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RE: The term "Old guard" - 7/18/2004 5:48:55 AM   
PeggyO


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Hello everyone,

For those who are interested in leather history and Old Guard, Gayle Rubin wrote a very good article on it.

Here is a link to it

http://www.peggyakao.com/oldguardgaylerubin.htm

Happy reading.

Peggy O

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RE: The term "Old guard" - 7/18/2004 6:36:08 AM   
SherriA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeggyO
For those who are interested in leather history and Old Guard, Gayle Rubin wrote a very good article on it.

http://www.peggyakao.com/oldguardgaylerubin.htm


Thanks for sharing that Peggy. It was a very interesting and informative read.

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

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RE: The term "Old guard" - 7/18/2004 11:08:52 PM   
baileythorne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeggyO

Hello everyone,




Welcome to CollarMe.com :-) We met before in San Francisco
at Michael's house.

Hope you are enjoying Jacksonville.

--bailey

_____________________________

Dance like no one's watching and
Love like you've never been hurt.

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RE: The term "Old guard" - 11/30/2007 4:42:12 PM   
masterlink65


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old guard started post world war. has nothing to do with gor. may be mentioned in gor, but is older than gor. very little is mentioned about old guard, it is a secret society of rites of passage, respect, service. there are variations of "guard", new guard, modified guard. to say old guard didnt or doesnt exist is simply not true. it is mainly in, but not limited to the gay community. lancelake had it close as your gonna get it unless you submit to training from and actual old guard, and earn your way to where it is you need to be as a slave.

(in reply to Samos)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: The term "Old guard" - 11/30/2007 6:41:50 PM   
Machts


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Gor was written to make John Lange money.

A brief synopsis of the man himself.

http://www.rdrop.com/~/wyvern/john.norman.html

Look up the name "Guy Baldwin" for some realistic insights on gay leather.

Google is your friend, we should not have to do your research for you.


(in reply to Samos)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: The term "Old guard" - 12/1/2007 12:32:59 AM   
masterlink65


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thank you, now can we stick to the subject matter of this thread?

there is a gorean section on here for those interested in science fiction

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RE: The term "Old guard" - 12/1/2007 2:51:25 AM   
shootingstar67


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LrdSatyr8

quote:

ORIGINAL: ModeratorTwo

As for "Old Guard" and the Gorean novels... I can tell you right now the expression in the sense meant here is not in any of those books, and has nothing to do with them.


Well... speaking from almost 20 years of experience here, I know for a fact that the term "Old Guard" first appeared in the Gor series of books, but as I said before, over the years the term has been used by not only by the Gorean community but by the BDSM community as well and the meaning of it has changed. However, my main point is that it is mostly used by the newbie wannabe trolls to make them appear more knowledgeable about the lifestyle then they actually are. I haven't met very many serious BDSMers who have been in the lifestyle real time that use the term "Old Guard" to discribe themselves or how they were trained or came to know the lifestyle, which is why I gave the warning.

quote:


Sound advice. Whatever people feel to be the origin or level of seriousness behind the words... they have in many ways been hijacked by those wishing to sound impressive... just as is the case with any who think latching onto a catch phrase or particular image somehow gives them the fast road to being "somebody"... whatever the context may be.


I agree with you totally on that regard. [EDIT]
-=> Satyr! <=-


ed. You have already been asked to refrain from this sort of thing.


I have had this misfortune to read ALL the Gor books

I have to say "Old Guard" is not a term that appeared.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: The term "Old guard" - 12/1/2007 2:23:47 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: shootingstar67


I have had this misfortune to read ALL the Gor books

I have to say "Old Guard" is not a term that appeared.


Just an FYI. This thread is almost 4 years old and LordSatyr8 hasn't been on collarme in 11 months.

Celeste

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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: The term "Old guard" - 12/24/2010 7:53:03 AM   
bobbliestut2


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Beyond its use in the BDSM community, the Old Guard is a military unit which helps protect the President and various Washington monuments. It is a member of the Old Guard, changing duty frequently, who patrols the tomb of the unknown solder 24/7.

(in reply to Samos)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: The term "Old guard" - 12/24/2010 8:17:05 AM   
DarkSteven


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Welcome to collarme, bobbliestut.

You might have noticed BitaTruble's post above saying that the thread was four years old.  That comment was three years old.  It's generally frowned upon to resurrect ancient threads, especially for something not really germane.


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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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Profile   Post #: 110
RE: The term "Old guard" - 12/24/2010 8:25:11 AM   
GreedyTop


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wow.. serious necrothread!!

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Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

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RE: The term "Old guard" - 12/24/2010 8:50:18 AM   
hausboy


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Folks:
May I suggest that on your next vacation to Chicago, you stop and visit the National Leather Archives and Museum?

What we now associate with "Old Guard"-both the term and what it implies--existed long before Norman's body of works, and while the author certainly may have lived during that time in leather history, he is not credited with the creation of the term "Old Guard"--but I'm certainly willing to check with the archives division of the NLA to verify this.

"Old Guard" stemmed from the gay leathermen's community--and the term "community" is used loosely here.  It was subculture in the truest sense of the word, and unlike the BDSM cultures of today (they are hardly subcultures anymore when you can find their evidence walking into a strip mall), you didn't have "rules" written down, posted on the internet.  Arising from the 1940's--and establishing itself in the 1950's--the various subcultures both in the Leather subculture (and within the Lesbian community, the butch/femme subculture) their "rules" if you will, were almost a reflection of the society itself.  The rigid male/female roles found in American 1940/1950 life expanded into rigid sexual and relationship roles within both the lesbian world and the leather one, and what you call "rules" essentially was a code of conduct for those in the culture.   They were inherent...spoken.....and the "enforcement" if you will, was entirely dependent upon those living within the culture.  Those who did not conform to that code could find themselves outcast or pushed out of the subculture through social exclusion.

Part of that subculture that is most often associated with "Old Guard" values--and from my understanding, it is this particular "value" that is most connected to Gorean lifestyle--is the tenet that a Master is always a Master--trained by other Masters in the ways of sadism and such.  And just our society's rigid structure of male and female roles began to break down in the 60's--and a gay liberation surfaced in the 1970's--those rigid roles, codes of conduct and ways of the past began to fade into history.   They transitioned from a strict social code to a suggestive one--and just as the next generation of sexually liberated men and women broke those boundaries, the leather community started to morph into a more diverse and less rigid structure.

Used often when I was coming out into the gay leather communtiy in the late 1980's, "Old Guard" often was the term used to refer to those who preferred to adhere to the "old ways of thinking" of who held what role, how were they trained and how they carried themselves.  Same as "Old School" -- it became much more of an adjective applied to the philosophy as much as the practice itself.

"New Guard" was coined by a newer generation of leatherfolk who refused to accept the rigidity that those Old Guard tenets required, and those who identified as Switches clearly flew in the face of convention in that regard.  It's really sad to me that what I have seen lately, both in the Queer S/M communties and the Straight ones, is that "Old Guard" has become something of an insult or a dirty word.  The Old Guard is a part of all of our past and history as Leatherfolk and should be embraced as such.

I was brought into the leather world by what we would consider "New Guard"--and many of my colleagues, mentors and friends were Old Guard, leather dinosaurs who entertained me with their reminiscing stories of the leather underground worlds in the 50's.  Sadly, most have passed now--many from AIDS or cancer.  Their verbal histories are lost as well, but all the more reason to support the National Leather Archives and Museum in Chicago.
In any case, I'll contact my various resources to see if I can trace down the actual root of the word.

My apologies: Dark Stteven, you are correct. I just noticed the date on this thread.  If interest surfaces, I'll start a fresh one.


< Message edited by hausboy -- 12/24/2010 8:54:54 AM >

(in reply to Samos)
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RE: The term "Old guard" - 12/24/2010 9:01:53 AM   
mnottertail


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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9OO0S5w2k

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RE: The term "Old guard" - 12/24/2010 11:05:53 PM   
AnimusRex


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I can't say with authority what Old Guard was, or wasn't, or whether it existed or not.

But I can say, based on my observations, what the term is used for, in the here and now.

Most often it is used as a self-applied title and honorific to drape oneself in the aura of authority and gravity, such honor being attained as cheaply as typing the words "Lord" or "Master".

For anyone who happens to actually have been a part of any such Old Guard, my condolences on your organization having been hijacked by horny net geeks.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: The term "Old guard" - 12/24/2010 11:37:26 PM   
LadyPact


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In that case, I'm about to disappoint you, Rex.

I don't ever come here or anywhere else to claim that I am "Old Guard".  That isn't possible for Me.  I wouldn't fit the requirements.  According to "Old Guard", I couldn't even say that I'm a leather person.  I'm not gay.  I'm not male.  I was never 'in service' to anyone's house.

However, I do recognize that there are generations of Old Guard.  Think of it very much in the same way as different generations interpret music.  Once upon a time, rock and roll (the 50's variety) was the new wave.  Anything but an orchestra wasn't right.  In the sixties, the music varied slightly, but the 'oldies but the goodies' were really those one hit wonders from a decade ago.

In the seventies, when disco came, those who loved music from the sixties held to the old music.  The new stuff was crap.  Techno, punk, so much more.

So, this goes on and on.  Each "old" generation fighting against the "new". 

Such it is with leather.

Each generation has a lay to the claim of "Old Guard".  First it was the battle for women.  Then, it was the inclusion of straight people.  Romantic relationships within M/s, poly, the net......  All of these brought new phases.  As each resisted change, the lines were divided by old and new.  Then, there was acclimation.  Right up until the 'new' generation.

In My opinion, it's important for any leather person to know the history and the generations of Old Guard.  Perhaps, I'll even be one version of Old Guard someday.  Either that, or I'll just be some flighty gal who cares more about the spirit of leather.  I'll be happy with either one.

Happy Holiday to you and yours.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: The term "Old guard" - 12/25/2010 8:59:50 AM   
osf


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when was the old guard the new guard?

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i'm not very skilled so i just hit harder

i want a woman to make into the woman she never wanted to become

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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: The term "Old guard" - 12/25/2010 10:03:02 AM   
LadyPact


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Status: offline
It depends on which version of "Old Guard" that you are referring to.  Should you like to read some of the examples above, I would think that you would see how the transitions of the term have applied.  There are plenty of folks who attempt to claim something they are not.  Happens quite often with leather, too.  I tend to get a giggle from it every once in a while.

Of course, I will absolutely defer to Master Skip Casey on the matter.  Senior leatherman to Me and far more knowledgeable on the subject.  While based here in California, he presents on the topic nationwide.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: The term "Old guard" - 12/25/2010 11:15:47 AM   
AnimusRex


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LadyPact-
My intent wasn't to insult anyone who may have been a part of an Old Guard group or family.

My intent was to insult the ones who run around self-identifying themselves as such, spuriously claiming some sort of proud lineage and honor, as a way of cheaply earning such, not much different than guys caging free drinks by claiming to be decorated military veterans.

It is part and parcel with the Old Houses of Europe- whatever the truth of its existance, it has been far overshadowed by hucksters and con artists.

I mean, from what I can gather, Old Guard was chiefly gay leather enthusiasts; how many straight guys have proudly strutted through chatrooms talking about how they have been trained in Old Guard?

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: The term "Old guard" - 12/25/2010 11:28:41 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

LadyPact-
My intent wasn't to insult anyone who may have been a part of an Old Guard group or family.

My intent was to insult the ones who run around self-identifying themselves as such, spuriously claiming some sort of proud lineage and honor, as a way of cheaply earning such, not much different than guys caging free drinks by claiming to be decorated military veterans.

It is part and parcel with the Old Houses of Europe- whatever the truth of its existance, it has been far overshadowed by hucksters and con artists.

I mean, from what I can gather, Old Guard was chiefly gay leather enthusiasts; how many straight guys have proudly strutted through chatrooms talking about how they have been trained in Old Guard?


Rex,

In that case, we're closer on this than you might think.

I'm proud of being leather.  Yes, it's a deadly sin, but here I am.  At the same time, I know the difference between where I stand and those know they are full of shit.


Stupid, silly fools who use the term to get laid?  Sure.  I invite them right here to call them on their shit.

I could bore you for some time regarding what I think a Master or a leatherman should be.  How about we skip the frustration and instead share a greeting of  Merry Christmas?  From My family to yours, Happy Holiday!


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: The term "Old guard" - 12/25/2010 3:42:19 PM   
SimplyMichael


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"old guard" was gay men drinking and fucking in bars, pissing on each other in back rooms and what killed it was contests, titles and the modern trappings of "leather".

Best writup about it is found in a book written by a leatherman in the late 1960s and published in early 1970s called The Leatherman's Handbook. The modern sanitized version of "old guard" makes it seem like something noble and all about formal rituals and all sorts of other modern trappings.

One thing it very much lacks is the silly fantasy of Gor and only someone desperate to try and generate status out of thin air and wrap themselves in some mythical history.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 120
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