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RE: RANT RE: The term "Old guard" - 3/13/2004 10:30:52 AM

topcat

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Good Girl!

that's a great answer, Sher-

stay warm,
Lawrence

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RE: The term "Old guard" - 4/9/2004 4:45:34 AM

TalN

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I can agree with both interpretations to some extent.

The "old guard" was an era, not an organization. It had specific, recognizable traits, but not an established method.

There are individual's whose work and writing conveyed the many of the practices and ideals, but none of them were complete in and of themselves. Even the Leatherman's Handbook which has served as a guide for so many, is not infallible.

Steering someone to the Leather Archives is probably the best source for understanding this, unless you are among those of us who had the priviledge to talk with or learn from those whose legacy is only available second or third hand. And of course, dear Viola, is an excellent resource when she has the time.

Gorean tradition, seems to have evolved with the inclusion of many of the "old guard" traits, but it is certainly not " the old guard" so often referred to.

Mme. TalN

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RE: RANT RE: The term "Old guard" - 4/14/2004 11:12:32 PM

DrJohnSea41

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SherriA

The Old Guard is a myth. The was NO "old guard". There was no cohesive, organized association with standardized protocols and beliefs. What existed, according to all my research, were a variety of individual groups, each with their own rituals and rules. So then, which set of beliefs was The Old Guard ? And how was that determined?

The Old Guard is a legend made up by younger generations. Why? I don't know. Perhaps they wanted something to strive for. Perhaps they were trying to legitimize their beliefs. Or perhaps they just had too much time on their hands and vivid imaginations. IMX, those who claim to be part of The Old Guard are simply trying to beef up a suspect resume of experience.

I completely agree. "Old Guard" is generally just a term used to puff up someone's claims to be experienced. There is (and was) no such thing in any formal sense outside of those occasional groups of people who play together and choose to refer to their own experiences as "Old Guard." This would be similar to calling oneself a "ninja" because you and your friends agree among themselves what a "ninja" is -- NOT because there is any objective, formal or professional organization or society that has decided what constitutes a "ninja" and recognizes members as such.

When used innocently, the term was often an attempt to describe a degree of seriousness towards the lifestyle such that rituals were fairly rigidly defined and heirarchies were established (such as what LanceLake refers to), but such labels are confined to the small groups that chose them and no large-scale, uniform set of rules and rituals exists and there is ZERO evidence that any singular organization has ever existed to enforce them.

You might think of the distinction as similar to thinking of a collar in the same light as a wedding ring versus it being nothing more than a play toy. There are certainly lifestylers that take the collar very seriously and treat the process with a high degree of formality and ritual. Naturally, the form of those rituals is highly individual and no standard set of rituals exists or is likely to. For the majority of people who identify with the lifestyle, we all know how often people offer or accept collaring only to toss the supposed commitment aside a month later and in the same sense the term "Old Guard" can be as equally without depth behind it. This isn't to say people who use the term are automatically insincere, but I would suggest a high degree of skepticism towards anyone who uses the term, especially a Dom who cannot himself explicitly define EXACTLY what the term means.

Again let me reiterate that there is NO evidence a formal, large-scale organization has EVER existed that the term may refer to -- its only legitimate use is as a term that some people label their own experiences within a small group of like-minded people such as what some other posters here have experienced. It has no meaning outside of the lifestyles of those people who choose to label their individual experiences as such.

John

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RE: The term "Old guard" - 4/19/2004 7:46:35 PM

stormiKnightBEAR

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HATS OFF TO SAMOS!!!

The GOR books came LONG after what is considered the first movement or representation of OLD GUARD.

For those that want the correct information on OLD GUARD, you might start with some of JOSEPH BEAN's books. IF you are in Dallas Texas, look in your own back yard. NLA-Dallas.... NATIONAL LEATHER ASSOCIATION of Dallas is full of HIGHLY respected people that are authors and representatives of the OLD GUARD ways.

OLD GUARD is something different to everyone. It's generally used to describe those with high protocol whether in or out of uniform. One thing that never changes is that there is not a submissive when referencing OLD GUARD. There were Masters and there were slaves.

Old Guard slaves were possessions, much like property. It's putting your Master and HIS needs above and in front of yourself and others. It's a mind set. Master and HIS needs, HIS pleasures, serving HIM is what gives a OLD GUARD slave their sense of purpose.
The only way most who consider themself OLD GUARD trained receive pleasure is in seeing the pleasure in their Master's face or hearing in HIS voice. Take that away and we are lost.

OLD GUARD Masters can be described as high protocol Dominants. There is not however a book to refer to the protocols. Every Master has their own protocols that are designed to give them what they need as Masters.

After WWII, men were at times at a loss. Their sexuality that sometimes was discovered and the regimen found in the troups of WWII, the uniforms ect... were what most believe was the beginning of the gay leather male movement. As they used the
*bike club* idea ( from the likes of the biker clubs of today) to *justify* the wearing of uniforms and strict behavior guidelines as well as an acceptable excuse for getting together with groups of other males.

NLA-Dallas about 2x a year offers a program on OLD GUARD, and it's usually standing room only for the folks seeking knowledge.

It is evident by the responses here that very dayum few on this site have any idea what and where the term Old Guard comes from.

Maybe the next time you need information on OLD GUARD you might consider visiting some of the authors or reading the books dedicated to the OLD Guard.

Be well,
stormi
property of Master Bear ([email protected])

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Post #: 44

The term "Old guard" - 4/19/2004 7:51:39 PM

Temji

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Tal, and greetings...

"The Old Guard is a myth. The was NO "old guard". There was no cohesive, organized association with standardized protocols and beliefs. What existed, according to all my research, were a variety of individual groups, each with their own rituals and rules. So then, which set of beliefs was The Old Guard ? And how was that determined?"

"The Old Guard began in the Gor novels of John Norman."

Having sat in with Jack Rinella and Guy Baldwin among others... the first quote is essentially correct. What there WAS however, was a very GENERAL sort of protocols and guidelines on how things were done. Specifically, a Leatherman from New York could move to Los Angeles and be MOSTLY on target with what he knew and what he did. Every Leather club had it's own "thing" of course... that's rather obvious. Being former Army, I see a corollary to "Old Army"... a First Sergeant from 1965 could drop into today's army and be MOSTLY correct if he just went with what he knew.

Done with that.

The second quote however is ENTIRELY false. I read My first Gorean novel about three years after printing. I had no clue of the Leather lifestyle or bdsm or any of the rest of this for an exceptionally long time. My girl is Leather, with traditional Leather training and values. After ko laring her, and spending a year or so amongst the Leathermen that are her family, I can assure you that there is a serious amount of crossover... but they are not the same... did Dr. Lange have Leather background or training?... dunno... but though the similarities are certainly there, they are NOT the same... and NO Gorean among the many I know would claim that Gor 'fathered' the Old Guard Leather Lifestyle.

I have spoken...

I wish you well,

Temji KnightStorm
{trudging off with stormi~{KS}~W~

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Post #: 45

RE: The term "Old guard" - 4/20/2004 4:39:39 PM

topcat

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M.Temji-

Well said, and to really put it in perspective, It seems that the first use of 'the old guard' was Napoleonic france, when it was used to refer to the elements of the military that had served 8under the royalty.

Stay Warm,
Lawrence

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RE: The term "Old guard" - 4/27/2004 6:15:51 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

My definition of old guard is the true 24/7 master slave relationship where the slave turns over all responsibility to her master. Simple as that.

Thank you for your definition of Old Guard.

As was stated elsewhere, the term originated in the leather gay community and involved a training approach which was extremely strict and unyeilding. I have read some of the practices (BDSM 101, etc) but I do not profess to be an expert, but this term does have a rather specific meaning in a public BDSM forum.

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RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/4/2004 11:27:38 PM

Sinergy

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I wanted to thank you for the well-considered and informative post. I did have one issue with this comment...

quote:

Life is never as pre-calculated as "historians" want us to believe. Human culture grows by ebbs and flows, by trial and error, by ideas rejected as well as accepted.

I am a historian, with specialization in the war in Vietnam as well as ancient Europe. I have never in my entire time working in that field ever considered life to be pre-calculated. Other branches of research try to prove "why" something happened, ethical historians merely record "what" happened to the best of their research abilities.

Perhaps it was my specialty, but nothing about the entire war in Vietnam could ever be considered "pre-calculated."

Sinergy

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RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/4/2004 11:35:58 PM

Estring

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I have to say, this is one thread that after reading all the postings, I am more confused than I was at the beginning.

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RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/5/2004 6:27:41 AM

Sinergy

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quote:

After WWII, men were at times at a loss. Their sexuality that sometimes was discovered and the regimen found in the troups of WWII, the uniforms ect...

Prior to World War 2, women in the United States had not considered anything other than working to raise a family. When their husbands went off to war, the women were asked to work in the factory to build the items needed for that war. When the war ended and the men came home, the women had come to realize that they could work to support themselves. In this paradigm shift, the power dynamic in the relationship had changed dramatically, which had repercussions on the sexual and otherwise relationship. Men were at a loss because their wives had been submissive and reliant on their care when they went to war, and when they came home the power dynamic was completely different.

I tend to disagree that the Leather era took a lot of it's stylings from WW2 uniforms. I think a lot of the WW2 uniforms (especially in the German army) tried to hit on a look that meant certain things to a person's limbic system.

As regards their sexuality. War has been described as the world's greatest aphrodisiac. Sexuality was kept in the closet and not openly discussed until the late 1960s / early 1970s (Second Wave of Feminism). However, the men who had been screwing like bunnies as they invaded Pacific Island and Europe came home to a relationship where the rules prior to the war and during the war (regarding their sexuality) no longer applied.

Regards,

Sinergy

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RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/5/2004 7:17:21 AM

LadyBeckett

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

The basic facts are that it orginated in the leather gay community

I'm just going to include some links and information here for those who are interested in learning more about "Old Guard", although (according to all of my information) what Sylerdawn has said is true. Everything that she said was true.

When I was a girl, which was a lonnnnnnnng time ago, my Uncle served a rather rough looking Mistress by the name of Babe who wore a leather jacket, leather pants, knee high leather boots, and always had a riding crop stuck down in the side of one of them. Under all of that leather she was 5'6", maybe 130 pounds, with waist length blonde hair, and a Dominant Woman. I was raised in the lifestyle, but Babe always stood out from the rest for some reason.

I'm not like Babe, but I certainly learned a lot from her, and absolutely respect and honor her and those like her. Just for the fact that we have as much freedom as we do today, to practice our lifestyle as we choose, and as much information available to learn from and share, as we do.

Old Guard? New Guard?
The Hanky Code
The Old Days
The "Myth" of Old Guard by Jack Rinella

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RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/5/2004 11:17:18 AM

stormiKnightBEAR

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It would be interesting to see how many of the folks here who proclaim to know so much about the Old Guard and the Leather Lifestyle <yes folks, they are one in the same> actually LIVE the lifestyle.

In fact, stormi will step out one further. IF any of YOU want to come to Dallas Texas and hear first hand about OLD GUARD and/or the Leather Lifestyle, email [email protected]. If enough are interested, stormi knows who to contact to set that and a play party up. And most likely could get her Leather Brothers to be a part of it. Including the INTERNATIONAL MASTER/slave 2004.

As there is not one person that stormi calls family that is not interested in educating anyone or listening to their questions or just flat out sharing how they life the lifestyle and how they came about their protocols and such.

So if you are interested..... email stormi.

BTW, Lady Beckett hats off to you!! You're first class from this prespective.

In Leather Proudly,
stormi
property of Master Bear

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RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/7/2004 12:26:38 AM

Sinergy

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quote:

Consider... you may have chosen Gorean rituals, terminologies, precepts, and practices as the blueprint for your D/s lifestyle. Yet, are you restricted in what you choose by what Norman wrote in his texts?

Perhaps a solution would be to call it "Waffle House Rules" instead of Old Guard.

The problem with using a term like "Old Guard" to describe Gorean rituals (for example) is that the term "Old Guard" already means something to a great number of people involved in the BDSM lifestyle, as does using the term "Gorean" to describe something else. You can call a cat a lemon if you like, but you wont get lemonade when you squeeze it; I know a good plastic surgeon if you try this at home.

Gorean rituals originated in John Norman's books. If he used the term "Old Guard" in them then that usage would be defined by the usage in the books. The fact that the term "Old Guard" refers to and was used prior to something which predates the publishing of the first Gorean novel leads me (my opinion here) to believe that Old Guard did not originate with John Norman's Gorean novels.

Peace out,

Sinergy

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RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/7/2004 12:41:10 AM

Estring

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Old Guard actually came from how a sub or slave would look like an " old guard " after an intense session. The Master would then have to use aftercare to make them look like " new guards " again. I am sure I read this somewhere, but I don't remember where. Maybe I didn't read it. Maybe I heard it. I can't remember when I heard it. Maybe I dreamt it. It's the truth though.

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RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/7/2004 9:03:21 AM

MstrMrW

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quote:

Old Guard actually came from how a sub or slave would look like an " old guard " after an intense session. The Master would then have to use aftercare to make them look like " new guards " again. I am sure I read this somewhere, but I don't remember where. Maybe I didn't read it. Maybe I heard it. I can't remember when I heard it. Maybe I dreamt it. It's the truth though.

Makes as much sense as any of the other definitions

Personally, I think the term will mean whatever you, the user, decide it to mean - to some it will mean the ubersecret European society of slavery, to others a means of differentiating between 'mainly leather' and 'gorean' lifestyle types.

To me, and I do not expect anyone else to subscribe to or even agree with my viewpoint, old guard means a more strict, protocol and rules driven relationship that also incorporates more bondage and 'discipline' and S&M activities (more of a 'slavery' type deal), whereas Gorean means a more service and ritual based relationship with only light/symbolic bondage and 'discipline and S&M activities' only used as punishments (more of a 'submissive' type deal).

I tend to utilize parts of BOTH 'old guard' and 'gorean' (based on my definitions) in my lifestyle, but thats what works for me - and I dont insist that anyone else live by MY definitions - each person is going to decide what the terms mean to them no matter what any originial definition may have been, IMNTBHO.

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RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/17/2004 12:32:06 AM

MASTERB4U

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Read an n interesting comment today after arriving her about old guard. What is it or does it in fact exist. Curious question and simple answer to it.

Many believe that it does not exist and is myth folklore or bullshit. And that’s their right to do so and have such opinions as they chose. Like most of this lifestyle today and what it has become being the hypocritical sexist lust driven dating service for those who think they are different or have a rebellious streak. Some though are genuine in this and live it as it is and for the reasons it is

The question was Old Guard and does it exist it does and the proof of it is easy to find if we look past or dicks and lust. Or in the case of females an excuse to, for many allows them self, to dress and act like sluts and say it was all part of the lifestyle.

Many could not for those reason exist in this lifestyle as it was designed. See it was not about sex. Oh shit did I say that it was about control and passing limits to better understand self and desires? Part of this was ritual. Part of this later became broadened to include other ritual and still today it goes on changing into some thing it was never intended to be.

Old Guard is the formal aspect of the lifestyle the ritual we all like and the order to this lifestyle. It is not a group it is a concept and a belief in an order and a method and reasoning in why and how.

Have any of you bothered to look at the beginnings of the lifestyle it was based on a master and slave one passive and one dominant. The positive and negative of it. It was based on the rules that governed that and the codes of conduct for it. Oh yes lets hear of the American slave trade. There were indentured slaves before that by a long time and slaves before that since the beginning of time they have existed and there is in that a common goal and desire and it is genetic. It is to rule or be ruled simple no more no less.

This set of rules from the beginning of time and the responsibility of each to the other in that life was what bound them together It was done with honor and understanding of ones position and place each treated with respect and dignity for their devotion and dedication to that genetic trait of either master or slave Long standing rights of each / and responsibilities of the other to that. .

All most very one seems to think BDSM D/s S/m is all about some kind of physical thing a visual stimulation or sexual gratification. No one seems to remember past that. Old Guard is that part that is forgot it is the ritual we use in all for this lifestyle. It is the methods and devices that allow it to occur. It is the things that stimulate these séances.

That in part is Old Guard. Old Guard it the traditions of this lifestyle in part but most have forgotten what this lifestyle is about. It is about altered consciousness and attaining a plane above the realm of here.

Old Guard is the teachings that allow that level to occur and the methodology that it encompasses. Old Guard s the methodology that allows this to occur ritual and tools

To many people her are going what he hell is he talking about and what it is the ability to induce in a slave a state of altered consciousness

That is what it was about and still is that is what Old Guard is about

They even got a new name for what this is about and what it is called and hay guess what it is a myth as well as to weather or not it is real ok. But hay it may be real.

Look I know I have confused a lot of you so ill make it simple here. The traditions devices and means of this lifestyle are what Old Guard is and it is a designed and for a specific thing for one purpose and that is to arrive for the participant’s weather broth of them or the slave and aultered state of conciousness. Simple as that

It is the teachings of that concept and origins for this life style and the means to attain it and what it is done for, as there is an order and reason for all things.

Ok so say you understand aloof that but what the hell is this altered state you speak of and prove that exist s and have I can except the rest sort of attitude oar there is the other. What the hell you fool talking about if it aunt about the sex or the control or the serving that what is it about.

As I said an altered state of consciousness simple t is a mind thing and that is what the Old Guard deals wit h. That swath the rituals are for like in Japans rope bondage. Hell most of you though it was a style of teeing another up when it is much more then that it creates a mental state for both involved. Same as say Yoga Does or Trance State does. This is just a different means of getting to the same place but has become something else

OK enough your boring me right what the hell is this trance state and if it exists what is it like or about and if so lets see you prove it. Well it is real ask any sub /slave /doom /switch that has experienced ire as any of them are able to. Not just the slave /sub. It is called Subspace and is very real.

That is the altered state and it is the ritual that creates it. It is not about anything other then arriving at that or both participants

If oyu wish t o ask me omer on this feel free to at [email protected] or here weather in a post or message im listed under masterb4u in dominant

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RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/17/2004 12:49:53 AM

Estring

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Your letter changed my consciousness. It put me to sleep. You make this lifestyle sound completely boring. Like it is only for old farts. I know nothing about "Old Guard", but to me this lifestyle is vibrant, sexual, stimulating and extremely exciting. At its best it brings a closeness not possible in a vanilla setting.
Remembering where we came from is fine. But looking ahead to where we are going is more important. Otherwise it is just nostalgia.

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RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/17/2004 1:22:00 AM

Sinergy

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quote:

All most very one seems to think BDSM D/s S/m is all about some kind of physical thing a visual stimulation or sexual gratification

It is difficult to read this post since it is filled with generalities and vague references to some undefined body politic.

I do not think BDSM D/s S/m is some kind of blah, and the majority of the people I interact with dont either, so I have difficulty with the comment "most (e)very one"
as well as the general tone of your letter criticizing practioners of BDSM D/s S/m in the modern world.

I feel bad that based on your experience with the people you have interacted with you have determined these things to be true, but I would ask that you not imply that these are factual and apply to all (or even many, unless you would like to offer up specific empirical evidence to support it) BDSM practitioners.

Peace out,

Sinergy

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RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/17/2004 3:07:29 AM

inyouagain

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Let's hear about slavebells... why not, yay!

Hey, did you get a new keyboard?

Inyouagain

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RE: The term "Old guard" - 5/17/2004 9:31:49 AM

proudsub

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Can't we still enjoy BDSM without being a part of the "old guard", without following specific protocals, without being a member of a defined group? I know Master (hubby) and i do.

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