slightly behind and to the left. Others seem to vary a LOT, such as the concept that a person must bottom first. My mentor had not, having been trained as a Top from the start, as did I. One DOES need to be able to learn and to have a certain deference to the teacher, but this does not constitute bottoming to them as is commonly claimed must be done. Some of the structures set up a clear order of precedence based on how long one had been in the scene and a senior bottom definately outranked a junior Top. Some of the best teachers I encountered were senior bottoms and let me tell you, they really knew their stuff!

I like to say I am Old Guard oriented as so much of what I saw and learned held much greater resonance for me than other visible forms, such as Gor or similar. What I learned had a distincly military flavor and having been a military brat and grown up on bases it rang true and comfortably familiar for me. I've added some structures to my own prefered protocols from feudal European flavors as I find them pleasing.

What I think folks are looking for when the are drawn to "Old Guard" is a sense of history and a desire to feel a part of something ongoing rather than only of today. I find no fault in this. But to claim that there was a commonly recognized, all encompassing set of rituals and protocols that everyone followed in the same way is in error.

In Leather,
Daddy Grey

_____________________________

Safe, Sane, Consensual....
Two out of three is not bad,
One will do in a pinch.

(in reply to shai^tana)
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RE: The term "Old guard" - 2/2/2004 2:39:33 PM   
MistressDREAD


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reads thru interest this threat and observes many with self professed * blinders on I feel it time for My OPINION~

RE: The term "Old guard"

humor Me and read ALL of the content.....


Who were the Huscarls?
A small section of the Huscarls taunt the opposing side, this time without their axes. It's surprising how much they look like Normans. In fact, they could be Normans...
The first problem in dealing with the subject of Huscarls is to decide whether you are looking at the traditional meaning of the word in Old Norse, or whether you are talking about the English military term Old Guard.

In Old Norse the term Huscarl is just a word meaning a household servant - house-karl a slave- and could be applied to anyone who served a lord in his household. In Old English it has a meaning nearer to the later medieval idea of 'Household Troops', the highly trained soldier who served a particular lord and his family or household. Certainly by the later eleventh century, the Norse usage of the word was similar to that of the English, although earlier on it had had a more general meaning. For the purposes of this article we will be looking at the English Huscarls all tho there are many instances of Old Guard addressed in prefex that can rival todays BDSM Societies.

There is little doubt that Huscarls were introduced into England during the reign of Cnut (although there is some evidence for an elite mercenary force during Aethelred's reign whom seemed to not take to woman and kept to them selfs). An institution similar to the Huscarls had existed in Scandinavia for some time, and it is possible that Cnut was trying to 'standardise' that aspect of all his empire. It is also possible that tales of the Varangian Guard in Byzantium inspired the formation of the Huscarls as the King's Old Guard. According to Sveno, Cnut re-organised his army in 1018 and proclaimed that only those 'who bore a two-edged sword with gold inlaid hilt' would be admitted into his chosen guard. It is said that wealthy warriors made such haste to get swords of the right quality that the sound of the sword-smiths' hammers was heard throughout the land. It may be that Cnut was trying to get some Englishmen into his elite guard to aid the unification between Englishmen and Danes and to grab hold of the lower classes. Whatever the reason, it can be seen that this would have given Cnut the chance to get some of the best warriors in the land into his personal guard. How was this guard organised?

Many of the writers earlier this century thought that the Huscarls were organised in a similar way to the Jomsvikings. However, more recent research suggests that the Jomsvikings may never have existed as the disciplined guild of warriors portrayed in the sagas. What is certain, however, is that Huscarls were paid troops with their own rules of justice and discipline, answerable directly to the King (or later some of the more powerful Eorls who had their own Huscarls). Most of the Huscarls lived at the King's court and served him directly. By the time of Edward the Confessor some Huscarls had been given estates by the king, varying in size from half a hide to fifteen hides, with an average being 4 hides, although these were probably the exception rather than the rule.

A Huscarl with his trusty axe
Traditionally, the Huscarls 'contract' to the King was renewed on New Year's Day, and any Huscarl was free to leave the king's service. It is also clear that problems of internal discipline were dealt with by a meeting of the Huscarls. The worst sentence was to be declared 'niðing' (a Norse word meaning cowardly slave or craven) and cast out of the Huscarls. It is possible that Eorl Swein, Harold's brother, had been a Huscarl since when he abducted the abbess of Leominster and killed his cousin Beorn, he was not tried by a Witan and outlawed, the king and the army declared Swein 'niðing', suggesting military, not civil, justice. The exact details of the 'guild laws' for the Huscarls are now not as certain as they were once thought to be, since the principle sources for these laws have been shown to be dubious. However, the existing evidence is strong enough to be sure that the Huscarls did have their own 'guild-laws' by which they lived, based on loyalty to the king and an oath of true loyalty to the other warrior slaves, just as the thegns of Cambridge did in the early eleventh century and the 'peace guild' of London did during Aethelstan's reign.

The royal Huscarls are thought to have numbered about 3000, a vast number of men to pay and, as a consequence, a special tax of one mark of silver from ten hides was levied to pay the Huscarls from the common folk. In addition to their pay in coin (thought to have been paid once per month), they were housed and fed at the king's expense and used in the Kings delight. It is not certain whether the king also paid for their arms and armour, although it is likely they were expected to supply these themselves (arms and armour may have been given as gifts in return for good service too). Obviously, they would equip themselves with the best arms and armour they could, not only because their lives depended on it (literally), but also because the king could dismiss them, removing their livelihood too, if their war gear was not 'up to scratch'. If they were to constitute the core of the army, their war-gear had to be the best available. In addition to his sword, a huscarl would also have been expected to have a horse to carry him to the battle (although he would dismount and fight on foot), a mail-shirt, helmet, shield, spear, and, of course, the 'massive and bloodthirsty two handed axe'.

That Huscarls were valued servants of the king is bourne out by an event in 1041. Two of Harthacnut's huscarls were killed by the citizens of Worcester whilst collecting a particularly unpopular tax. Harthacnut decided to ravage the entire shire by dispatching the forces of five eorls and 'almost all his huscarls' to teach his subjects a lesson in obedience. This also gives us a hint to the fact that a huscarl's duty to the king was not limited to fighting. Like the thegns, the huscarls served the king in peace as well as war. They appear as tax collectors, witnesses to royal charters, recipients of land grants and donors of land. Often the same man is found described in charters as cynges huskarl and minister regis. If the huscarl's duty was purely military he would have been described as milites regis not minister regis. Huscarls could best be described as ministers and attendants upon the king (or eorl) who specialised in, but were not limited to, war. Their obligation to serve in arms arose from the lordship bond rather than the cash inducement. In this way they probably differed from their contemporaries, the lithsmen and butecarles who were purely mercenary troops and seem to have sided with the highest bidder.

What happened to the Huscarls? The huscarls probably formed the spear head of any army right up until the Conquest. After the Conquest the huscarls seem to have completely disappeared. Why was this? Certainly the vast majority died on Senlac ridge, fighting around nad protecting the king, but not all. Most of those that did survive, along with many of King Harold's thegns, and some of the eorl's huscarls seem to have crossed to the continent as mercenary troops that served undercover. Many of these made it as far as Byzantium and became members of the Varangian Guard, so much so that, by the twelfth century, the Varangian Guard was sometimes referred to as 'the English Old Guard'.

Bonaparte, Napoleon, Emperor of France - Farewell to the Old Guard, 1814: I have sacrificed all of my interests to those of the country. I go, but you, my friends, will continue to serve France. Her happiness was my only thought. It will still be the object of my wishes. Do not regret my fate; if I have consented to survive, it is to serve your glory.
After his disastrous invasion of Russia and subsequent defeat by the Allies at Leipzig, Napoleon lost the support of many of his generals. The Allies then forced him to abdicate his throne and sent him to exile on the island of Elba. Before he departed, Napoleon gave one final address to his most loyal and devoted military unit, the Old Guard, many of whom accompanied him into exile

with all this information to give those here today and this is but just a tip of the iceburg of what OLD GUARD is and having an understanding of those whom returned from world war one and two with new values that dident wash with USA society at that time and their mindset to keep their * kinkie ways in tact as well as their strict adhearance to protical, rules and regulations they had learned to follow with their integrity and strenth of servitude and beliefs aquired while over seas the Old Guard concept and quote was established in the USA but has been around for many more years in both Dominance and suplication across time and space thru out the World. Dominace and Leadership has always been exhalted thru tiime by those whom would serve such with out any more thought then to have a life of servitude to those they admire. ~smiles~ Just a Oldies opinion on the Treads Term and life lived thru the eyes of those within My Own Family whom tell the stories of old.......

(in reply to LordSeussMD)
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RE: The term "Old guard" - 2/7/2004 11:57:34 AM   
alyra


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quote:

Gorean Lifestylers (and I mean no disrespect to anyone by that term) do not seem to have the same sense of seriousness about them. Yes, I've seen Kajiras be very dutiful and obediant. However, I've also heard those same slaves keep asking to get used sexually. If sex is a main issue with your service, then IMHO, you are not an "Old Guard" slave. You are simply a slave with a BDSM kink.


Then you haven't read the books. In Slave Girl of Gor, a kajira did that regularly. I would imagine that it is proper enough then for that reason.

Not that I claim to be an expert in the lifestyle, or anything like that. Just someone with an interest. :)


Be well,
-A

(in reply to LanceLake)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: The term "Old guard" - 2/7/2004 10:31:42 PM   
PandoraGrace


Posts: 1
Joined: 2/1/2004
Status: offline
I was brought up/trained "Old Guard", but the "Gay Leather Boys"

I like to quote to you some important information on "Old Guard" and "The Myth"


"The Myth
of the Old Guard

A recent question on one of the newslists had to do with smoking cigarettes at dungeon parties. The writer began her question with a reference to the Old Guard/New Guard dilemma.

Things have changed in fifty years, that's for sure, but I'm not sure that things have changed as much as most "young" Leatherfolk think.

I'll start off by saying that there's a good chance that most of you think that I am "Old Guard." My age and my salt and pepper hair make me look that way and the proliferation of my writing (thank the gods) makes it seem that way.

The truth is that I am a relative late-comer to Leather, having had my first "rough" sex about twenty years ago. Even at that, I'm not sure that I met that many Old Guarders in the early eighties. After all, no one ever walked up to me and said "Hi, I'm a member of the Old Guard."

I know several people now who may be thought of as in the Old Guard, but I bet they don't think of themselves that way. The oral history work I did with the Leather Archives gave me a great opportunity to talk with many men and woman who remember the old days. It is from my experiences and those conversations that I am drawing these reflections.

All that is to say that I don't think of myself as a member of the Old Guard. I do, however, admit to thinking like a member of the Old Guard (whatever that is) when it comes to Leather.

If I'm going to make any point in today's rambling, it's going to be that there never was, and never will be, an Old Guard.

For starters, try and date the time of the Old Guard. Was there an Old Guard in 1949? I doubt it. The rough sex sub-culture was hardly a culture at the time and even though SM had been practiced for millennia, it was hardly noticed by the rest of society and was probably more closely aligned with profession dominatrices than with Gay men.

So shall we date it from 1952? Probably not, as no one is going to say that one movie, "The Wild Ones," created a group called the Old Guard.

So was it the sixties? Maybe. But if there were an Old Guard in the sixties, they were young and new at it and feeling their way through a hell of a lot of issues. Even if they were the men and women who were to become the Old Guard, they certainly weren't the Old Guard then.

By the late seventies Leather was alive and well and filled with newly created traditions and a relatively short history. After all, twenty years in the life of the human race isn't much more than a blink.

Was there an Old Guard then? I doubt it.

And for my doubt I have some very reliable sources. The most reliable is an original copy of Larry Townsend's "The Leatherman's Handbook." First published in 1972, those pages have a memory much better than anyone around to talk about "the good old days."

In this book, there's no mention at all of an Old Guard nor of requirements placed on fellow Leatherfolk by the Old Guard.

A case in point: A recent slave applicant and I had a conversation about "slavese." For those unfamiliar with the term, it is the requirement that a slave always refer to him or herself in the third person, thereby never using the word "I," or any other first person pronoun, for that matter. The result is that you get horribly convoluted sentences such as "Sir, this slave, Sir, requests permission for this slave to use the bathroom, Sir."

Well, there is no way in Hell that such a requirement has anything to do with Old Guard. You can read the Handbook, for instance, all you want and you'll find only few references to slaves and certainly no reference at all to "slavese." You see, a person into Leather in the those days was called an "S" or an "M," which stood for sadist and masochist and had little or nothing to do with dominance or submission.

Even the words top and bottom are rare in the Handbook, as they were rare in the seventies.

Thirty years ago, or even fifty for that matter, the Old Guard wouldn't have had a discussion about cigarette smoke either. Groups may have but the Old Guard wouldn't. The whole notion of smoking being permitted or not, you see, has nothing to do with Leather. That, of course, is the crux of the whole dialogue.

Most of what people want to foist on the topic of Leather has to do with being human, not with being sexual, sadistic, or kinky.

When I was a kid, and here I admit to sounding like my Dad, smokers were considerate of the places where they smoked. They asked their hosts if smoking were permitted. It wasn't a matter of Leather protocol, it was a matter of manners.

It wouldn't have been a matter of using slavese. It would have been a matter of using good grammar. The examples can go on and on.

Do you think, after all, that the "founders" of Leather sat around inventing a hanky code?

Sure someone sat down one day and compiled this long list of colors and meanings, but I bet that by the time that happened, the list was more tongue in cheek than color in the pocket!

Life is never as pre-calculated as "historians" want us to believe. Human culture grows by ebbs and flows, by trial and error, by ideas rejected as well as accepted.

Groups have more or less formality, greater or lesser structure, few or many guidelines. In the long run, life, and hence living groups, are evolutionary, developing style and tradition, manners and mores, by what is seen as necessary, expedient, profitable, or convenient.

That's not to say that one "Master" won't do it one way and another quite differently. One may line up "slave protocols" ad nauseam and the other may quite firmly demand that everything be loose and laid back.

Last week at the Eagle, while the writing of this column was still in its germinal state, I asked Chuck Renslow about the Old Guard.

As our conversation meandered, he reminded me of the terms "S" and "M" and how there were all those difficulties and arguments and human foibles then as there are now. Eventually he reminded me that Leather isn't a lifestyle. "We can only 'do Leather' so many hours a week," he noted, "and then we have the rest of our lives the way everyone else does."

Going to work and doing chores and paying bills, eating and sleeping and studying are all parts of lifestyle.

Most of what Leatherfolk call "Our Lifestyle," after all, has to do with being polite, careful, supportive, with having manners and common sense. There are, certainly, aspects of Leather that differ from other subcultures and those differences are to be cherished, honored, and, most importantly, enjoyed, but when it really comes down to Old and New, Father Alliot's dictum, which I first heard from him in 1966 holds true: "The more things change, the more they stay the same."

So if anyone tells you about the "Old Guard," refer them to Larry's paragraph on page 15 of the original Leatherman's Handbook: "All through this Handbook I will be at great pains to point out that much of what I have to say is opinionÉ Your reaction may be entirely different, and your desires may exceed or fall far short of the action I describe. This is exactly how it should be. No one -- Larry Townsend or anyone else -- can even begin to set the standards for your sexual needs and/or behavior."

That I think is precisely the Old Guard's view of the Old Guard.

Jack Rinella"

_____________________________________________________________

Now for "The Old Guard History,
Origins and Traditions
Copyright by the author, Guy Baldwin M.S.

Although I used that label in a piece I wrote almost three years ago, I only recently realized that there was a strong likelihood that large numbers of leather guys don't quite know for sure what the phrase, 'Old Guard' really means. I'm sure that I have never seen a description of the style (and it is a style), so I want to offer one now. I have carried my own 'Old Guard' card in my wallet right next to my Selective Service Registration card (draft card) for long enough that I probably qualify to offer what follows so, here goes...

First, a bit of historical perspective will be more helpful than you might guess. 'Old Guard' is really a misnomer-a misapplied name-for the earliest set of habits that jelled by the mid to late 1950's in the men's leather community here in the U.S. It is very important to remember that the modern leather scene as we now know it first formalized itself out of the group of men who were soldiers returning home after World War II. (1939-1945).

For many gay men of that era, their World War II military service was their first homo-social experience (first time being thrown together mostly in the company of other men for significant lengths of time), their first time away from their growing up places, and their first experience of male bonding during periods of high stress. War was (and is) serious business; people died, buddies depended on each other for their lives, and the chips were down. Discipline was the order of the day, and the nation believed that only discipline and dedication would win the war and champion freedom: (Ever notice the especially strong patriotic feelings that happen at leather events?)

Anyway, these gay war veterans learned about the value and pleasure of discipline and hard work in the achievement of a noble purpose. They also learned how to play hard when they got the chance for leave time. Indeed, military life during wartime was (and is) a mix of emotional extremes born out of sure knowledge that one could literally be 'here today, and gone tomorrow'. Lastly (for these purposes), the gay vets had the secret knowledge that they fought and served every bit as well as straight soldiers, and this information strengthened their self-esteem. All of these things came to be associated with the disciplined, military way of life as it existed during the wartime years.

Although not all gay men of that time served in the military, those who didn't were exposed to the military attitudes through their contact with the vast numbers of military men who were everywhere to be seen and cruised both during and immediately after the war years. In any case, all these things greatly influenced the shape of masculine gay sexualities.

Upon their return to the States about 1946, many of the gay vets wanted to retain the most satisfying elements of their military experience and, at the same time, hang out socially and sexually with other masculine gay men. They found that only in the swashbuckling motorcycle culture did such opportunities exist and so the gay bike clubs were born. It was here that they found the combination of easy camaraderie, the stress and thrill of real risk taking (the riding), and the masculine sexuality that they had known during their military days.

Since one can tell who is and is not in the military only when uniforms are worn, these gay men unconsciously (in most cases) transferred their loyalties to their own uniform-the leather gear of bike riders with a few paramilitary touches thrown in. Club insignia often recalled hose insignia of special military units: Thunderbolts, Warriors, Blue Max, and Iron Cross to name only a few. Club members would exchange their insignia with members of other clubs in friendship; christening rituals were transferred from tanks, ships and airplanes to motorcycles and piss was substituted for champagne; the military dress uniform hats became the leather bike caps-all these elements were just as had been during military service.

Incidentally, during the war, the soldiers would often put on skits for their own amusement. Since women were not allowed at the front, some of the men would play the parts of women by doing a kind of mock dress-up (as in one scene from 'South Pacific'). Later, this tradition would be expressed in 'drag' shows during bike runs. So, masculine men pretended to be pretending to be women-not truly 'drag' at all. (It still happens in a few places.)

In any case, being in the military also meant following lots of rules. And just as in the military, there were (unspoken) rules about what you did and did not wear, how you handled your personal affairs, who you could and could not socialize with and more. All this was overlaid with a kind of ritual formalism just as in the military. Those men who were really into dominance and submission, SM, or leather sex tended to take these rules rather more seriously than those guys who simply thought of themselves as butch. The butch ones wore just enough leather to be practical when riding, and those into the exotic sexualities tended to wear more gear than necessary to signal this fact about themselves, but they all hung out together in the same settings. As you might guess, in some cases, any particular person might be into both riding and the exotic sexualities.

Just as an aside here, before and during the war, kinky folks seeking to identify each other would sometimes defensively ask, 'Do you play the mandolin or the saxophone?' to discover which of them was the masochist or the sadist by the first letter of these instruments. All this while wearing street clothes! The creation of a butch subculture by the gay vets began to allow people to specialize their sexual interests in a way that had been impossible earlier. Prior to this development. it was not apparent that there were very many ways to be gay.

The bike clubs and the bars where they hung out became the magnets of their day which attracted those gay men who were interested in the masculine end of the gay spectrum, but it was the leather men who defined the masculine extreme at that time. (Nowadays, we know there are many ways to be masculine.) This meant that those who had an inclination to kinky action pretty much felt compelled to explore kink in the context of the leather SM scene since it was the only game in town. If motorcycle riding or black leather itself was not 'your thing', that meant one felt obligated to visit the hang outs and look and act the part as much as possible to find one's way into the inner circle of those who looked like they knew something about the exotic sexualities. This meant finding out what the rules of inclusion were (how can I be included?) in order to gain access. To some extent, all this is still true because the attitude still prevails that the 'uniform' indicates experience and social access to the Knowledgeable People.

And so, the Scene became EX- clusive rather than IN-clusive, meaning that the people in the Scene understood the rules and tried to keep outsiders out-to exclude them. An outsider became defined as anyone (butch or not) who did not have a primary interest in and experience with the exotic sexualities or at least an interest in motorcycles. (This excluding attitude was probably also reinforced by guilt about being kinky.)

I know that this combination of kinky men mixed in with motorcycle riders may sound a bit odd now, but that's how the Scene worked and, to some slight extent, still does. All through the 80's, with the emergence of kinky organizations and specifically leather/SM events, the motorcycle riding community and the kinky leather community have grown apart such that now those in one group are pretty much ignorant of or indifferent to the events happening in the other.

This growing separation is more true in larger cities which have the numbers of people that are necessary to support each of these two communities, each with separate needs and agendas. Consequently, many old and venerable bike clubs have experienced a drop in membership and some have disbanded altogether.

But for the most part, kinky people have segregated themselves out from the riders as the process of erotic specialization has continued. Generally, the riding community seems not to have minded this development perhaps because many of the members of riding clubs are either turned off or embarrassed by the erotic visibility of the kinky crowd 'Birds of a feather'. But for this discussion, it is noteworthy that many of those kinky people retained the paramilitary trappings, manners and attitudes of that early, core group of returning World War ll. gay vets.

Most importantly, these features of the military mind-set joined with kinky interests and became erotic in and of themselves became fetishes. These men then were the original 'Old Guard', and so it will come as no surprise that their quasi-military rules of inclusion and exclusion still influence kinky society today.

So what exactly were the (unspoken) 'Old Guard' rules? Here are a few of the more important ones that had prevailed by 1970:

About Attire
Always wear boots, butch ones, and preferably black.

Always wear a wide black leather belt plain, not fancy.

Never mix brown leather with black leather.

Never mix chrome or silver trim with gold or brass trim.

Long pants only, Levi's or leather, and no shorts.

Chaps indicate more commitment than Levi's, and leather pants more commitment than chaps, especially when worn consistently.

Leather Jackets must have epaulets (bike riders excepted).

Head gear is reserved for Tops or experienced or heavy bottoms only.

Bottoms may not own collars unless a particular Top has allowed that bottom to be the custodian of the Top's collar. A bottom wearing a collar is a slave, and belongs to the owner of the collar who, presumably, has the keys. Other Tops are not to engage a collared bottom in conversation, but other bottoms may do so. Should such a relationship end, the collar must be returned to the Top.

Never touch the bill of a bike cap, including your own.

Never touch another man's cap (or head gear) unless you are very intimate friends or lovers.

Keep studs and other decorations to a tasteful minimum unless they happen to be club insignia.

Never wear another man's leather unless he puts it on you.

Leather, other than boots and belt, must be 'earned' through the achievement of successively challenging 'scenes.'

Wearing gloves is reserved for heavy players, glove fetishists or bike riders.

Always indicate SM preference, only with keys left or right.

If you are cruising seriously, wear the keys out; if not seriously, tuck them in a back pocket.

Always indicate strictly leather sex or 'rough sex' interest by wearing no keys at all.

Those who 'switch' are second class players and not to be taken as seriously because they haven't made their minds up. If you must switch, do so in another town.

'Full' leather is reserved for after 10:00 P.M. only and only with 'our own kind'.

Respect the public by wearing less of it during the day--don't frighten old ladies (l did once by accident), or anyone else for that matter.
About Socializing and Cruising
Experience in the Scene determines social seniority (Top or bottom), not age, not size, not amount of leather worn, and not offices held in organizations, awards received or titles won.

Tops and experienced bottoms should be accorded higher respect and deference unless and until they behave rudely--all are expected to observe rules of social courtesy-bad manners are inexcusable and can lower one's status in the Scene (thereby reducing access to the Knowledgeable People for information or play),

Real Leathermen keep their word: they do not borrow or lend money; they conduct their affairs with honor and integrity-they don't lie.

Preliminary social contact should be on the formal side.

'Senior Persons' (Top or bottom) are not to be interrupted when in conversation.

Experience being equal, Tops lead the conversation.

Junior Tops defer to Senior Tops and Senior bottoms in social situations.

Junior bottoms defer to all others in the Scene but not to outsiders.

When walking together, bottoms walk half-a-step behind and to the left of Tops with whom they are involved or playing.

It is up to the Top or the experienced bottom to extend a hand to invite a handshake. (All touching is highly restricted during initial contact between strangers.) NEVER over-indulge in drugs or alcohol in public, or otherwise attract scornful attention to one's self--to do so brings dishonor on the men in the Scene,

Tops should always have the first two opportunities to make verbal or physical contact,

The more submissive one is, the less direct eye contact one makes-glance frequently at or stare at His boots only when cruising; less so in non-sexual conversation. The more dominant one is, the more direct the eye contact is unless there is no erotic interest (cruising only).

Men in the Scene do not discuss (or write about the Scene with outsiders. All men in the Scene must be able to spot outsiders with the 'right stuff' and be ready to facilitate them into the Scene after they indicate sincere interest.

None of these rules are taught or explained to anyone except by innuendo, inference, or example.

Erotic technical information is only shared among peers.

Maintain formal and non-committal relationships with those outside the scene; avoid contact with feminine men. Women are not allowed although Senior People may occasionally have intellectual or brief social relationships with the occasional qualified kinky woman, but only in private.
Very few men maintained full compliance with all these rules all the time, and some, flatly refused to follow rules they personally objected to. But, to be included one was expected to follow at least most of these rules most of the time. Also, confusingly, there was some variation in some of the rules depending on what city you happened to be in at the time. The list above is not complete although it conveys the sense of the style.

Understandably, a certain stiffness surrounded the men who followed these rules, just as a certain stiffness surrounded the military men of the era. Those who sought inclusion had the challenge of finding a relaxed and easygoing way to follow rules. However, this required considerable social skill and many kinky people lacking those skills (or patience) simply gave up and accepted a frustrated role on the fringe.

As time passed, there were more and more guys in their twenties whose early sexual development had not been influenced strongly by contact with the military. Therefore, they lacked the early raw material with which to fetish-ize the military features of the 'Old Guard' leather/SM scene. Still, they needed information and experiences to help shape the urges of insistent kinky longings.

These people were essentially without resources until the establishment of kinky organizations brought about new educational opportunities that were not bound by 'Old Guard' rules. Consequently, there is a lot more support now for new people coming into the leather/ SM scene who have other ideas (non-military) about what is hot. Long hair, rockers with wild designs on their jackets, road racing bikers with brightly colored leathers, leather faeries, skinheads, women and others now are found on turf once dominated by the 'Old Guard' system'.

So, 'Old Early Guard' or perhaps thought of as 'Early Guard' or perhaps 'First Guard' because that style makes sense given the erotic influences that shaped the inner lives of the men who were coming of age sexually at that time. The Old Guard made some real contributions and made some real mistakes, and still does both.

It is more useful to understand than to criticize. And, perhaps most importantly, what the Old Guard did for the development and expansion of kinky life and butch gay male sexuality can best be appreciated against the backdrop of what had existed earlier--not much of anything!

But remember this, as long as we have a military, and a paramilitary police system, and as long as that military has traditions of initiation, ritual, inclusion/exclusion, honor and service, there will always be an 'Old Guard'. Its size and influence in the leather/SM scene will probably always be proportional to the role played by the military and other paramilitary organizations in society -- larger following wartime and smaller during peace. I thought maybe you'd like to know.

Guy Baldwin"



As always,
Grace

A mediocre Top tells...
A good Dom teaches...
An excellent Domme explains...
But a true Master inspires

(in reply to shai^tana)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: The term "Old guard" - 2/8/2004 10:30:34 AM   
shai^tana


Posts: 24
Joined: 1/8/2004
Status: offline
Again. since this girl initiated the question in this thread, it has gone in a number of directions, promoting different beliefs and levels of understanding. Of course, as all participants voice their opinions, or sources they believe have the answer, it has been very enlightening. It is sincerely gratifying that so many chose to interact here surrounding the question.

Thank You all again, it has been an enjoyable and revealing discussion.
shai^tana

(in reply to PandoraGrace)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: The term "Old guard" - 3/5/2004 2:20:07 AM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
~va'della~

(in reply to shai^tana)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: The term "Old guard" - 3/7/2004 2:55:40 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
Hello Foilks,

Most of the posts here miss the point, and you need to get some more history lessons Sheri. To understand what "Old Guard" means, you have to understand what was going on when the term was coined. The term "Old Guard" was coined by individuals in the established leather community about the time that BDSM started going commercial. Basically, it was a way to differentiate the groups that had been, until then, very secretive, fraternal, tight-nit, structured, and on the fringes, (gang like) from groups like Janus that were commercial, public, and because they needed paying members, very light on structure and "anything goes" so as not to offend anyone. No, there wasn't ever one "Old Guard", just as there isn't one "Old School" of anything. When you say you're "Old School" nobody challenges you to prove that there is an actual school somewhere. You are just stating that you are conservative in your approach to whatever it is. That's sort of how it is with "Old Guard".

Does the term have relevance today? Some. To legitimately say that you are "Old Guard" really means that you belong to some kind of old style, tight-nit, gang like group that enforces a shared set of standards and protocols for how one becomes accepted in the group as free or slave, and interacts as a free member of the group, or as a slave member of the group. Do such standards apply "across the board"? No, they don't. They usually only apply within a specific group, and yes, there are such groups. Some of them are "Gorean" groups whose standards are very influenced by the content found in that series of novels. That is the only tie between Gor and Old Guard.

Most folks today aren't "Old Guard" because they reserve the right to arrive at their own personal definition of what Master, Mistress, free, slave, Dom, sub, etc. means, and what behavior is expected when one identifies oneself as same. Most folks today have a very "live and let live" philosophy about what others do. Being a Dom, Master, Mistress, sub, or slave, doesn't require anything other than the guts to say you are one. There is no standard, because nobody wants to be seen as judgemental. It wasn't that way with the "Old Guard". If you wanted to do SM in the 40s, 50s, and early 60s, you had to become accepted into a very secret world. It's just not so today. Today's mainstream group model of BDSM is very much the public, commercial, anything goes, live and let live play party model that had its genesis in the late 60s and early 70s.

There you go. Probably more than you wanted to know. Take care of yourselves.

Leonidas

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: The term "Old guard" - 3/7/2004 7:00:39 PM   
erebus


Posts: 169
Joined: 1/15/2004
Status: offline
I've been in this lifestyle for over 30 years, and I've never met any 'old guard' bdsm'ers. Sorry. I agree it is probably a myth.

I do also agree that when people talk about the 'old guard', they are probably talking about a rigid pattern of behavior, probably associated with gay practioners.

I've never played with gay men, so I can't really verify or nullify any discussion about their behavior.

Also, there might be something with the notion that, years ago (such as when I started looking for an 'organized' scene) bdsm was so far in the back of the closet that everyone thought they were the only ones with these feelings (though one suspects that the flogging scenes from the 50's gladiator flicks had some bdsm connection). So keeping a LOW profile was probably a matter of survival.

(in reply to shai^tana)
Profile   Post #: 40
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