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RE: The term "Old guard" - 6/28/2004 4:58:46 PM

Rover

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Thanks for the welcome, January. And I have no doubt that I've repeated much (or all) of what has already been said. As I mentioned earlier, I didn't read all the posts.

As for me being strident? Nah, not so much strident as direct and clinical when I write (and often when I speak).

Finally, I noted that the link to the articles mentioned was inadvertantly missing from my earlier post. Here then, is the compilation of articles listed:

http://groups.msn.com/TheFemaleSubmissive/yourwebpage1.msnw

Rover

(in reply to January)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 7/2/2004 1:16:03 AM

SMF

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As far as I know, the term "old guard," has it's roots in post ww2, gay leather scene in NYC. I doubt seriously that they referred to themselves, as such, not unlike the beatniks if the fifties, or the hippies of the late sixties. My interpretation of the term is that it is more a stlye than an organization. Protocals, positions, etc, were stressed, and there was a "right" and a "wrong" way to do things.

All of this are my perceptions, of course. I also feel that everything one reads on the net, is not always the last word.

Thank you,

John

(in reply to SherriA)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 7/2/2004 9:05:47 AM

stormiKnightBEAR

Posts: 306
Joined: 3/14/2004
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Sir,
BRAVO!!!!

Thanks,
stormi
property of Master Bear

_____________________________

owned white silk slave of TEMJI aka Master Bear

PROUD TO BE TEXAN AND AMERICAN BY BIRTH~
GOD BLESS TEXAS AND THE U.S.A !!!!

(in reply to SMF)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 7/4/2004 6:30:59 PM

LordODiscipline

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Joined: 6/28/2004
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www.bdsmdebunkingthemyths.com

There are no ancient houses, it is not associated with the idiocy of 'Gor', and the term originated from a speech Napoleon gave to his troops.

~J

(in reply to shai^tana)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 7/5/2004 10:45:39 AM

Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
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quote:

There are no ancient houses, it is not associated with the idiocy of 'Gor', and the term originated from a speech Napoleon gave to his troops.

Sir-

Is that you?

I am me, Lawrence.

Welcome to the boards- I look forward to your input here.

My best to your girl (if that is you<g>.)

Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 7/5/2004 11:54:17 AM

Rover

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Hey, Lawrence. Nice to see you again (we met at the LIFE event).

John aka "Rover"

P.S. - Yeah, that's "him".

(in reply to topcat)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 7/5/2004 8:42:21 PM

Posts: 1005
Joined: 3/31/2004
From: Sacramento, California
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oooOOOooo

I wanna be introduced to the gentleman Lawrence called Sir! (cuz that just speaks volumes, dontchas know) C'mon ya guys ... don't be rude! hehe

OKokok, I'll do it *sigh*

Hiyas LOD! Welcome to CollarMe! Nice ta meetchas!

~ShadeDiva - ever cheeky, ever bouyant. LOL!

_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
theFetishForums
HumanFauna
Kinked
DommeWorld

(in reply to Rover)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 7/6/2004 10:21:30 PM

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From: Tidewater, VA
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quote:

I wanna be introduced to the gentleman Lawrence called Sir!

M. Shade-

I tend to use Sir or M'am pretty freely in social situations- even if I didn't, LoD rates it. I know a lot that talk the talk- the man walks the walk.

He is also on of the most precisely correct mannered people I have ever met. And he has that really rare gift I envy....

He looks great in a fedora.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to ShadeDiva)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 7/6/2004 10:23:32 PM

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From: Tidewater, VA
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Rover!-

Welcome aboard! It's great to start seeing some more people I have met 'realtime' here on the board...

Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to Rover)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 7/7/2004 12:57:35 AM

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From: Sacramento, California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat
M. Shade-

I tend to use Sir or M'am pretty freely in social situations- even if I didn't, LoD rates it. I know a lot that talk the talk- the man walks the walk.

That came through loud and clear *smile* One reason it caught my attention.

quote:

ORIGINAL: topcatHe is also on of the most precisely correct mannered people I have ever met. And he has that really rare gift I envy....

He looks great in a fedora.

Prepare to envy me then - hehehe! I look killer in a properly fitting fedora! Hah!

Couldn't resist, lol.

~ShadeDiva

_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
theFetishForums
HumanFauna
Kinked
DommeWorld

(in reply to topcat)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 7/7/2004 1:00:14 AM

Posts: 1005
Joined: 3/31/2004
From: Sacramento, California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat
It's great to start seeing some more people I have met 'realtime' here on the board...

I'd agree but it also feels a teeny tad strange too, hehe! I'm seeing like six of my dfferent r/t social spheres interconnecting with about seven of my online social spheres LOL.

It's cool - but a tad bit odd too.

*chortle*

~ShadeDiva

_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
theFetishForums
HumanFauna
Kinked
DommeWorld

(in reply to topcat)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 7/7/2004 6:01:47 AM

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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

He looks great in a fedora.

I need to get me one of those for dancing. But first things first, I am having dancing leather soles put on a pair of Vans red and white checkered slip-on tennis shoes.

My partner on the docks said "So you are going for the full-on nutbag approach?"

Guilty as charged, yer honor.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to ShadeDiva)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 7/12/2004 7:14:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Samos

I must agree with what the Master "Strict and Cruel" states that to label one a fake because they have the term "Old Guard" in the list of interests a fake something that no one has the right to challenge, unless that person has worn the collar of the other or seen first hand that person training or disciplining a slave or on the receiving end of said experience.

"Unless you've walked the self same road, in the self same shoes, at the self same time, you do not know what that person has experienced." Author Unknown

On the subject of Old Guard, its a state of mind same as saying one is a Dom/me or sub/slave, I was raised what I know as to be Old Guard, taught as a slave to be a Master, granted I don't claim myself a Master, Hell knows their are things even I don't know however I am Dom in route to be Master, thus is my goal so you may take any definition you like as to this term even the terms given to us from these gorean novels, {a man who wrote about his own views thus the reason some use it as a reference but to ask that would be the same as asking you what you consider a Dom/me to be one has to find the path for them self. hell I don't care if you use the Term tail for a cat of 9 if you can use one you can use one regardless what words are used.... best thing you can do is if someone uses that term have the respect to ask that person what it is to them.

(in reply to Samos)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 7/16/2004 6:01:31 AM

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"Old Guard" for all intensive purposes simply means...how a slave/sub is treated by his/her/its Master. There is respect on both sides of the "relationship". Old Guard Masters are more strict than the "so-called" New Guard Master. But, at the same time, Old Guard Masters also treated their slaves much more like a "person" than property..although the slave/sub knew the difference. Don't know if this helped or hurt the discussion..just offering what I know of the topic.

(in reply to Samos)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 7/16/2004 6:16:51 AM

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Joined: 2/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LITopMaster

"Old Guard" for all intensive purposes simply means...how a slave/sub is treated by his/her/its Master. There is respect on both sides of the "relationship". Old Guard Masters are more strict than the "so-called" New Guard Master. But, at the same time, Old Guard Masters also treated their slaves much more like a "person" than property..although the slave/sub knew the difference. Don't know if this helped or hurt the discussion..just offering what I know of the topic.

Well I do not know of the " New Guard ", but Old Guard a slave was treated as a person if they earned that right correct, because they were being taught to Dom/me. The statement of ""Old Guard" for all intensive purposes simply means...how a slave/sub is treated by his/her/its Master." it isnt how one was treated it was how you were taught, You were taught to Master one thing and move on to the next and continuie this over and over and over again < minor issuie doing the same thing over lol. when you Master one thing you then became a teacher of that thing. Being treated Strict or Respected was somthing earned and taken away even faster. Just dont want people to think of it as well they were harder or easier its more of that you were taught to become better and then when you gained that to teach others lol.. if that can be said in such a lame manor

(in reply to LITopMaster)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 7/16/2004 6:45:45 AM

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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

I tend to use Sir or M'am pretty freely in social situations- even if I didn't, LoD rates it. I know a lot that talk the talk- the man walks the walk.

Hello,

I do as well. I blame years working in user support, as well as being with a partner for a while who was almost insanely polite. I find that it pleasantly surprises people when I refer to them as such, as well as lubricates social interactions to be deferential at the outset.

Being dominant in a situation is not what a person says, it is how a person acts.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to draxxe)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 7/16/2004 7:46:32 PM

LordODiscipline

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Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

Wow -
This ia about convoluted.

Old Guard is "Gor" - Hardly
The term was first familiaraly coined by Napoleon Bonaparte a his speech to his troops. He refered to them as the "Old Guard"

"Soldiers of my Old Guard: I bid you farewell."
-Napoleon Bonaparte

After the American Civil War, the term became common in usage among military fraternal organizations. Thereafter it became a colloquial for anyone of former military service especially if they were associated with a group or organization of veterans.

It was first used in association with gay leather (and, leather in general) when "pretenders to the power" in an effort to rid themselves of the influence of the older members of the group stated that there should be no accommodation to the "Old Guard" (This was in reference to Larry Townsend and his associates) in the early 70's. It was meant as an epitaph and a means of insulting them

Through the writings of Guy Baldwin, Joseph Bean and others, it slowly grew into something that was to be considered an "honor" to be known as these people who were so dengrated.

The veterans of WW2 and Korea who formed the essence of modern leather were never called "Old Guard" by each other. It was somehting they were labeled with derogatorily and which has come to mean something special.

One of the things that is amusing in a sad way is the way in which people try to manipulate others utilizing their own anecdotes and inventions that distort our real history for God knows what reason.

Where I come from they refer to it as a talent towards BS and is generally laughed about, as the person speaking is known to be telling tales.

Unfortunatly, this is not as harmless as those tall tales I heard as a child.

~J

(in reply to Samos)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 7/16/2004 8:04:03 PM

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Hi LordODiscipline,

What you are saying is a version very close to what I have heard and read. I'm not old enough to have been there, and not gay, so I can't claim first hand knowledge. I can tell you though that there are groups today that, rightly or wrongly do refer to each other as "Old Guard", and emulate what they believe to be the customs and practices of those early groups. Some of these groups are gay, some are not. What they share in common with the original "Old Guard" is that they are almost always male dominanted, fraternal, not particularly evangelical or welcoming of random outsiders, and they value structure and group custom.

What you are saying here sounds like the term "Old Guard" was coined as a result of some internal power struggle within the Gay community. From some of the older folks that I have known, and who clamed ot have been there at the time (as opposed reading about it from Guy or Joseph), it was a moniker that was hung on the original leather crowd by the pan-sexual SM scene when it started to go commercial, about the time that you just stated, the early '70s. Maybe the pan-sexual crowd just picked up the moniker and ran with it. After all these years, I guess it could be tough to say for sure.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 7/17/2004 4:01:39 PM

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Joined: 2/4/2004
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well sure its used in the military, hell it was used in the dark ages too if you want to research it that far but to assume they are referring to the BDS/m asspect of the term.. and if the Gay community used so be it. after all we all use the term "sub" do we not or is that only a gay term.. and to the ones who read up on the term thank you for your posts we learn alot from owr peers around us.

< Message edited by draxxe -- 7/17/2004 4:04:04 PM >

(in reply to Leonidas)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 7/17/2004 6:15:59 PM

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Pure conjecture on my part, but after reading this thread, here's what I think.

I'm a bit of a history buff, and here is a nearly useless tidbid taking up my ever dwindling grey matter. The old guard was used to distinquish Napoleon's original guardsmen from the new guard after they increased the size of the famous guard corp. The newcomers were known the new guard, and the orignals were forever known as the old guard.

If I had to bet, odds are the phrase was coined by someone with an interest in the Napoleonic era who saw the ranks of bdsm increasing, and wanted to distinquish the true "guardsmen" of old from the huge influx of newcomers.

Just one aardvark's opinion.

(in reply to draxxe)

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