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RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/17/2004 12:20:56 PM

stormiKnightBEAR

Posts: 306
Joined: 3/14/2004
Status: offline

hello proudsub,

In answer to your question, YES you can be a bdsm'er or S/m or D/s without the old guard.
You can be whatever you want to be in your relationship as long as it WORKS for YOUR
Dom/Master and yourself.

Bottom line is that everyone needs the relationship to work for them not what works for others.

There are those here who would like to tell stormi's Master how to control her or even to sit in
judgment. However those are the very ones that seem to want to define how a relationship works
for others. What works here does not work for everyone. What things stormi does for Master might
not be for you or the girl down the street. However they work for Master and stormi so they are done.

Every Master/Dom has to find what protocols or guidelines He wants for His girl/boy and then make
sure that they work in the outline of the relationship. No one regardless of the light they hold themself
in has the right to judge or dictate how another's relationship should be..... but unfortunately, they out
number those that want to just live life the way it works for others.

Be Well,
stormi
property of Master Bear

_____________________________

owned white silk slave of TEMJI aka Master Bear

PROUD TO BE TEXAN AND AMERICAN BY BIRTH~
GOD BLESS TEXAS AND THE U.S.A !!!!

(in reply to proudsub)

RE: RANT RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/17/2004 1:45:31 PM

Posts: 4
Joined: 4/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SherriA

The Old Guard is a myth. The was NO "old guard". There was no cohesive, organized association with standardized protocols and beliefs. What existed, according to all my research, were a variety of individual groups, each with their own rituals and rules. So then, which set of beliefs was The Old Guard ? And how was that determined?

The Old Guard is a legend made up by younger generations. Why? I don't know. Perhaps they wanted something to strive for. Perhaps they were trying to legitimize their beliefs. Or perhaps they just had too much time on their hands and vivid imaginations. IMX, those who claim to be part of The Old Guard are simply trying to beef up a suspect resume of experience.

If someone claims to have been trained in "an old guard style", then I'm less likely to rant, because that at least acknowledges that there was no mythical "one true way". When they say they're from The Old Guard, I say they're full of shit. At least, that's my experience.

If you want to know about the history of the leather community, join the leather history group on yahoo. There's some great information there, and very knowledgable people who aren't afraid to tell it like it is, and like it was.

-- Sherri

Sorry dear.....

Old Guard came from the training and service of a set of slaves, or serfs, in Europe around the 13th century. You will not find much on it in normal history, but will find it in military history from that time period. It was about service, service to ones Lord or Knight.

(in reply to SherriA)

RE: RANT RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/17/2004 1:58:39 PM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MacKnife

Old Guard came from the training and service of a set of slaves, or serfs, in Europe around the 13th century. You will not find much on it in normal history, but will find it in military history from that time period. It was about service, service to ones Lord or Knight.

my parnter and i are students of this era (13th century) in England. while i'm interested in lifestyles, he primarially studies military history. i can't say we've EVER found anything linking the surf/lord lifestyle to so-called "old gaurd" bdsm.

there are similiarities that i can see, yes, but i sincearly doubt that that is anything but coincidental. please cite your sources. i'd be very interested.

(in reply to MacKnife)

RE: RANT RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/17/2004 1:59:59 PM

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Joined: 1/6/2004
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Old Guard was about conscripting serfs and peasants into a military force to serve a lord or Knight, and not about BDSM protocols? Amazing, that means the US Government is Old Guard, or at least were while the military draft system was in use.

Every day affords us with a whole new definition of this lifestyle buzzword. In another forum we have one telling us OLD Guard means Dominant subspace!

The most confusing and least sensible definitions have come from a few Masters who claim to have been trained as slaves in Old Guard, and then as Old Guard Masters... I know I'm NOT Old Guard (per their definition), as I've always been Dominant and never been a sub or slave... but I'm not a Switch, which seems to be a prerequisite in some Old Guard circles.

Old Guard seems to be much like KoolAid... you make it the way you want it!

Inyouagain

_____________________________

Careful with that axe, Eugene

(in reply to MacKnife)

RE: RANT RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/17/2004 2:15:53 PM

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

Old Guard seems to be much like KoolAid... you make it the way you want it!

Avoid letting Jim Jones mix it up.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to inyouagain)

RE: RANT RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/17/2004 6:00:18 PM

Posts: 14
Joined: 5/16/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: inyouagain

Every day affords us with a whole new definition of this lifestyle buzzword. In another forum we have one telling us OLD Guard means Dominant subspace!

Old Guard seems to be much like KoolAid... you make it the way you want it!

Inyouagain

what i had said was that itisi the methodoligy oiganley put in palce to allow both to enter a state of altered conciousness and in p[roving for at least one side it exists i used the term subspace

(in reply to inyouagain)

RE: RANT RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/18/2004 12:21:23 AM

Posts: 418
Joined: 1/6/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MASTERB4U
what i had said was that itisi the methodoligy oiganley put in palce to allow both to enter a state of altered conciousness and in p[roving for at least one side it exists i used the term subspace

It appears that your entire impetus and scope of Old Guard involves S/m with a Master and his female slave, and the altered states of conciousness these two achieve together. Subspace exists for subs and slaves alike across most all BDSM roles/role plays, other than simply a masochistic female slave being delivered to nirvana by her sadistic Master. Subspace can be achieved in many venues, and of course pain is a common venue... while it may be purely sexual in other venues, or even mental. Anything in the various types of M/s, D/s, S/m relationships (between male/female Dominants, and their male/female submissives) that triggers an altered state of conciousness, whether it be endorphin induced (pain), intense satisfaction/acceptance of their service (contentment), or various other methodologies (internally or externally induced), can achieve an altered state of conciousness. Simply being in love (lifestyle or vanilla) can be considered an altered state of conciousness.

My biggest difficulty with your redundant posting to spread your Old Guard agenda across the board, is that it is simply your concept, not based on fact or references, simply your bold words. Add to that your entire concept revolves wholly around an S/m pairing of a sadistic male Dominant and a masochistic female slave... and absolutely nobody else in the lifestyle.

Perhaps you would enjoy some reference material to help confuse your redundantly posted/stated Old Guard concept and philosophy:

Iron Rose Library - A collection of lifestyle articles.

Old Guard? If You say so - by Joseph W. Bean - His view of the 60s version of OG in gay leather.

What does a submissive feel in subspace? - by Catalina - Article describing what subspace feels like, as per a submissive.

The Responsibilities and Duties of a Dom - by Les Is More - Article regarding R & D of a Dom.

The Old Days - by Jay Wiseman - One of about six articles on Albany Power Exchange website.

And for purely "nostalgia purposes", a few non-BDSM Old Guard links:

The 3rd US Infantry Regiment - The Old Guard - Home page historical perspective of "The Old Guard".

Military Art - The Old Guard Homepage - Various Art related to Military Old Guard.

Napoleon Bonaparte - Goodbye to the Old Guard - Even Napolean had an Old Guard, and said goodbye.

These are but a drop in the bucket of the plethora of websites offering information about Old Guard, and none of the predominantly "leather philosophies" of Old Guard origin I saw, or the various assorted other philosophies of Old Guard origin seemed to include simply your S/m philosophy redundantly posted across the board.

Simply searching Google for Old Guard will return thousands of other links and philosophies regarding Old Guard... and many of those refer to subs/slaves being trained as Dominants (inferring an Old Guard prerequisite of being a Switch).

As I stated in another thread, Old Guard seems to be like Kool-Aid... everyone making their own color and flavor as they want, and to sweeten it to the level of sweetspace they want. I saw nothing regarding any of your stated "altered state of conciousness" philosophy in the plethora of online articles/documentation, or anywhere else... except for here, during the last couple of days.

The definition of Old Guard is essentially like the definition of beauty... it seems to be relative, and lies in the eye of the beholder... or their peer group.

Inyouagain

_____________________________

Careful with that axe, Eugene

(in reply to MASTERB4U)

RE: RANT RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/18/2004 6:11:18 AM

Posts: 4
Joined: 4/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic

quote:

ORIGINAL: MacKnife

Old Guard came from the training and service of a set of slaves, or serfs, in Europe around the 13th century. You will not find much on it in normal history, but will find it in military history from that time period. It was about service, service to ones Lord or Knight.

my parnter and i are students of this era (13th century) in England. while i'm interested in lifestyles, he primarially studies military history. i can't say we've EVER found anything linking the surf/lord lifestyle to so-called "old gaurd" bdsm.

there are similiarities that i can see, yes, but i sincearly doubt that that is anything but coincidental. please cite your sources. i'd be very interested.

I stated Europe: it was used in outer areas of England, where kings rule was not as strong. But in other areas of Europe, where "warlords" ruled on the outer fringes of a kindom. It was not called "old guard", ( a term not know in the words of that time) but the same duties, etc., have been brought forward to this time, with some changes to fit.
Sources can be found in in the librarys at the Citadel, Ohio State Unv. Penn. State, Texas A&M, and West Point.

(in reply to perverseangelic)

RE: RANT RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/18/2004 6:17:32 AM

Posts: 4
Joined: 4/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: inyouagain

Old Guard was about conscripting serfs and peasants into a military force to serve a lord or Knight, and not about BDSM protocols? Amazing, that means the US Government is Old Guard, or at least were while the military draft system was in use.

Every day affords us with a whole new definition of this lifestyle buzzword. In another forum we have one telling us OLD Guard means Dominant subspace!

The most confusing and least sensible definitions have come from a few Masters who claim to have been trained as slaves in Old Guard, and then as Old Guard Masters... I know I'm NOT Old Guard (per their definition), as I've always been Dominant and never been a sub or slave... but I'm not a Switch, which seems to be a prerequisite in some Old Guard circles.

Old Guard seems to be much like KoolAid... you make it the way you want it!

Inyouagain

Yes, you are correct....It came from something that had nothing to do with BDSM. (They did not know waht that was back then) But it did involve service, and a type of slavery, to a Lord or Master. And other than the sex part, the lines are near the same. Now I am sure if it was a woman who was held as a slave, sex was a part, and maybe if the Lord liked boys as well.

(in reply to inyouagain)

RE: RANT RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/18/2004 8:13:34 AM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MacKnife

I stated Europe: it was used in outer areas of England, where kings rule was not as strong. But in other areas of Europe, where "warlords" ruled on the outer fringes of a kindom. It was not called "old guard", ( a term not know in the words of that time) but the same duties, etc., have been brought forward to this time, with some changes to fit.
Sources can be found in in the librarys at the Citadel, Ohio State Unv. Penn. State, Texas A&M, and West Point.

yes, england is not all of europe, the reason i was spesific is to aknowlege that i haven't studied in depth everyone one can study. i have a more than passing knowledge of other areas.

you gave me libraries. tell me what i'd be looking for in those libraries. i mean, i know how to search a library, but one can't go in and ask the librarian for information on the Old Gaurd in medieval europe. i think she'd give me a very confused look. i'm interested in the books, articles, and magazines you drew your information from. not because i doubt you, rather because i'd like to make myself better informed.

i have access to an excelent academic library. name some texts and i'll get hoppin' and make myself a little bit smarter.

(in reply to MacKnife)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/27/2004 5:39:18 AM

Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SherriA

I haven't had any difficulty researching the subject, personally. The information is out there. It's simply a matter of looking for it. As I said, the Leather History group is a good place to start.

I'd be very interested in seeing some evidence of the existence of a cohesive organization called The Old Guard, with standardized protocols and beliefs that didn't differ (often widely) from each little enclave to the next.

And I ask again, which one of those myriad sets of beliefs is THE one true way of The Old Guard? And who got to decide that?

-- Sherri

I agree that "OLD GUARD" is some what of a mythe<as we all know it started and grew after the war.In san fran a groups of loose rules for the Gay leather crowd know one when view.The old guard the new ones use today comes from the old english head master/mistress punishment in the boarding schools carried a few steps forward.
I hear the screaming all ready folks but facts are facts...BOUNTY

(in reply to SherriA)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 6/2/2004 10:54:18 AM

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Joined: 4/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LrdSatyr8

Ok... here's the facts everyone... Old Guard is a term that first started inthe GOR series of books in the 70's... [edited by Mod] Anyway... because of the myth and the useage it has seen many different changes over the years... these days it has come to mean that the one was taught by another Dom/Master in a strictly controlled environment. I however don't like the term Old Guard... it has no actual meaning unless you're talking about Gor and then I tend to ignore you. Reason being that most newbie wannabe trolls tend to use the term Old Guard (because they read it in the Gor books) to make them appear more knowledgeable then they really are. It's these types of terms that you as a new submissive should be cautious of because 9 times out of 10 they are players or preditors. When you hear the term Old Guard... Be on your own guard!

-=> Satyr! <=-

ed. It is asked that you refrain from insulting the Lifestyle choices of others.

The opinion you hold of those involved in the Gorean Lifestyle is exactly the opinion many of them hold of your preferences. If the situation were reversed and you on the receiving end, I would respond no differently.

Does this mean when a 26 year old emails you and tells you he has 8 years of experience and is trained in the old guard and also gorean, you should run? HAHAHAHa (laughing all the way to next email message)

[sm=lol.gif]

(in reply to LrdSatyr8)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 6/2/2004 1:34:16 PM

Posts: 1
Joined: 5/25/2004
Status: offline

'Old Guard' is really a misnomer-a misapplied name-for the earliest set of habits that jelled by the mid to late 1950's in the men's leather community here in the U.S. It is very important to remember that the modern leather scene as we now know it first formalized itself out of the group of men who were soldiers returning home after World War II. (1939-1945).
it does state that the bottoms have levels, as well as the topps and to be a top in "old guard "style one starts from the bottom. hope my two cents helps as I do train my slaves/submissives in this way,
Dominantlly yours ,in love and light
MistressKriss

(in reply to shai^tana)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 6/2/2004 2:01:13 PM

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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

Even Napolean had an Old Guard, and said goodbye.

This sentence makes me roll on the floor laughing every time I read it.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to DommeKriss)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 6/3/2004 5:36:15 AM

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Joined: 1/6/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

Even Napolean had an Old Guard, and said goodbye.

This sentence makes me roll on the floor laughing every time I read it.

Does your laughter make it any less true? Follow the link and laugh all day, LOL

Inyouagain

_____________________________

Careful with that axe, Eugene

(in reply to Sinergy)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 6/3/2004 8:58:39 AM

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Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Does your laughter make it any less true? Follow the link and laugh all day, LOL

Inyouagain

Hrm? I meant that as a compliment to the poster for the tongue-in-cheek nature of the comment.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to inyouagain)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 6/10/2004 7:57:57 AM

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Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DommeKriss

'Old Guard' is really a misnomer-a misapplied name-for the earliest set of habits that jelled by the mid to late 1950's in the men's leather community here in the U.S. It is very important to remember that the modern leather scene as we now know it first formalized itself out of the group of men who were soldiers returning home after World War II. (1939-1945).
it does state that the bottoms have levels, as well as the topps and to be a top in "old guard "style one starts from the bottom. hope my two cents helps as I do train my slaves/submissives in this way,
Dominantlly yours ,in love and light
MistressKriss

This is the most accurate history of the Old Guard that I have found in my own research. Most, if not all of the people I know who are an active part of the Leather Community also support this history.

(I have also heard that the original Old Guard was primarily composed of black men who served in WWII, but I haven't really found any hard evidence to support that one.)

~Thorns

(in reply to DommeKriss)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 6/11/2004 1:01:31 PM

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Joined: 6/10/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: shai^tana

a girl would ask with great respect, some clarification of the term "Old Guard".

This has many different definitions depending on who uses the term. Research into this would seem to yield more data concerning the gay leather community than other references. In the past this girl has met one of the European Old Guard who seem to treasure their privacy, and may be said to be somewhat reclusive. Unfortunately still little is known of this group of Masters.

Many Masters use the Old Guard term in their profiles here and in some cases offer it in addition to the term Gorean Master. It seems this may be the appropriate place to direct inquiries.

For example these definitions are frequently offered by many ;

A group of European Masters who formed this "brotherhood" rooted deeply in the past, and formed smaller groups such as the "blue vase society".

The gay leather community post WW II

Those who prefer a regimented method of training and using slaves according to prescribed established methods. (This definition would seem to address that all Gorean Masters are in fact also Old Guard, which would not seem to be necessarily what people mean by the term)

it would be an honour should any choose to reply. It would be much appreciated.
shai^tana

Speaking to your first choice: I know of someone who was in the service in Japan and was trained as a "master" there. I know of someone else who was trained in a "house" in Germany while on active duty.

Speaking to your second choice, I'd say that's more on the money. Check out Guy Baldwin's posting at: http://www.tdl.com/~thawley/oldgd.html for a history from his perspective.

As to your third choice, I think that encompasses the rest of us, and to varying degrees (can't speak to the Gor thing; you apparently know more about that than I). If this helps you, and by way of example, I went to a Living In Leather conference several years ago, where a round-table discussion was titled "Meet The Dinosaurs". The leaders of the discussion were Vi Johnson from NYC, Jack McGeorge from Washington, DC and one other apparently well-known gentleman from CA (whose name escapes me). The topic got around to "What is Old Guard?" Their perspective matched the above WWII perspective of Guy Baldwin, but there was plenty of room for individual perspective: there was no one standard, as each house seemed to have their own rules & regs. At one point I asked "Can each one of us define Old Guard as 'The Way Things Were When I Got Here' ?" They all laughed and agreed. That was confirmed a few yeas later in a conversation with Jay Weisman who said to me (and I am paraphrasing) "We did what we did in the old days because we had to in order to do the things we wanted to do. What's most important in the here and now is what is in *your *heart."

So that about sums it up.

Sincerely,

Lawrence
Ithaca, NY

(in reply to shai^tana)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 6/28/2004 4:14:31 PM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
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I can't claim that I've read all the posts in this thread, but I read enough of them to be truly appalled at what some people will dream up in order to make themselves or "the lifestyle" more important or more exotic than it really is.

Opinions are one thing, but factual history is not a matter of opinion. Our lifestyle has been thoroughly researched and documented by lifestyle historians, anthropologists, psychologists, and a slew of other professionals (not always with the intention of portraying "us" in the most favorable light).

Here then, are my own factual (ie: not my opinion) contributions to this thread:

1. The term "Old Guard" was first used by Napoleon in reference to his battle tested, and trustworthy, troops. This had no lifestyle meaning whatsoever.

2. The term "Old Guard" was first used in a lifestyle context in the 1970's as a derogatory reference to the older members of the leather community who were reluctant to accept the evolution of "the lifestyle". This was a period of great controversy as the organized lifestyle communities were becoming "inclusive" and pansexual, rather than "exclusive" and gay.

3. The term "Old Guard" specifically refers to the gay servicemen returning from WWII who founded the organized lifestyle communities.

4. These "Old Guard" (they did not refer to themselves as "Old Guard" since the term was not applied to them until the 1970's) members were not a cohesive group with a common "protocol" as is often alluded. In point of fact, they consisted of small, local groups (much like today's munches) each with their own customs, rules, etc.

5. The "Old Guard" shared a common interest in S/M, a familiarity with the rigid heirarchy of the military, and an interest in the emerging American fascination with the motorcycle. They formed motorcycle clubs as a front for their S/M and homosexual activities (in many parts of the country it was illegal for a homosexual to be in a bar, tavern, etc. or they would be considered to be "soliciting for purposes of prostitution"). The motorcycle clubs gave rise to what they called the "leather lifestyle".

5. The history of our lifestyle has been well documented and preserved through organizations such as the Leather Archives & Museum in Chicago, IL. Rick Storer (LA&M Executive Director) sent me an email last summer to say that they had a new "Old Guard" exhibit, featuring many personal retrospectives from contemporaries if the period, artifacts, photograhs, and contributions from many lifestyle historians including Joseph Bean (former LA&M Executive Director), Gayle Rubin, Guy Baldwin, Jack Rinella, etc.

6. There is plenty of fantasy associated with "ancient" European or Oriental organizations. However, not only do they fail the common sense test (ie: how could they elude detection for centuries, despite the great many folks who claim membership and gab about it online?) as well as the scientific test (ie: there is not a shred of documented evidence, although rewards are offered for anyone who can produce such evidence).

7. For those who may wish to actually educate themselves regarding these myths that are promulgated on the internet, I submit the following link to essays and articles by Jay Wiseman (essays on"The Old Days" and "Old Guard"), Joseph Bean ("Old Guard? If You Say So"), Guy Baldwin ("The Old Guard), Jack Rinella ("The Myth Of The Old Guard"), Lord Saber ("Old Guard / New Guard"), Violet Wanda ("Urban Legends Of Ancient European Houses"), KJPS Howe ("Retrospective On The Old Guard"). There are plenty more articles and essays from internationally respected lifestyle historians that I can cite, should the need arise.

8. You can contact the Leather Archives & Museum in Chicago, IL at http://www.leatherarchives.org/ or better yet, visit them at:

Leather Archives & Museum
6418 N. Greenview Avenue
Chicago, IL 60626
773..761.9200
FAX 773..381.4657

There really isn't any historical foundation for these facts to be in question. If folks want to enjoy the fantasy associated with online renditions of the "Old Guard" and ancient European/Oriental houses, that's fine. But I take issue with those who profess fantasy as reality as it manipulates and exploits others, while removing their rights to informed consent (the absence of which often defines "abuse").

You want to believe the fantasy? By all means, go right ahead. Just don't ask the rest of us to join (or believe) you.

Rover

(in reply to stormiKnightBEAR)

RE: The term "Old guard" - 6/28/2004 4:31:52 PM

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Joined: 4/17/2004
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Gosh Rover,

Why so strident? You pretty much repeated what was said before you... (And what most of us know, IMO)

Welcome to the boards; I hope you'll stick around and get to know us better!

January

_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]

(in reply to Rover)

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